How much time do you need to recieve a transmission?

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Cultivating in traditional Daoism is a sequential process with stages need to passed one by one.

 

One of the first stages is repleneshing yuanqi. The time required to finish this stage depends (among other factors) on student's age. Stages names, like 

• "100 days laying the foundation"
• "3 years of breastfeeding"
• "9 years facing the wall"

all show us the required time. And what if deviations appear? What if student faces some difficulty or even danger in the cultivation process? The Teacher helps him/her. Same in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai Schools.

 

So the process of studying / teaching requires Time.

 

==========================

 

Some forum members using the fact that only few of fellow members know Chinese, post parts of text in hieroglyphs as an "evidence" to their fantasies. As other members are not able to check what is the meaning of these words it becomes possible to fool fellow members.

 

One of the examples has some relation to this topic. "Taoist Texts" claimed in one of previous threads that "Liu Huayang was studying only 3 days from Wu Chongxu", bringing this fragment 

 

“我以四十余年究竟之力而悟，后圣不终三日，彻见而彻知，并解悟二经之法旨，不大便宜耶？”

（《伍柳天仙法脉》，宗教文化出版社，第 13页， 2007版）

 

as an "evidence". Probably it has fooled some fellow members. But what do we actually see in the book mentioned? See the attach - no such words on 13th page.

 

Hope it will help fellow members in distinguishing between truth and lies.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited January 4, 2017 by A.A.Khokhlov

[awaken]

http://m.blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_86bcbe4e0101kz5f.html

 

“据我的经验according to my experience，几十年来，for several decades几乎连打好百日基础的人都没有。almost no one can make the basis well如果这个基础（百日筑基）都没有的话，if you don't have the basis所有理论都是空谈。——all the theories are all nonsense 南怀瑾”

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Huai-Chin

 

Can you tell us how is your foundation now?

 

Have you built it now?

Edited January 4, 2017 by awaken

[Arkady Shadursky]

awaken, we know your position well.

You are contradicting yourself.

Please stop fighting against Tradition and try to learn something new for you.

 

Also please don't spam this thread again with your nonsense.

 

Probably your logic could be back to normal one day and you will recognize your mistakes.

Let it be.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

Edited January 4, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[MIchael80]

Hi A.A. Khoklov!

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Really cannot see the posts from awaken anymore.....it starts to really annoy me!

 

My question:

As far as i know yuanjing is replenished in the "laying the foundations stage". But now you say that that yuanqi is one of the first things to replenish. So i am curious:

Is yuanjing replenished before yuanqi or are they replenished at the same time?

 

Thanks in advance!

best

Michael

[SeekerOfHealing]

yuan jing must come in contact with primordial Qi to generate yuan qi and then reverting the five elements happen. The way of happening or mechanics of reverting are called yang xia.

 

when laying the foundation is finished you actually have no thoughts or emptiness state without any focus or anything like that and feel very healthy. It's like you hear very clearly and sounds are making you feel good, you see very clearly like in ultra HD or as you took LSD, very sharp and alive. It's just happy blissful, peaceful state.

 

If you enter ru jing then true fire appear and evolve your shi shen into yuan shen. etc... Mechanics are boring, you do not even need to know this as it will happen whatever you know it or not if you have proper methods.

 

The thing is only yuan shen can transfrom yuan jing into yuan qi. That's why I said everybody cultivating appearances not true substance.

Edited January 4, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[Kar3n]

You are suggesting, saying, that if one has not "passed" tests of your particular system one does not know Dao? Or, they do not know the teachings of the system in a practical sense and therefore can not or should not comment on it?

 

I can totally get on board with a person believing in a system that has benefited and enriched their life, but what is a huge red flag for me is when it is said that there is only one way to get to know the Dao.

 

I think having a teacher is important for sharing openings and experiences with and receiving feedback. The Dao is the real teacher, in every case, without exception as far as I am concerned. 

 

Having an open enough heart and being still have been the only obstacles I have seen in myself and others that hold us back, not time.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Yes, there is only one way to get Dao - thru mind and body and energy, no other way. That's why concept of true teacher or true schools is fake. I said it in other topic - Wu Liu Pai creates false feeling in you of superiority.

 

How did teachers of their teachers know the Dao? thru 3 things - mind, body and energy. There is no other way, one way but Wu Liu Paist and other people want to portray that one way is that way of their brand. You can only know Dao thru those 3 things and reverse process to One (Dao). You do not even need to meditate or do any practice really to get the Dao.

Edited January 4, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[Kar3n]

I am in no way bashing their system of practice, I have zero experience with it.  

 

I do know the Dao well enough to know that WLP and the practitioners are part of the "10,000 things", therefore no different in the "eyes of Dao" than any other of the 9,999 things.

 

When we step out of the shadow of Dao it creates separation, this is when the finger pointing that one is right and the other is wrong starts. Not very Dao-like if anyone is asking...

 

[damdao]

I think we can wonder what time and times are needed at all.

Time is in the very core of practice and should be not dismissed. Either to follow it or to conquer it.

So in this vein we have in Sant Mat we have to overcome Kal o relative time.

In Buddhism one of the most advanced teachins is called Kalacakra, Wheel of Time, or Cycles of Time.

Patañjali too speaks about knowing the minutest subdivision of time (ksana) as a very achievement. 

Chinese either in medicine or in neidan follow the way (among others) of four season, namely: plant a seed, growing a plant, colletcs the fruits and store them.

This is one of the main reason for those schedules that are traditional in chinese thought and schools. Because "time" is not only duration but the several processes that happen inside those periods, mainly.

[Kar3n]

I think we can wonder what time and times are needed at all.

Time is in the very core of practice and should be not dismissed. Either to follow it or to conquer it.

So in this vein we have in Sant Mat we have to overcome Kal o relative time.

In Buddhism one of the most advanced teachins is called Kalacakra, Wheel of Time, or Cycles of Time.

Patañjali too speaks about knowing the minutest subdivision of time (ksana) as a very achievement. 

Chinese either in medicine or in neidan follow the way (among others) of four season, namely: plant a seed, growing a plant, colletcs the fruits and store them.

This is one of the main reason for those schedules that are traditional in chinese thought and schools. Because "time" is not only duration but the several processes that happen inside those periods, mainly.

 

 The bolded statement is exactly what I am referring to, except that I would say, neither to follow it or conquer it.

 

I, personally, have no desires for accolades that passing tests or proving myself to my peers brings. I do not think the Dao really requires such things, but it is the systems of practices that folks have created that do, and documenting time based realizations and openings seem to be of importance and what creates separation. How can anyone who truly believes in or follows the Dao separate themselves so far from others even when there is disagreement?

 

It should not matter if it takes someone 30 minutes, 30 years or 30 lifetimes to realize the Dao, only that they do and are able to grow in it to realize there is no separation of the 10,000 things is what is important to me.

 

The Dao has no beginning and has no end...

[dawei]

You can only know Dao thru those 3 things and reverse process to One (Dao). You do not even need to meditate or do any practice really to get the Dao.

 

This seems a bit of a narrow road... Dao is so vast, it is in everything.  That would suggest everything can (and likely should) know Dao.  

 

So do you want to say that to 'know Dao' may be something more of a teaching or traditional position ?  Like when Zhuangzi said 'xyz attained Dao' ?

 

The problem with your statement is that it only covers certain traditions and paths... there are some that don't follow your formula.  That is all I am saying...  But I do agree with your last comment.

[[email protected]]

http://m.blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_86bcbe4e0101kz5f.html

 

“据我的经验according to my experience，几十年来，for several decades几乎连打好百日基础的人都没有。almost no one can make the basis well如果这个基础（百日筑基）都没有的话，if you don't have the basis所有理论都是空谈。——all the theories are all nonsense 南怀瑾”

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Huai-Chin

 

Can you tell us how is your foundation now?

 

Have you built it now?

I can not read chinese signs, is it possible to escape this, I guess its not only me who does not understand your messages? Could you translate before posting messages?

Rgrds, Ilya

[SeekerOfHealing]

We can now know things only thru our perception which is related to those 3 things, we can not know Dao otherwise.

 

I will quote classic "The road is narrow"

 

How do you want to see it otherwise? For example signals are vast too but radio can only receive signal as it's own hardware-software. Dao can be vast but we are limited to our perception, so Dao can be only known thru our tools which are inherent.

Edited January 4, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[dawei]

I can not read chinese signs, is it possible to escape this, I guess its not only me who does not understand your messages? Could you translate before posting messages?

Rgrds, Ilya

 

The OP wrote about "foundation"... she asked about "foundation"... I'd just re-read carefully... and decide if the question is something you can answer...

[dawei]

We can now know things only thru our perception which is related to those 3 things, we can not know Dao otherwise.

 

I will quote classic "The road is narrow"

 

How do you want to see it otherwise? For example signals are vast too but radio can only receive signal as it's own hardware-software. Dao can be vast but we are limited to our perception, so Dao can be only known thru our tools which are inherent.

 

I'm only trying to point out that even your explanation is built within some boundaries of tradition and path...  although I really like to read your posts as they are broader than most.

 

Now, you clever put back my comment but still did not really explain what you mean by 'know Dao'.  

 

So the person who naturally follows their nature; eating when hungry and sleeping when tired... does not know Dao ?

 

Or are you talking about a higher order understanding?  That is what I hoped to understand from your comments.

 

I will also share, there are traditions/practices/paths/destinies that are not getting there by 'reversal'...   Have you read anything on the topics of XYP here?   This is much closer to my path and some others I know, or even those in daoist magic.   In principle, it is a deity path.   While maybe very little understood and less the road followed, it exists... very narrow indeed.

 

Also, I see a fun paradox in, 'the road is narrow'... if one takes the ancient meaning of Dao as path or road... The Dao is narrow...

[Alwayslearning26]

We can now know things only thru our perception which is related to those 3 things, we can not know Dao otherwise.

 

I will quote classic "The road is narrow"

 

How do you want to see it otherwise? For example signals are vast too but radio can only receive signal as it's own hardware-software. Dao can be vast but we are limited to our perception, so Dao can be only known thru our tools which are inherent.

I just wanted to say, I love your default picture, did you get it from the web?

[SeekerOfHealing]

Dank Taoist memes, my favorite site on facebook.

[dawei]

I dunno. With Daoism, it is comprehensive. If it is supposed to be a religion that is meant to refine everything about you, then it will need to involve everything: body, mind, and energy.

 

Does everything include the deities, spirits, and entities that visit/inhabit the manifest world... and that some have contact with them?

 

Whether that is a part of body, mind, or energy may be splitting hairs.. and why it is easier to just ask my question

[SeekerOfHealing]

 

I'm only trying to point out that even your explanation is built within some boundaries of tradition and path...  although I really like to read your posts as they are broader than most.

 

Now, you clever put back my comment but still did not really explain what you mean by 'know Dao'.  

 

So the person who naturally follows their nature; eating when hungry and sleeping when tired... does not know Dao ?

 

Or are you talking about a higher order understanding?  That is what I hoped to understand from your comments.

 

I will also share, there are traditions/practices/paths/destinies that are not getting there by 'reversal'...   Have you read anything on the topics of XYP here?   This is much closer to my path and some others I know, or even those in daoist magic.   In principle, it is a deity path.   While maybe very little understood and less the road followed, it exists... very narrow indeed.

 

Also, I see a fun paradox in, 'the road is narrow'... if one takes the ancient meaning of Dao as path or road... The Dao is narrow...

 

 

 

Okay let me explain little more. Dao is unlimited and vast and can not be named as everything/nothing (those are only fingers pointing to the Moon not Moon itself). Knowing the Dao is Yang Shen = Immortal/Clear/Pure/Positive (no suffering) depends on the meaning of the "Yang" and "Shen" which means generally wisdom. People think it's just some kind of immortal body but not any form can be immortal so I discard concept of immortality in the sense your consciousness can not be saved upon death even if you cultivate golden/purple/rainbow pill or whatever because it's product of taji so it also subject of cessation.

 

What I actually experienced which I believe is Dao. which means you become transformed totally by knowing true nature of ourselves and dream-like state and then when dream become conscious you can manifest yourself thousand different ways when your wisdom backs to the source. It would make sense to me as explanation of traditional stages because as you become non physical you develop different type or consciousness which is not related to taji (or discover as it can not be product of effort, rather of understanding/wisdom/insight)

 

So knowing the Dao is knowing that you are not the body nor mind, then when you realize that on experimental level not only intellectual level the mysterious gate opens up and you are knower of the Dao. Dao can be known, can be seen and from that perspective I can speak. There is something like Dao, enlightenment or whatever you name it (but you can not name it tho really as it will automatic generate conceptions/opinions which you gathered before when someone mentions it and your mind will trying to fit it into our framing if it's not fitting your framing the argue starts)

 

There is actually way to know what buddhist called "central core of entire world/conventional reality", when are you feeling of being or sense perception of this reality ceases to be so, what we took as real becomes unreal and what was unreal becomes real. Silence becomes sound and sound becomes silence. Reverting the light as is said in Golden Flower.

 

So you can just know the Dao if your perception is clear. Dao is actually withing this body - that why no need of true teachers or anything like that if you are attentive enough you can actually directly see the Dao and become immortal in one split second or even less. The other practices are just to open you up to Dao and then use different methods to transform you but those are what I call cultivating illusion and appearances.

 

You said "So the person who naturally follows their nature; eating when hungry and sleeping when tired... does not know Dao ?"

 

Knowing the Dao is beyond Taji, you get out of the Taji into Wuji, so those things does not matter any more, you are not limited to the eating and sleeping, this is only things which contributing into sustaining the body. Dao is not the body nor is the mind. Dao is beyond those two and Dao is inherent, here and now so to speak but we are tend to focus on our imagination, thoughts and beliefs systems rather then discard it all and start from scratch with sincere heart. Like if you understand the Dao is here, your mind natural start to look for it - most people "think" or "thinking for it, not really looking or searching. It's here all the time, but you are looking in wrong places. The more Dao become visible and the more Dao you know, the less and less real this world becomes - when less real world becomes till materiality is exhausted you enter wuji and become immortal, but formless immortal like a space without start and end and this is not bubbling and rambling of some crazy person. It's generally back to sanity, to the original nature things really happen like that. It's so unbelievable that I would never even think about it, you can not image this you can not even think about it.

 

If you try to think about it in terms I try to explain you will go nuts, crazy or get anxiety. It's need to be confronted directly.

 

So knowing the Dao is just this, knowing your original nature which is not limited to this body and mind and can be known instantly if you have no obstacles into perception or dust in eye.

 

 

Actually the easiest thing to know the Dao is that you can hear the Dao. You can actually grasp the Dao thru hearing.

Edited January 4, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[Ormus]

Time is relative and quantum phisics say interesting things about it.

If we look hagiografies of oldest Immortals and Masters majority of them recive transmission in one day or in short meeting.When they recive it,then it is other story and for cultivation they need "time" like A.A.K mention on the first page.But this is time for work complete process and not time for transmission as topic say.

When we look youngest generation of Immortals from the time Nei Dan was created in VIII century we again see that transsmision can happen for one single day and by chance.For example look the case of founder of Quanzhen( to which WLP is sub-branch) Master Wang Chongyang by chance meet in tavern(he was alcoholic addict) two Immortals Zhongli Quan and Lu Dong Bin(he also liked much red wine and nice ladys) and they give him there transsmision and left.He never meet them again,but he continued his cultivation alone.How about that?Or I need to post other examples?

 

Regarding 9 years facing the wall,I think that initiated people know that this dont mean realy 9 years unmoving facing the wall,but it referes to cultivation of Yang Shen(so number 9 for Pure Yang) and occasional seating meditation in isolation for certain time.

 

If we see what Patriarch of Longmen Pai Master Liu I Ming say(other masters say the same)......100 days,3 years,9 years and 10.000 things are just symbolic and used by masters when they whant to express time,but also they say it is diferent for every individual.

 

Ormus

[grassmountiansage]

even if you cultivate golden/purple/rainbow pill or whatever because it's product of taji so it also subject of cessation.

 

Yes for that is a higher training beyond those mentioned that correlate directly to the immortal realm.....

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Hi A.A. Khoklov!

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Really cannot see the posts from awaken anymore.....it starts to really annoy me!

 

My question:

As far as i know yuanjing is replenished in the "laying the foundations stage". But now you say that that yuanqi is one of the first things to replenish. So i am curious:

Is yuanjing replenished before yuanqi or are they replenished at the same time?

 

Thanks in advance!

best

Michael

 

Good question. These terms (repleneshing yuanqi / yuanjing) are oftenly used without distinguishing between them. The detailed instructions are for students of certain level.

 

You are suggesting, saying, that if one has not "passed" tests of your particular system one does not know Dao? Or, they do not know the teachings of the system in a practical sense and therefore can not or should not comment on it?

 

I can totally get on board with a person believing in a system that has benefited and enriched their life, but what is a huge red flag for me is when it is said that there is only one way to get to know the Dao.

 

I think having a teacher is important for sharing openings and experiences with and receiving feedback. The Dao is the real teacher, in every case, without exception as far as I am concerned. 

 

Having an open enough heart and being still have been the only obstacles I have seen in myself and others that hold us back, not time.

 

Lets be more precise here. I am talking about Dao of WuLiupai and Yuxianpai Schools. Which corresponds to teaching of many ancient Masters of Daozang. We call it Traditional Daoism. For me it seems that to practice Traditional Daoism you need to be a part of Tradition and cultivate according to it.

 

If you are practicing on your own and get benefits from it - well, I would say it is excellent! Sincerely. Being an instructor, it's my duty to add two points about it:

1) My Teachers have warned me about possible dangers of cultivating without a teacher which may come with time (i.e. high risk). And as an insturctor I have to mention it.

2) Different methods and ways, different understanding of texts - all of it obviously can lead to different results, isn't it?

 

I appreciate every person practicing and spreading Daoism greatly (except the cases when person intentionally discredit it with fakes, spam etc.), no matter of methods.

 

And by the way. Shouldn't Daoist results make people more flexible, more open to new?

For example, if one day I meet a person who is practicing himself, without a teacher and will be able to demonstrate me real results, either in unusual understanding (answering questions - about bagua and there are much more...) or in practice (there are certain signs on the body, energetic field and appearance) - I would willingly teach from him. Or if he is of the same level as me - it would be great to exchange the experience.

And yes - one of the first questions I would ask is: "How were you able... by yourself? Please tell me!"

 

However I would never betray my School, no matter how powerful people or methods I met.

 

Yes, there is only one way to get Dao - thru mind and body and energy, no other way. That's why concept of true teacher or true schools is fake. I said it in other topic - Wu Liu Pai creates false feeling in you of superiority.

 

How did teachers of their teachers know the Dao? thru 3 things - mind, body and energy. There is no other way, one way but Wu Liu Paist and other people want to portray that one way is that way of their brand. You can only know Dao thru those 3 things and reverse process to One (Dao). You do not even need to meditate or do any practice really to get the Dao.

 

Well... Daozang Patriarchs said differently: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/

But if you are talking about some kind of your Dao (comparing to the Dao of Traditional WuLiupai and Yuxianpai Schools) - it is ok.

 

I am in no way bashing their system of practice, I have zero experience with it.  

 

I do know the Dao well enough to know that WLP and the practitioners are part of the "10,000 things", therefore no different in the "eyes of Dao" than any other of the 9,999 things.

 

When we step out of the shadow of Dao it creates separation, this is when the finger pointing that one is right and the other is wrong starts. Not very Dao-like if anyone is asking...

 

 

Please see this diagram I've prepared (click to enlarge):

 

 

 

*******

 

You only need but a minute or a few seconds to receive a transmission. You can make that transmission last a lifetime by sincerely and mentally aligning with that energetic information every day.

 

However (and this is key), you may not ever be able to accurately vet what transpired in those transmissions. The majority of cultivators will never know the energetic truth in their lifetime. And in that vein, it is wise to be prudent with deities, gurus, energy masters, and people who talk openly about their spiritual achievements. There is extreme risk in degrading the positive spiritual condition with which you were born.

 

 *******

 

It is almost true. However it is like explaining a schoolboy "in a minute" how to build, launch, manage International Space Station and make it last forever. In theory - well, of course a child can somehow memorize everything... But in practice the chance is decreased with every additional word of such a teacher. I would estimate a chance of failure something like 99.999999999....%

 

Time is relative and quantum phisics say interesting things about it.

If we look hagiografies of oldest Immortals and Masters majority of them recive transmission in one day or in short meeting.When they recive it,then it is other story and for cultivation they need "time" like A.A.K mention on the first page.But this is time for work complete process and not time for transmission as topic say.

When we look youngest generation of Immortals from the time Nei Dan was created in VIII century we again see that transsmision can happen for one single day and by chance.For example look the case of founder of Quanzhen( to which WLP is sub-branch) Master Wang Chongyang by chance meet in tavern(he was alcoholic addict) two Immortals Zhongli Quan and Lu Dong Bin(he also liked much red wine and nice ladys) and they give him there transsmision and left.He never meet them again,but he continued his cultivation alone.How about that?Or I need to post other examples?

 

Regarding 9 years facing the wall,I think that initiated people know that this dont mean realy 9 years unmoving facing the wall,but it referes to cultivation of Yang Shen(so number 9 for Pure Yang) and occasional seating meditation in isolation for certain time.

 

If we see what Patriarch of Longmen Pai Master Liu I Ming say(other masters say the same)......100 days,3 years,9 years and 10.000 things are just symbolic and used by masters when they whant to express time,but also they say it is diferent for every individual.

 

Ormus

 

The names are symbolic and it is obvious. But what do symbolize timespans?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited January 5, 2017 by A.A.Khokhlov

[Ormus]

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

this timespans symbolise many things and I need here few pages to discribe all,but I am to mention now only one, it is Fire Phases -HH.

 

Ormus

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

this timespans symbolise many things and I need here few pages to discribe all,but I am to mention now only one, it is Fire Phases -HH.

 

Ormus

 

Could you please tell us:

 

1) What exact symbolism is in 100 days laying the foundation and why?

2) What exact symbolism is in 3 years of breastfeeding and why?

3) What exact symbolism is in 9 years facing the wall and why?

 

Please comment only about time spans.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[Ormus]

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

I cant asnwer because this is the biggest secret of Nei Dan and topic under oath as you know.

 

I am kiding a little, I hope you understand.

 

You are Master not me,I am simple  seeker and know nothing.You as authority is to better explain this topic.

 

Ormus