Investigation into the false-self

[Bindi]

 

Question: How to find the Atman? [the real self beyond ego or false self, our true self or essence which underlies our existence]

 

Ramana: There is no investigation into the Atman. The investigation can only be into the non-self. Elimination of the non-self is alone possible. The Self being always self evident will shine forth of itself.

 

Talk 78

https://www.scribd.com/document/37258017/Sri-Ramana-Maharshi-KeyPoints

 

 

The removal of ignorance is the aim of practice and not acquisition of Realisation - Ramana

 

Talks, p. 322

Edited January 4, 2017 by Bindi

[3bob]

one can not get or acquire realization like one could get some type of thing to add to themselves like mind based knowledge.  (being that there is nothing that can be added to or subtracted from the Self) 

 

"non-self" is a Buddhist related teaching so it won't really mix with Vedic teachings.

[3bob]

so the problematic dichotomy implied with the term "non-self" vs. Self can tend to drive one nuts...

 

while in comparison Shiva-Shakti tends not drive one nuts.  

[dwai]

one can not get or acquire realization like one could get some type of thing to add to themselves like mind based knowledge. (being that there is nothing that can be added to or subtracted from the Self)

 

"non-self" is a Buddhist related teaching so it won't really mix with Vedic teachings.

We tend to get caught up in labels too much IMHO. Non-self in Vedanta tradition is what is called "jiva"...

[SeekerOfHealing]

It's not that our thoughts are unreal. They exist. But they have evolved over time and created a 'self'. A self that you believe is you.

Once we actually realise this, see this for ourselves, then pop, you're out.

 

There is no self at all. not existence at all. no jivas, no self at all. The self of Ramana is the Dao. 

[dwai]

It's not that our thoughts are unreal. They exist. But they have evolved over time and created a 'self'. A self that you believe is you.

Once we actually realise this, see this for ourselves, then pop, you're out.

 

There is no self at all. not existence at all. no jivas, no self at all. The self of Ramana is the Dao.

That is the Self. One without an other. All else is just appearances

[Bindi]

Allowing that we have accepted that the false self/true self essence dichotomy is real, then the only difference in practices seems to be how this dichotomy can be resolved in favour of the true self essence.

 

Ramana seems to suggest that by looking only at the false self this false self can be dismantled bit by bit until it is eliminated, and I would fundamentally agree with this position.

[3bob]

umm, who or what is looking at this "false self" and who or what is doing the dismantling?   (thus we tend to have another mind blowing quandary)

[3bob]

Dwai, I wouldn't make such a quick correlation with jiva,  although it may be tempting to simply things - but not per the Buddhists as I've so often heard.

[3bob]

Seeker of Healing,  Post #5 is the standard line given by many Buddhists - there is a problem with it though being that this is a Hindu sub-forum where Buddhist beliefs may be tolerated to an 'x' degree but imo they are really out of place if or when rudely given as a truism over Sanatana Dharma.

Edited January 6, 2017 by 3bob

[dwai]

Dwai, I wouldn't make such a quick correlation with jiva, although it may be tempting to simply things - but not per the Buddhists as I've so often heard.

Well the jiva is not the true self per advaita Vedanta. It is the limited self, governed by the limiting adjuncts like body, mind, etc.

[3bob]

Ok,  kind of sounds like you see ParaSiva and the 36* tattvas with connection in the sense of aspects?  

(*even though there are some differences in Hindu schools concerning the count and placement of tattvas)

[dwai]

Ok, kind of sounds like you see ParaSiva and the 36* tattvas with connection in the sense of aspects?

(*even though there are some differences in Hindu schools concerning the count and placement of tattvas)

I'm not quite well versed in Shaiva concepts...however if I consider for a moment the tanmatras and tattvas of samkhya, then those too fall in the domain of duality. They might be very great as metaphysics, but doesn't do anything from absolute nonduality pov, IMHO.

[3bob]

Regardless of particular schools and if one refers to the Chandogya Upanishad (as an example) they "spring" from the Self, thus are not separate from the transcendant.

[Bindi]

umm, who or what is looking at this "false self" and who or what is doing the dismantling?   (thus we tend to have another mind blowing quandary)

 

I think my mind is doing the looking and the unhooking of itself from identification with the 5 koshas/sheaths.

[dwai]

Regardless of particular schools and if one refers to the Chandogya Upanishad (as an example) they "spring" from the Self, thus are not separate from the transcendant.

Indeed...but also they are creations of our own Self, which is nothing but pure consciousness

Edited January 6, 2017 by dwai

[3bob]

Bindi, Is not mind one of those koshas?  Granted mind is very important but still not true identity.  (btw. and as you know there is the Buddhist teaching that says consciousness is an aggregate so if we go by that teaching (which I don't) consciousness is not going to cut it either when it comes to 'looking or unhooking".

[Bindi]

What if the mind as we know it can be reformed, not dismissed as illusory or monkey mind and ignored. When mind is educated by instructions from a deeper level, it can learn to see the illusions it labours under, and it can come to understand its role in relation to the Eternal Self.
 
A cleared mind should be under no illusion that it is the true identity, to me though it plays a vital role in the process of slowly shifting our perspective from duality to non-duality and the perspective of the Eternal Self. 
 
 

Mental - Manamaya kosha 

The next of the koshas is Manamaya kosha. Mana means mind. It is the level of processing thoughts and emotions. It is in direct control of the operation, through the prana, of the physical body and senses. It is like a supervisor in a factory, in that it gives instructions, but is not supposed to be the manager of the factory of life. Because of this, it naturally has doubts, and created illusions. When it receives clear instructions from the deeper level, it functions quite well. However, when it is clouded over by its illusions, the deeper wisdom is clouded over.
 
After taking care of the physical body and training the energy flow of prana, the most important part to be trained in positive ways is this level of mind. In meditation, we become aware of Manamaya kosha, explore it, and then go inward, to and through the remaining koshas.
 
http://www.swamij.com/koshas.htm

Edited January 7, 2017 by Bindi

[3bob]

Bindi,

Nice quote and post with #18!  Also with the term reformed that you used I'd add unified - as in not at war or at odds with its functions.  As for mind shifting perspective that is one way to put it, another is that as our minds settle down or clear awareness/consciousness/being is then not so divided or caught-up and can see into, through and even beyond mind forms.

Edited January 7, 2017 by 3bob