Off Topic Discussions

[Geof Nanto]

It seems to me that the root if this is having a sub forum called *Off-Topic* . Since it is not dedicated to discussions related to any of the topics we can find in General, Daoist etc. people will identify it as total freedom space.

 

So even if you put in bold, in capital letters,in an audio file that **forum rules apply** some people won't hear that because they will immediately feel that it is censorship, whatever grounds you give to the rules.

 

And when it comes to politics, it just becomes totally wild and out of control We can see so called spiritual seekers turning into completely polarized internet beasts and it becomes impossible and pointless to discuss with them.

 

Just like people in TDB who want to show that their school can pee way farther than any other.

 

One can notice that those kind of battles are always conducted in the name of *truth* ( hey, I am of this X school and in the name of Truth I can let people say this or that etc.), *freedom* (In the name of truth and freedom of speech, I must say this and that and the Admin can't muzzle me etc. otherwise the admin is just another a*****ole), and the same for *justice* etc.

 

You know it is perhaps and probably just me but one reason I wanted to learn more about Lao-Tzu and Zhuang Zi was that they found no real meaning in all this worldy and petty matters. The world is full of ugliness, not because it is its intrinsic quality but because people bring their ugly minds and actions in it. As soon as one diminishes all worldly desires, the environment around becomes a more peaceful place. I have really, really, really hard time to see how being involved in politics (and heart/mind is the root of any involvement as far as I can see) can bring any peace internally and externally. What politics did Daoists in the mountains and in caves, Christians in the deserts, Buddhists in their forest or caves?

 

Anyway, the only solution to this recurrent situation at TDB may be to close the off topic section. At least, it will limit the problems to Mopai etc. which is enough to keep the mods busy.

 

To my mind, Bubbles raises a number of issues worthy of further discussion.

 

For me, Off Topic discussions are an important part of this forum. It’s there I’ve gained a broader view of other members and this in turn has helped me better understand myself. Also these topics regularly host some of the most vigorously discussions. Hence it’s obvious Dao Members have a great need to express, and hopefully work through, these many and varied issues. And, of course, it also allows the discussion of interesting subjects outside of our main focus. 

 

However, I think it’s important for the health of this site that the focus stays firmly on our central topics. That what gives us some unity amongst our great diversity. That’s the purpose of this site; that’s what makes it meaningful. The web is big place with almost unlimited space for freedom of expression. Dao Bums can never be, and doesn’t need to be, everything for everyone. 

 

A possible way to better achieve these two goals would be to make Off Topic a members only forum. That way these discussions won’t be visible, and hence won’t attract the attention of the thousands of visitors to this site. Visitors here a huge invisible audience; regularly there’s more than ten visitors on board for every member. Hence, if someone wants to join Dao Bums it will be because they’re drawn to the main forums rather than these Off Topic subjects. Also, it will limit those with strong personal political (and other) agendas from exploiting the wide audience that this site attracts to publicize their own agendas. 

 

Further comments most welcome.

 

[dawei]

I liked Bubble's posts and glad to see you raise it more as a discussion...   the off-topic forum area, and reminder that rules apply goes back some time... just as the forum Chaos has a reminder that rules apply... there is no "No Rules Apply" area to the forum... as of yet

 

I think I would generally disagree with getting rid of off-topic as there is a lot to share and talk about... and to blow off steam... instead of doing that in the other areas.  

 

If you look at off-topic, there are almost NO new members who join just to post there... most of the posters are established members who have learned how to disagree (aka fight) and not take it too personal...  So I am not sure I would agree with the idea that the public viewing attracts new members.

 

I will say that at one time, I personally did turn it off from public viewing... and there was backlash from the membership that they like to view the forum without logging in, and that including Off-topic.   I listened, and I opened it back up.   I like that members want to come back to read, even if not logged in.   This site really serves the members, and by that I tend to likely mean those who have a serious recommendation to make the place better overall...  and this topic can be a discussion in that way.

 

I should close with some history and recent recommendations and folks can comment:

1. Chaos was and maybe is still affectionately known as the PIT...  some habits never die..and that is ok...  and at one time, one could start topics in the PIT... when that was done by a certain member (now banned but wish he would ask to come back),  it was decided that these topics should not be started behind the public curtain anyways as they are too combative... so... starting topics in the PIT was stopped.

2. Folks could start a topic in, let's say off-topic... push the envelope... and get it moved to the PIT...  the Italians have a saying: When there is a law, there is a way around the law... we found that out at TDB

3. More recently, at least two folks suggested a sub-forum of off-topic that was more like, off-limits... to suggest, no limit to the topic and that should be non-public...    At the time, my counter comment was: that is the Pit/Chaos...   although I recognize we don't allow new threads there.  Also, I argued, to allow that might suggest we want such controversial topics here.

 

Given the above, I hope others share some thoughts.. thanks for the topic

[Stosh]

I like the idea of there being a pit to shovel difficult threads , which isnt open to public view.

To let folks air out finish their debate ,but not to leave it as a podium for the public eye. ,,

maybe limit the length of how long the thread can go before it predictably terminates on its own , so the mods dont have the burden of having to jump in once its in this pit. 

Ex: it goes to the pit and you've got twenty posts left, then it locks. 

[dawei]

I like the idea of there being a pit to shovel difficult threads , which isnt open to public view.

To let folks air out finish their debate ,but not to leave it as a podium for the public eye. ,,

maybe limit the length of how long the thread can go before it predictably terminates on its own , so the mods dont have the burden of having to jump in once its in this pit. 

Ex: it goes to the pit and you've got twenty posts left, then it locks. 

 

That is the basically the current way... but the goal (as discussed with the owner and past admin ideas) is to try and not lock posts... it stops their venting... but as you can see, there are posts locked... so it does at some point still require staff to decide if a Pitted topic has gone too far.        I think you see the Pit/Chaos dilemma

[Marblehead]

Long Live The Pit!!!

[dawei]

I'm not sure I'd agree to this, but it would be a legitimate question:  

 

Why not just let the PIT have topics started again ?   Wouldn't that get the questionable stuff out of off-topic faster ?

 

 

After all, it was originally that way...

 

I would only comment that, doing so may appear that TDB is encouraging and condoning certain questionable topics to be started. 

 

The counter may be But if its not in public view, why care ?

 

The counter may be:   It still has to stay within forum rules so we end up still having to monitor it.

 

The counter may be But if its not in public view, why care ?

 

 

Ok... enough talking to myself...  but willing to listen to what folks think.

[Bubbles]

 

I'm not sure I'd agree to this, but it would be a legitimate question:  

 

Why not just let the PIT have topics started again ?   Wouldn't that get the questionable stuff out of off-topic faster ?

 

 

After all, it was originally that way...

 

I would only comment that, doing so may appear that TDB is encouraging and condoning certain questionable topics to be started. 

 

The counter may be But if its not in public view, why care ?

 

The counter may be:   It still has to stay within forum rules so we end up still having to monitor it.

 

The counter may be But if its not in public view, why care ?

 

 

Ok... enough talking to myself...  but willing to listen to what folks think.

 

 

If I recall it well, it was during the bried period of time I was a mod that viator decided that no new thread could be started in the Pit area.

 

It seems that the question is two-fold:

(1) should be Pit stay under the forum rules?

(2) should members be allowed to start new threads in the Pit?

 

Possible answers are (A=Yes), (B=No)

 

A(1) + A(2) means that it will give more work to mods

A(1) + B(2) is the current situation. Is there any good reason to change that?

B(1) + A(2) means that there would be some aera here running on free wheel with no moderation at all.

B(1) + B(2) means is a reduced version of the previous one but, it could be that some would derail some threads from other areas in order to have the discussion moved into the Pit and have their own party there.

 

My take is that the current situation is fine because the two last options would feed trolls and malevolent members (yes, there are).

Edited January 5, 2017 by bubbles

[Stosh]

 

I'm not sure I'd agree to this, but it would be a legitimate question:  

 

Why not just let the PIT have topics started again ?   Wouldn't that get the questionable stuff out of off-topic faster ?

 

 

After all, it was originally that way...

 

I would only comment that, doing so may appear that TDB is encouraging and condoning certain questionable topics to be started. 

 

The counter may be But if its not in public view, why care ?

 

The counter may be:   It still has to stay within forum rules so we end up still having to monitor it.

 

The counter may be But if its not in public view, why care ?

 

 

Ok... enough talking to myself...  but willing to listen to what folks think.

 

To this , I'm in favor of non-moderated threads in the pit, and if they were started in the pit , then I'd just let em run as long as enthusiasm for the thread exists. 

Not to be confusing , Ill elaborate , free speech isn't allowed generally, there's always someone who thinks they know what should and should not be said by other people, and this censorship is intrusive. Balancing that , there's the issue of creating a spectacle of rough language which the public may stumble into.

If a person is sensitive about words , they can be respected simply by allowing them not to attend threads in the pit,, and if a person wants to give someone a 'piece of their mind'  they could opt to do that in an appropriate setting where they know that readers have chosen to allow it. It would just be a spot to 'let it all hang out'.

I think a policy like this allows moderators and posters to more comfortably deal with various issues, and some of the cool folks that used to be here would still be. 

I just see no reason why Daobums should force Every thing to be moderated. 

 

 

The PC stuff is out of hand .. 

I wandered off to a different forum , and though on my gentlest behavior , the moderator had the infantile gall , to correct me on my punctuation ,and rewrote my post as suited her , She told me that such bad grammar wouldn't be tolerated. I pointed out that her own punctuation was incorrect , (as defined by another source on English grammar.. .. in private) and she told me that her own bad punctuation wasn't the issue ,and didn't matter.  She felt she should and could,  push me around based on her own opinions . I just walked away from it and left her to dominate the folks there who would tolerate it. There is a level which is too much , and each forum should decide if they are going to be PC Nazis or if they are going to try to be a place where folks can participate freely , a reader can and will always vote with their feet , but the forum should consider whether it exists to serve political correctness or its members.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

My opinion hasn't changed.  More threads should be sent to The Pit instead of "Off Topic" and we should be allowed to start threads in The Pit.

 

However, I agree, the root tenants of the forum must be complied with.  (No threats or inspiring violence and no personal attacks.)

[Bubbles]

My opinion hasn't changed.  More threads should be sent to The Pit instead of "Off Topic" and we should be allowed to start threads in The Pit.

 

However, I agree, the root tenants of the forum must be complied with.  (No threats or inspiring violence and no personal attacks.)

 

Would you like to moderate the Pit or would you be among the Pit's moderated? :D

Edited January 5, 2017 by bubbles

[Marblehead]

Would you like to moderate the Pit or would you be among the Pit's moderated? :D

 

Thanks for the offer.  My Anarchist mentality would likely prevent me from doing a good job at that.  I have enough challenges being the Welcome Master.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Marblehead

[thelerner]

There are racists who crave attention and would use this board as there soap box.  This board was NOT meant to give them space.

 

These racists quickly jump from issues, that should and could be discussed, to why entire races, religions, colors, identity are bad and evil.   There are lots of neo nazi, Klan and White Power sites that cater to crazies on the far right, and websites that cater to delusional bigots on the far left. 

 

Everybody vents, everybody has issues and hot buttons, but when we see a pattern of an individual insulting and degrading entire ethnic groups, I think we should give them fair warning and send them packing.  Cause that is not what the Dao Bums is about.   I'll give people a pass or two, after that let them wallow in there hate, fear and prejudices somewhere else. 

[Golden Dragon Shining]

I offer to moderate the Primordial Chaos
 

Hades, God of the Underworld

Lucifer fallen in his rebellion

I feel the fox has some significance between worlds

In a world upside down


 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Sionnach

[Golden Dragon Shining]

LET ME RULE OVER THE CHAOS!

hahahaha

[Marblehead]

LET ME RULE OVER THE CHAOS!

 

hahahaha

 

Never.  You have too many fixed opinions.

[Stosh]

Ironically, hate fear and predjudice, are the reasons to judge pre-empt and exclude people for their ideas. In america the ideal is of free speech, and liberty, so long as its not interfering with the liberty of others. As soon as one decides how they want everyone else to act and speak, it is they who become the antagonists of free participation.

Taobums presumably wants participation , and the idea is that , in allowing hostility , the participation drops because folks become threatened or disaffected. That makes sense to me as well, BUT, when the establishment decides to aggressively promote subdued behavior, they themselves have taken on the role of threatening and disaffecting the very public it wants to have participate.

Taking on this role, taobums increases its own need to control everyone, its own burden is magnified. Thats why daoist opinionsuggests that leadership should choose to set liberal unrestrictive policy, include all under a tolerant standard and leave the public to flexibly respond to extraordinary issues.

I wasnt here in the early days,I hear it worked fine back then, but membership was smaller, and perhaps that makes a difference,

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Never.  You have too many fixed opinions.

Who here does not have fixed opinions?

 

The difference between us is I would let people express them.

 

How was I banned without people having fixed opinions?

 

If people are neither for or against anything.

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Sionnach

[Kar3n]

Stosh, have you ever been a mod here, or on any other forum?

[Golden Dragon Shining]

~

Edited January 6, 2017 by Sionnach

[Golden Dragon Shining]

I was here in the early days...



just being dramatic

[Marblehead]

I wasnt here in the early days,I hear it worked fine back then, but membership was smaller, and perhaps that makes a difference,

Yes, membership was smaller and of a different mentality.  That is why Sean decided to have Moderation.  Our membership is pretty self-moderating in the most part today.  Sure, there are exceptions but those are mostly because of narrow-mindedness or ego problems.

 

Considering I am an Anarchist, I think it is neat that I haven't had any "freedom of speech" problems lately.  But yes, there are still a couple of untouchables.  I just stay away from them.

[Marblehead]

Who here does not have fixed opinions?

 

The difference between us is I would let people express them.

 

How was I banned without people having fixed opinions?

 

If people are neither for or against anything.

 

Ah, yes, but a couple of yours inspire people to get emotional and then you get more emotional in return.  Our emotions all too often cause us problems on any forum.

[Marblehead]

I was here in the early days...

 

 

 

just being dramatic

I doubt you are old enough to have been here in the early days.

[Stosh]

Stosh, have you ever been a mod here, or on any other forum?

If I told ya I'd have ta kill ya

[Kar3n]

If I told ya I'd have ta kill ya

 

OK