How much time do you need to recieve a transmission?

[Taoist Texts]

Dear awaiken,

As you wrote that you have opened the emptiness, does this mean that you have been sitting 9 years facing the wall?

Rgrds, Ilya

 

问曰：九年面壁之功，必九年静坐乎？

Question: is this work of 9 years facing the wall, a literal quiet sitting for 9 years?

答曰：非也。所谓九年者，即九还之意。面壁者，不是定坐，特用志不分，乃凝于神，而期于无一毫滓质之物。如壁立万刃于前，一无所见，万法归空之意。乃静养婴儿，脱化阳神之一着，非旁门静坐止念，面壁存神，以九年为九转也。

Answer: it is not.

What is called ‘9 years’ is in fact, nine stages of the refinement. Facing the wall is not sitting in Samadhi, but the application of an undivided will to congeal the spirit, so not a hair of polluting substance is left. It is similar to a sheer wall blocking the myriad spears so none is visible, the idea is for all dharmas to return to emptiness. This is a quiet nourishment of the infant in preparation for the transformation of the yang spirit, and not a side-gate quiet sitting and stopping thoughts. This facing the wall protects the spirit whereas the nine years mean the nine rectifications of the spirit.

/LYM/

Edited January 8, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

The fact that you have provided false quote back

It is not a fact. It is a defamation made up by you and yours.

 

"Taoist Texts" claimed in one of previous threads that "Liu Huayang was studying only 3 days from Wu Chongxu"

 

Now this one is a false quote in fact. It is also another defamation made up by you and yours.

[[email protected]]

Question: is this work of 9 years facing the wall, a literal quiet sitting for 9 years?

Answer: it is not.

What is called ‘9 years’ is in fact, nine stages of the refinement. Facing the wall is not sitting in Samadhi, but the application of an undivided will to congeal the spirit, so not a hair of polluting substance is left. It is similar to a sheer wall blocking the myriad spears so none is visible, the idea is for all dharmas to return to emptiness. This is a quiet nourishment of the infant in preparation for the transformation of the yang spirit, and not a side-gate quiet sitting and stopping thoughts. This facing the wall protects the spirit whereas the nine years mean the nine rectifications of the spirit.

/LYM/

 

Thank you TT! Is it also the opinion of awaiken you somehow managed to scan or guess? ))

If its only a quote then would be nice if she answers by herself.

Rgrds, Ilya

[awaken]

I have sit for 27 years.

 

9 years is not enough to open the emptiness.

 

Maybe you can, but not me.

 

9 years is very short in dao cultivation.

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

you are welcome.

 

I find your reply sirious,but whant to ask is this your official and final statement regarding times and symbolism how WLP define them?

 

Ormus

 

Well, for some specific students 100 days laying the foundation may symbolise 1000 days laying the foundation and even that might be not enough

 

Since time is derived from change, it is an abstraction. I am technically okay with saying that it is "unreal". It is a general idea applied to multiple levels of changes that have been experienced. If we experience ~365 sunrises and sunsets, and notice that this happening has certain periodic markers so that it is a noteworthy number, we can call this quantity a year and use it to describe things.

 

In that sense, time has no reality in itself; it is the interplay of yin and yang with one particular phenomena as a reference point for our description (in the above case, sunrise and sunsets).

 

It shouldn't take too much effort to extend this idea to alchemical processes where the alteration of yin and yang (in alchemy) is established terminology..

 

It makes sense. Ancient Yijing is about the Changes, but is it possible for relative people to understand it?

 

***No more bad dreams or nightmares as the Yin aspects have been refined completely, but still nice dreams : )

You can sense it as practice progresses. The dreams become more and more pleasant and more and more lucid.

 

In traditional daoism (= daoist alchemy) there are special practices to stop dreams. 

Dreams actually are fantasies, illusion, daoist patriarchs have written about it.

 

They might be more pleasant or less pleasant but all of it is for ordinary person. Alchemy master doesn't have dreams.

 

100 days Foundation: have chi

If One who know how to deal with Shen and chi

We can call him have the foundation

 

3 years lactation: stillness, chi go inside the 玄關

 

If one who know how to deal with 玄關竅

We can call him now how to lactation

 

9 years facing the wall: starting opening the emptiness

 

When one start the process of opening the emptiness

He won't have dream.

His middle Mai is open.

He start the evolution process of golden Dan

 

We can say his is in the process of 9 years facing the wall

 

 

 

 

There is still one more

 

10 months conceive

 

The first stage of 玄關

 

The first stage of light

 

When one can see the first stage of light

 

Look like tai jii

 

We can say he is in 10 months conceive

 

What daoist text have you taken this sequence from?

 

I guess I've had "teaching" dreams too....but I thought they were a byproduct of pontificating on the interwebz...

 

It is correct. Here is a quote from dictionary everyone is probably aware of:

 

"Dream

 

1. mental activity, usually in the form of an imagined series of events, occurring during certain phases of sleep

2. a sequence of imaginative thoughts indulged in while awake; daydream; fantasy

...

5. a vain hope

6. a person or thing that is as pleasant, or seemingly unreal, as a dream"

 

In the 100 days foundation, there are an infinite number of ways.

 

In the last stage , 9 years facing the wall, there is only one way.

 

The chi can be used or cultivated in many ways.

 

The using of chi will attract people very easily.

 

There are many branch roads in this way.

 

People are attracted by the magic power of chi.

 

What daoist text have you taken these statements from? Or is it your own thoughts?

 

There are some schools that say they can create the dantian for a student through a transmission. Would this complete the "100 day" part of the training?

 

I have heard that the foundation must be set by only the disciple's energy in order for the final stages of the process to work, though that could just be a rumor. Do you know if there is any truth to that rumor?

 

Also, you speak about the allure of magical applications of chi. Some schools advocate exploring applications (which could be considered magical) as a way of growing into the experience of "oneness" with the universe or understanding the energy body. Other schools say that exercising such abilities is a side path, some even say that it wastes cultivated energy and detracts from the late stages of alchemy. Do you have a perspective on the matter?

 

And, I guess (to be clear), laying the foundation is meant to restore energy lost from aging so that the body has the resources to do the alchemy training. So you seem to be saying that any methods that can do this are acceptable. Does this mean that the 9 years facing the wall need to be working with emptiness and no other practices (aside from maintaining health of energy, body, and mind)?

 

(Sorry, I have lots of questions---I won't ask any more)

 

Practically, it is not possible. Obviously it contradicts self-cultivation.

 

The very first sentence is patently untrue:

 

"Cultivating in traditional Daoism is a sequential process with stages need to passed one by one"

 

This is a statement of the mind - the conceptual mind - the one that loves engineering ones way to Enlightenment. It is as humorous as it is sad. Nothing could be further from the truth and this will stunt your growth, hold you back and pour you into unnecessary minutiae like nothing else.

 

It is like stating that in order to live the very best life you have to understand and control each movement of a swallow and each actual beat of the heart.

 

This is religion - the religion of the control freak in each of us - the one that loves the sleep because that is where he/she holds the reins over us.

---

 

This is candy in the candy store - "Sir, I would like to buy the big golden map behind you that comes with a book that has step by step instructions for becoming a rabbit because I want to enter a race with a turtle and have decided that as a rabbit it would be impossible to lose the race. This will provide me with the starting point and the finish line and is so perfect neat and tidy! How much is it? I would surely like to buy it."

 

If you wish to proceed far in cultivation all you need is a good foundation and live it. You have all the answers and they will all reveal themselves. The frequencies of karma that you are held in by yourself are always working you toward this and if you strive through cultivation - it is to move beyond the bonds you hold yourself with.

 

As the bonds are released cultivation brings with it an attraction to the very pages you are reading here. It brings an attraction to knowing yourself once again. Now that you are here - it is not something that you sign up for like at a gym. You arrive here and wish to grasp cultivation wherein you apply yourself to it - this is done precisely in releasing the control and grasping you have done in the forgetting of yourself.

 

Don't resist one type of religion only to join another - move toward your Self - intentional suffering is actually giving up your positions, your story, your pride and your willfulness - this is true cultivation.

 

All you are talking about - "realeasing bonds of karma" and so on is a kind of mindwork and has no relation to Daoism.

All living creatures have a simple karma - to die. If you can not escape from this - all these nice words about "releasing bonds of karma" remain just words...

 

I think sudden enlightenment is a xing experience. But even admiting sudden enlightenmet after that comes gradual cultivation, as zen says.

Besides there is a wide variety, levels and focuses of enlightenments, not all mutually compatible.

Neidan (in its broader sense) try to cultivate at the same time xing and ming, and in the Wuliu and Yuxian Pais the first step is about ming practice and it shoul follow the heaven pattern, the cycles, growing and waning of yin and yang, etc. 

 

What you have noticed above clearly corresponds with the meaning of the Chinese term oftenly translated as "sudden enlightenement". See http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43032-sudden-enlightenment-in-daoism/

 

I think that is a good source for correcting cultural bias about the concept of Taoism.

 

But, for many people, the important issue is not whether we are representing a tradition correctly. rather, the important issue is that we are accurately representing the process that Taoism (generally) is known for.

 

Known by whom? Should this knowledge be somehow backed by evidences?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Not only is the first sentence utter garbage but the entire first post is insiteful, petty and assumptive.

And I can assure you - Awaken does not live in a fantasy land. She and a very few others here have achieved much of the high forms you seek.

 

Probably you can provide any foundation beyond your personal dislike to sequential cultivation process in Daoism?

 

Maybe 40 years of experience...

 

Maybe... Maybe even in daoism... Who knows?

 

This is my thought, too. It isn't that AAK's depiction is "wrong" but that it is narrow -- it is a snapshot of one branch of an ancient tree presented (or interpreted as being presented) as "The Truth" despite the tree itself being presented as universal and eternal. To his credit, AAK appropriately defined that narrowness (which I copied in my light-hearted message above) AND that specific narrowness of focus is critical to understanding his perspective and objective. I think this is one of those cases where frequently restating the boundaries helps to avoid "scope creep."

 

What are my words backed by?

1) Traditional teaching of Yuxianpai alchemy School.

2) Traditional teaching of WuLiupai alchemy School.

3) Studying numerous ancient daoist texts. Which all say the same.

 

So:

Yes, it is how we teach in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai. 

Not at all, it is not an approach of Yuxianpai and WuLiupai only. It is same to words of many Patriarchs of ancient Daoism and approach of other traditional Chinese schools we are in contact with.

 

Clarification:

No, I don't say there might be no other approaches. But I say the results of different approaches may also be different.

 

For the record.  I pasted the quote above  one and only time in my convo with Awaken, without any claim, let alone the false one above. Here is the proof-link:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42694-liu-huayang/page-16#entry725635

 

The insinuations above, as well put by our betters are false, inciteful, petty and assumptive.

 

 

However, the hilarity of the situation is not that someone can get transmission face to face in 3 days.

No, far from it.

The hilarity is Wu Chongxu himself promising that anyone who reads his book will get full transmission and sainthood from his book only. In less than 3 days.

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43003-riddle-me-this/?p=729822

 

You are twisting the words again. So much disrespect to fellow members.

Let me remind you the sequence:

 

1) Awaken (falsely) had said Liu Huayang was only 3 days with his Teacher.

2) People have asked for any proof for it.

3) You mentioned there was a proof in some link awaken has posted before.

4) People got no response from awaken (which means her words had no foundation).

5) You posted the mentioned message. Obviously trying to make a (false) foundation for her words.

 

It is clear for everyone. So you sat in puddle again trying to fool fellow members. 

 

And here is about your failed attempts to distort simple Patriarchs' words not being able to understand them: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43034-correcting-some-misinterpretations/

 

Yeah I read in Daoism Encyclopedia there is couple information of book transmission etc. that person just approaching the book, reading or whatever can become immortal. Rather to argue about it we need to look up for those books, proofs and results.

 

I believe it should be backed by something more specific. Especially being that not traditional to the entire Chinese Daoism.

 

This seems patently true for traditional neidan or alchemy, perhaps what is meant by these words just needs to be defined clearly. 

 

Yes it is correct. We use Daoist Alchemy and Traditional Daoism as synonyms.

 

There are gradual advancement in Nei Dan and it is You Wei,but there is direct realisation of both Xing and Ming and this is Wu Wei.

 

Also there is transsmision by the book,and few Nei Dan lineages are founded that way.Some even say that Nanzong Pai of Immortal Master Zhang Boduan is one such school.And there are also mentionts that WLP in early days of foundation started like this,so agan nothing wrong with this.If we look Lingbao tradition or Tai Qing tardition they all started as transsmision by the books which founder find in cave or some secluded place.

 

Ormus

 

You have probably misunderstood the meaning of Wu Wei and You Wei. I will clarify it additionally soon.

 

I haven't heard of direct realisation in neidan or alchemy before, if I wanted to look into this idea can you tell me what to look for specifically, or give me a link, doing a word search on 'direct realisation of both Xing and Ming' didn't lead me anywhere much. Thanks.

 

Agree. Here is a thread about it: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43032-sudden-enlightenment-in-daoism/

 

Look in the books of Longmen Pai Patriarch Master Liu I Ming,or his commentarys to Zhang Boduan and others.Then works of Founder of Zhong Pai,Master Li Daochun.

 

Ormus

 

I believe it should be backed by something more specific. Especially being that not traditional to the entire Chinese Daoism.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited January 9, 2017 by A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

问曰：九年面壁之功，必九年静坐乎？

Question: is this work of 9 years facing the wall, a literal quiet sitting for 9 years?

答曰：非也。所谓九年者，即九还之意。面壁者，不是定坐，特用志不分，乃凝于神，而期于无一毫滓质之物。如壁立万刃于前，一无所见，万法归空之意。乃静养婴儿，脱化阳神之一着，非旁门静坐止念，面壁存神，以九年为九转也。

Answer: it is not.

What is called ‘9 years’ is in fact, nine stages of the refinement. Facing the wall is not sitting in Samadhi, but the application of an undivided will to congeal the spirit, so not a hair of polluting substance is left. It is similar to a sheer wall blocking the myriad spears so none is visible, the idea is for all dharmas to return to emptiness. This is a quiet nourishment of the infant in preparation for the transformation of the yang spirit, and not a side-gate quiet sitting and stopping thoughts. This facing the wall protects the spirit whereas the nine years mean the nine rectifications of the spirit.

/LYM/

 

Liu Yiming was practicing the Northern Method of Longmenpai so it might have been true for his methodology. By the way is there any information of him passing that level?

 

While in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai 9 years facing the wall is a stage when person is practicing for a long long time completely still in the cave for certain reasons facing the direction opposite to entrance of the cave.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[[email protected]]

I have sit for 27 years.

 

9 years is not enough to open the emptiness.

 

Maybe you can, but not me.

 

9 years is very short in dao cultivation.

Then what kind of "sitting" are you speaking about?

I think that it is not the same sitting that was mentioned as "9 years facing the wall".

[Taoist Texts]

 

  WuLiupai 9 years facing the wall is a stage when person is practicing for a long long time completely still in the cave for certain reasons facing the direction opposite to entrance of the cave.

 

 

执却病坐功而欲学之以求成仙者，不传

 

Brother Wu says: clinging to low-level sitting work and seeking to complete sainthood - no transmission.

[awaken]

Then what kind of "sitting" are you speaking about?

I think that it is not the same sitting that was mentioned as "9 years facing the wall".

Thinking can't make you really understand forever.

 

How long have you cultivated?

[LaoZiDao]

执却病坐功而欲学之以求成仙者，不传

 

Brother Wu says: clinging to low-level sitting work and seeking to complete sainthood - no transmission.

I'm no professional translator, but what I got is different from you. I did not see where it mentioned about 9 years facing the wall, what is the rest of the context of this text? Can you share it please.

 

What I got:

 

"To carry out task to prevent or cure disease with sitting work (Zuogong), as well as the desire to study to become Xian, the knowledge is not passed on / transmitted."

 

To me it is telling those who rely on methods to prevent and cure diseases (Qigong), could not be used for Alchemy.

[Taoist Texts]

  I did not see where it mentioned about 9 years facing the wall, what is the rest of the context of this text? Can you share it please.

 

 

Thats exactly the point, the 9 years is not there because the 9 years is not literal sitting).

 

http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=en&chapter=542627&remap=gb

para 411

[laughingblade]

*******

 

You only need but a minute or a few seconds to receive a transmission. You can make that transmission last a lifetime by sincerely and mentally aligning with that energetic information every day.

 

However (and this is key), you may not ever be able to accurately vet what transpired in those transmissions. The majority of cultivators will never know the energetic truth in their lifetime. And in that vein, it is wise to be prudent with deities, gurus, energy masters, and people who talk openly about their spiritual achievements. There is extreme risk in degrading the positive spiritual condition with which you were born.

 

 *******

BOOM! Home run. (but what do I know, I'm just the window cleaner?)

 

x

[johndoe2012]

*******

There is extreme risk in degrading the positive spiritual condition with which you were born.

 

*******

If you are awareness before identifying with the body then what is the risk?

[[email protected]]

Thinking can't make you really understand forever.

 

How long have you cultivated?

awaken, may be you could answer my question first about what kind of sitting for 27 years you have mentioned?

Otherwise it would be a non-productive discussion.

Rgrds, Ilya

[dawei]

awaken, may be you could answer my question first about what kind of sitting for 27 years you have mentioned?

Otherwise it would be a non-productive discussion.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

why not just look here:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42977-my-diaries-of-cultivation/

[Arkady Shadursky]

Actually orshavskiy asked very interesting question.

I'm also wondering has awaken finished "9 years facing the wall" stage or not?

 

I've seen many people who have been practicing for many years, following wrong direction...

And all what they achieved was a bunch of deviations in the health (and obviously in the energetic structure).

 

A also have seen with my own eyes how did those people fixed their problems in about couple of month by carefully practicing under Teachers control.

That is why I always say that without a Teacher its really hard to find a balance.

P.S. dawei, thanks for the link. 

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

Edited January 17, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Ormus]

Obviously Wu Liu Pai and Yu Xian Pai understanding about 9 years of sitting and other symbology is totaly diferent from Longmen Pai and Zhong Pai.Even if I didnt recive reply that it is official position of this 2 schools I respect their position and interpretation.On us is to choose which way to follow.

 

Some explanations of the book Secret of the Golden Flower speak that sitting is not ordinary sitting but sitting of the mind in every moment.....in dayly life and work...this is real sitting meditation when you guard the One and have no attachments but you are in stillness.

 

Ormus

[LaoZiDao]

Obviously Wu Liu Pai and Yu Xian Pai understanding about 9 years of sitting and other symbology is totaly diferent from Longmen Pai and Zhong Pai.

 

You knew Longmenpai is ancestor of Wuliupai, right?

[Ormus]

Yes official story say that Master Wu was Longmen Pai.But as you see today WLP members dont like to compare themselfs with Longmen and say that their practice is diferent and more advanced.I agree that it is diferent.And from reading Master Liu I Ming it is clear that he have totaly diferent understanding of the practice and he was Patriarch Master of Longmen Pai.

 

Ormus