How much time do you need to recieve a transmission?

[damdao]

I think that is a good source for correcting cultural bias about the concept of Taoism.

 

But, for many people, the important issue is not whether we are representing a tradition correctly. rather, the important issue is that we are accurately representing the process that Taoism (generally) is known for.

 

This is one point of view and we need to clarify from which point of view are we speaking.

But, can we deny the existence of a traditional chinese daoism?

I think that this is not possible at all.

Some want to speak from a perennialist point of view and some others from a traditional chinese one.

The OP is from the chinese one and that was well remarked by dawei, but it is not a trade mark of wuliu or yuxian, in fact you will find many others that agree with the schedule of the OP. 

 

On the other hand, the problem with the times is that they are not literal in a strict sense, but indicates some rhythm needed.

[Spotless]

Cultivating in traditional Daoism is a sequential process with stages need to passed one by one.

 

One of the first stages is repleneshing yuanqi. The time required to finish this stage depends (among other factors) on student's age. Stages names, like 

 

• "100 days laying the foundation"
• "3 years of breastfeeding"
• "9 years facing the wall"

all show us the required time. And what if deviations appear? What if student faces some difficulty or even danger in the cultivation process? The Teacher helps him/her. Same in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai Schools.

 

So the process of studying / teaching requires Time.

 

==========================

 

Some forum members using the fact that only few of fellow members know Chinese, post parts of text in hieroglyphs as an "evidence" to their fantasies. As other members are not able to check what is the meaning of these words it becomes possible to fool fellow members.

 

One of the examples has some relation to this topic. "Taoist Texts" claimed in one of previous threads that "Liu Huayang was studying only 3 days from Wu Chongxu", bringing this fragment 

 

“我以四十余年究竟之力而悟，后圣不终三日，彻见而彻知，并解悟二经之法旨，不大便宜耶？”

（《伍柳天仙法脉》，宗教文化出版社，第 13页， 2007版）

 

as an "evidence". Probably it has fooled some fellow members. But what do we actually see in the book mentioned? See the attach - no such words on 13th page.

 

Hope it will help fellow members in distinguishing between truth and lies.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Not only is the first sentence utter garbage but the entire first post is insiteful, petty and assumptive.

And I can assure you - Awaken does not live in a fantasy land. She and a very few others here have achieved much of the high forms you seek.

[damdao]

Not only is the first sentence utter garbage but the entire first post is insiteful, petty and assumptive.

(...)

Has that statement any foundation or is only a emotinal discharge?

[damdao]

Maybe 40 years of experience...

 

Real years or unreal years?

[Brian]

I would guess real years---I haven't lived that long, myself, though. I suspect that they're fairly similar to the ones I have experienced.

 

(Maybe not in content, but in a generic quality we associate with time).

They get shorter.

[Taoist Texts]

It almost feels like the phrase "Traditional Daoism" in this context should be in quotes or followed by a or ® symbol to indicate that it is referring specifically to "Dao of WuLiupai and Yuxianpai Schools."

And/or, preceded by a (€) or a ($) symbol

[dawei]

This is one point of view and we need to clarify from which point of view are we speaking.

But, can we deny the existence of a traditional chinese daoism?

I think that this is not possible at all.

Some want to speak from a perennialist point of view and some others from a traditional chinese one.

The OP is from the chinese one and that was well remarked by dawei, but it is not a trade mark of wuliu or yuxian, in fact you will find many others that agree with the schedule of the OP. 

 

On the other hand, the problem with the times is that they are not literal in a strict sense, but indicates some rhythm needed.

 

Several of your lasts posts should really be another topic, worthy of discussion. Let me know if you'd want it split out.

 

My issue with the phrase 'traditional chinese daoism' is when push comes to shove, most are referring to a timeframe of alchemy of 1600-1900 ?    And I'm not so sure what is 'traditional' about that...  it seems more a tradition as in a specific teaching/branch/lineage...

[damdao]

Several of your lasts posts should really be another topic, worthy of discussion. Let me know if you'd want it split out.

 

My issue with the phrase 'traditional chinese daoism' is when push comes to shove, most are referring to a timeframe of alchemy of 1600-1900 ?    And I'm not so sure what is 'traditional' about that...  it seems more a tradition as in a specific teaching/branch/lineage...

No problem at all.

Yes, there are many traditional daoisms.

But I think that the timeframe for alchemy is longer.

[Brian]

Several of your lasts posts should really be another topic, worthy of discussion. Let me know if you'd want it split out.

 

My issue with the phrase 'traditional chinese daoism' is when push comes to shove, most are referring to a timeframe of alchemy of 1600-1900 ?    And I'm not so sure what is 'traditional' about that...  it seems more a tradition as in a specific teaching/branch/lineage...

This is my thought, too. It isn't that AAK's depiction is "wrong" but that it is narrow -- it is a snapshot of one branch of an ancient tree presented (or interpreted as being presented) as "The Truth" despite the tree itself being presented as universal and eternal. To his credit, AAK appropriately defined that narrowness (which I copied in my light-hearted message above) AND that specific narrowness of focus is critical to understanding his perspective and objective. I think this is one of those cases where frequently restating the boundaries helps to avoid "scope creep."

[Arkady Shadursky]

Not only is the first sentence utter garbage but the entire first post is insiteful, petty and assumptive.

And I can assure you - Awaken does not live in a fantasy land. She and a very few others here have achieved much of the high forms you seek.

Please provide your arguments.

What A.A.Khokhlov is posting here based on deep investigation of ancient texts AND on teaching from heart to heart. Based on explanations of Chinese Masters and Tradition holders.

 

As far as I know, A.A.Khokhlov is the person who doesn't make blank statements. So, if you have questions, I think A.A.Khokhlov could answer them if asked correctly.

 

Statements like "your post is crap" will be obviously ignored.

Thank you.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

[Taoist Texts]

 

 to fool fellow members.

 

One of the examples has some relation to this topic. "Taoist Texts" claimed in one of previous threads that "Liu Huayang was studying only 3 days from Wu Chongxu", bringing this fragment 

 

“我以四十余年究竟之力而悟，后圣不终三日，彻见而彻知，并解悟二经之法旨，不大便宜耶？”

（《伍柳天仙法脉》，宗教文化出版社，第 13页， 2007版）

 

as an "evidence". Probably it has fooled some fellow members. 

 

For the record.  I pasted the quote above  one and only time in my convo with Awaken, without any claim, let alone the false one above. Here is the proof-link:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42694-liu-huayang/page-16#entry725635

 

The insinuations above, as well put by our betters are false, inciteful, petty and assumptive.

 

 

However, the hilarity of the situation is not that someone can get transmission face to face in 3 days.

No, far from it.

The hilarity is Wu Chongxu himself promising that anyone who reads his book will get full transmission and sainthood from his book only. In less than 3 days.

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43003-riddle-me-this/?p=729822

Edited January 7, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[SeekerOfHealing]

Yeah I read in Daoism Encyclopedia there is couple information of book transmission etc. that person just approaching the book, reading or whatever can become immortal.

 

Rather to argue about it we need to look up for those books, proofs and results.

[Arkady Shadursky]

The fact that you have provided false quote back in time making me not to believe your further quotes and translations.

 

There are a lot of lies in the internet and there is no need to quote them here as an evidence.

 

 

The hilarity is Wu Chongxu himself promising that anyone who reads his book will get full transmission and sainthood from his book only. In less than 3 days.

 

This is only your understanding of these words.

And again please read the book of Wu Chongxu more carefully or probably don't skip important parts about necessarity of the Teacher this time.

---

Arkady

Edited January 7, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Bindi]

Awaken, you are talking about really high level practices.

However, you keep ignoring the question about Bagua and alchemy relationship. Actually the answer for this question is obvious for every true alchemist.

 

In alchemy there is no way to skip any stage, and alchemist should pass them all gradually.

 

So if you can't answer such a simple question I afraid you probably didn't complete even a first initial stage.

 

UPD: if you don't know the answer, then it's OK. We all still have a lot to learn and there is no shame to ask if you don't know.

---

Arkady

 

This seems patently true for traditional neidan or alchemy, perhaps what is meant by these words just needs to be defined clearly. 

[awaken]

Arkady

 

If you are very good in alchemy , you can scan me.

 

Then you will know where I am in the process of alchemy.

 

But I am not good enough to scan you.

 

I only can receive you.

 

Your chi is cold and something tight in your heart.

 

Your chi make me feel uncomfortable.

 

So...sorry..

 

I will try to ignore your posts.

 

I don't want to receive too much bad chi.

 

I suggest you don't need to ask me any questions.

 

It will waste your time.

Edited January 7, 2017 by awaken

[[email protected]]

I don't have dreams since I opened the emptiness many years ago.

9 years facing the wall: starting opening the emptiness

Dear awaiken,

As you wrote that you have opened the emptiness, does this mean that you have been sitting 9 years facing the wall?

Rgrds, Ilya

[Ormus]

There are gradual advancement in Nei Dan and it is You Wei,but there is direct realisation of both Xing and Ming and this is Wu Wei.

 

Also there is transsmision by the book,and few Nei Dan lineages are founded that way.Some even say that Nanzong Pai of Immortal Master Zhang Boduan is one such school.And there are also mentionts that WLP in early days of foundation started like this,so agan nothing wrong with this.If we look Lingbao tradition or Tai Qing tardition they all started as transsmision by the books which founder find in cave or some secluded place.

 

Ormus

[Bindi]

There are gradual advancement in Nei Dan and it is You Wei,but there is direct realisation of both Xing and Ming and this is Wu Wei.

 

Also there is transsmision by the book,and few Nei Dan lineages are founded that way.Some even say that Nanzong Pai of Immortal Master Zhang Boduan is one such school.And there are also mentionts that WLP in early days of foundation started like this,so agan nothing wrong with this.If we look Lingbao tradition or Tai Qing tardition they all started as transsmision by the books which founder find in cave or some secluded place.

 

Ormus

 

I haven't heard of direct realisation in neidan or alchemy before, if I wanted to look into this idea can you tell me what to look for specifically, or give me a link, doing a word search on 'direct realisation of both Xing and Ming' didn't lead me anywhere much. Thanks.

[SeekerOfHealing]

@Bindi

 

There is whole chapter in Encyclopedia of Daoism related to this but you need to look up for it as I do not remember which volume (there are two) and which page generally, but there is a lot information about this.

[Bindi]

Thanks SoH, but I still can't find any reference to direct realisation in any neidan text or description of neidan, every reference I come across describes gradual cultivation with specific stages, can you give me more information about where to find this concept in neidan?

[SeekerOfHealing]

I have no interests much to search thru encyclopedia now for it but I'm sure there was a lot or at least pretty much of directly realizing the Tao in various situation like finding a proper book etc.

 

 

[Ormus]

Look in the books of Longmen Pai Patriarch Master Liu I Ming,or his commentarys to Zhang Boduan and others.Then works of Founder of Zhong Pai,Master Li Daochun.

 

Ormus

Edited January 7, 2017 by Ormus

[Pavel Karavaev]

The very first sentence is patently untrue:

 

"Cultivating in traditional Daoism is a sequential process with stages need to passed one by one"

 

This is a statement of the mind - the conceptual mind - the one that loves engineering ones way to Enlightenment. It is as humorous as it is sad. Nothing could be further from the truth and this will stunt your growth, hold you back and pour you into unnecessary minutiae like nothing else.

 

It is like stating that in order to live the very best life you have to understand and control each movement of a swallow and each actual beat of the heart.

 

This is religion - the religion of the control freak in each of us - the one that loves the sleep because that is where he/she holds the reins over us.

---

 

Traditional Daoism is not the religion, quite opposite it is always about the practice.

 

Practice of Nei Dan it is the way of changes of human - the way from the regular man to the perfect one. There is nothing unusual in the fact that these changes are separate for the different stages. In each stage for achieve a particular result you need to practice certain techniques due the time period, and then begin to practice another methods to get the further changes.

 

Everyone can have his (or her) subjective point of view, but the personal opinion can not be the basis for denying the knowledge of Tradition.

[Bindi]

Look in the books of Longmen Pai Patriarch Master Liu I Ming,or his commentarys to Zhang Boduan and others.Then works of Founder of Zhong Pai,Master Li Daochun.

 

Ormus

 

 

Is the starting point of the association between Neidan and immediate realisation based on Liu Yiming’s interpretation of the passage in the Daode jing, sec. 38, ”superior virtue (shangde) takes no action, and does not employ examining or seeking; inferior virtue (xiade) takes action, and its operation is unceasing.”

[awaken]

未證言證

 

It means you are not there, but you say it just like you are there.

 

It is not good in Daoist tradition.

 

We should not talk about the dao like you are already there.

 

It will make you like you are a salesman.

 

You are talking something that you don't understand.

 

But the way you talk like you already know.

 

We should not talk about dao only by knowledge from school.

 

We should talk from our heart and our practice.

 

Your school is the way you should follow.

 

Your school is not the advertisement you need to keep on introducing.

Edited January 8, 2017 by awaken