Off Topic Discussions

[Stosh]

OK

I've got one for you , do you think the guys who tanked our economy were considered 'experts'?

[dawei]

This has been a really interesting discussion on the nature and use of certain forum areas of TDB as it grows and evolves.   In summary:

 

1. Off-topic was raised as a concern and whether it should go 'dark' (turn off public view) or be removed all together.

 

To me, it still feels like it serves a need and and in life, folks participate in mundane things in life that off-topic tends to cover.

 

2. Past ideas have been to have a sub-forum of off-topic that is more like, 'off-topic and hands-off moderation'.

 

My counter so far has been, that is the PIT... so seems redundant to me.

 

3. One suggestion was to move more stuff to Pit and maybe that helps keep off-topic 'cleaner'.

 

I tend to like this idea.   I think part of the hesitation is simply it is staff deciding what belongs in off topic or not.   That kind of increased oversight to an area might rub some members the wrong way.

 

4. Another suggestion has been to allow topics to be started in the PIT, as was in the beginning.

 

Although I might be open to that, as it was originally that way... there are several counters to this:  Foremost, there is a reason it was turned off... and turning it back on (to start topics) may be a futile exercise in seeing history repeat itself.   Also, folks might tend to start controversial topics as if we now encourage that.   The current setup seems to have an invisible fence of topics that members understand are ok or not.  To open the PIT would be to open Pandora's box of topics. 

 

5. The PIT was suggested as a place of non-moderation.

 

This comes with huge implications... and Lord of the Flies comes to mind... I was at another website for several years, as a mod, and we tried that... it took all of 2 days to shut it down.  SO much for non-moderation concepts    Not to say that would happen here, but I've seen it tried.

 

6. The PIT was suggested as having looser rules, like major rule violations only.

 

That's one idea...

 

7. The PIT was suggested as having a time limit on how long a thread could continue.

 

That's kind of a novel idea and if it could be done via software, then it would be interesting to discuss internally with Admin/tech...   but under the current software, it seems it would increase the mod's work to watch the threads and when they got to some limit, which is rather unprecedented for the PIT.

 

 

How we got to this point was raised with some historical comments... a small group that was largely un-moderated walked these plains at one time... but as the tribes grow and consolidated, Tribal Chiefs were installed... and as it grew to a city-state, a kind of militia was installed.   The open plains now appeared to have an invisible boundary; you knew how far to wander or else it was not a safe haven, etc.

 

So, it is rather hard to try and re-create an earlier time when the current environment is quite different. 

 

Having said all this, any comments are welcomed and maybe directed at the concerns mentioned above.  

 

Added:  Inserted a new #6... forgot that one...

[Kar3n]

I've got one for you , do you think the guys who tanked our economy were considered 'experts'?

 

They might be expert to some, or have pieces of paper that say so, but I think the proof is in the proverbial pudding.

[Stosh]

I quite agree,

Whether someone acted as a mod-expert somewhere else or not,

 doesn't mean that they do , or do not know ,

,whether the things they would choose to do anywhere else ,

are actually in the best interest of the current forum membership. 

[dawei]

I quite agree,

Whether someone acted as a mod-expert somewhere else or not,

 doesn't mean that they do , or do not know ,

,whether the things they would choose to do anywhere else ,

are actually in the best interest of the current forum membership. 

 

That's why I won't act unilaterally in this issue...  members and staff have their point of view... and I'll also pass it by Sean for his thoughts.  There are some implications for what such a change may mean in terms of the perception of what TDB represents, encourages, and wants to attract for discussion topics.

 

I know that in the very beginning, there was a vision of an area fairly wide-open with very few rules... but Sean was the one that changed it to a moderation model... and past Admins further shut down the PIT in some ways.

[Geof Nanto]

My original motivation for starting this thread was my concern for the amount of partisan political debate taking place. I have no problems with vigorous discussion as such. When it relates to spiritual traditions and practices I think it’s has a valid place here, and the moderation already in place works well enough. What I was wanting was some way to separate political discussions so that it’s obvious they are secondary.

 

On further thought my original suggestion of making Off Topic private wouldn’t work because with the current software the headings of these topics still show to everyone. If the new version of software allows topics to be completely hidden I still think it could be worthwhile to try for a trial period of say 3 months. But as I’ve said it’s really only political partisan debate that concerns me. Discussions about the nature of politics itself I see have a legitimate place on the main board. As do many other Off Topic discussions.

 

That said, the bottom line for me is that the harmony or otherwise of this forum will always be a function of our collective de – particularly that of those who are most active in posting; and especially the de of staff. The more rules we require, the more we are failing to harmonise with Dao. In that regards I think Dao Bums does very well for an internet forum. I don’t see any major problems here, quite the contrary. Any adjustments would only be minor fine tuning. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Yueya

[Marblehead]

 

Added:  Inserted a new #6... forgot that one...

But please, Please, Please don't change the "Off Topic" sub-forum.  Just consider that more things should go to "The Pit" instead of being sent to "Off Topic".

[Golden Dragon Shining]

you can't have absolutely no moderation, things like pornography, threats of violence to a person. I see no reason for excessive insults either, it would just be like any other somewhat intellectual debate, evidence, reasoning. A battle of ideas if you will.

Just can't keep appeasing the bolsheviks hiding as progressives

Moderation doesn't mean perpetuate one sided history. Or one political ideology. Unless that is the explicit purpose of that forum. If it is that just need to be made clear for new members. That this forum is a Progressive/Communist Taoist forum, which is funny as those same people oppressed Taoism, how tolerant hm? again their "love, tolerance, peace" is a... 1 guess

"The Communist Party of China, officially atheistic, initially suppressed Taoism along with other religions. During the Cultural Revolution from 1966 to 1976, many Taoist temples and sites were damaged and Monks and priests were sent to labor camps" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Taoism

"Taoist practitioners are required to register with the state-controlled Chinese Taoist Association (CTA), which exercises control over religious doctrine and personnel.^[2] Local governments restrict the construction of Taoist temples and statues, and call for abandonment of practices they deem to be "superstitious" or "feudal." The CTA dictates the proper interpretation of Taoist doctrine, and exhorts Taoist practitioners to support the Communist Party and the state. For example, a Taoist scripture reading class held by the CTA in November 2010 required participants to ‘‘fervently love the socialist motherland [and] uphold the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party.’’<sup>[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_China#Taoism

"Everything the CCP does serves a political purpose. In order to seize, maintain and consolidate its tyranny, the CCP needs to replace human nature with its evil Party nature, and the Chinese traditional culture with its Party culture of “deceit, wickedness and violence.” This destruction and substitution includes cultural relics, historical sites and ancient books, which are tangible, and such intangible things as the traditional outlook on morality, life and the world. All aspects of people’s lives are involved, including their actions, thoughts and lifestyles. At the same time, the CCP regards insignificant and superficial cultural manifestations as the “essence,” retaining them, and then puts this “essence” up as a façade. The Party keeps the semblance of tradition while replacing the real tradition with Party culture. It then deceives the people and international society behind a façade of “carrying on and developing” Chinese traditional culture." http://en.tuidang.org/nine-commentaries/6-on-how-the-chinese-communist-party-destroyed-traditional-culture.html</sup>
 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Sionnach

[liminal_luke]

To me, TDB is like this big buffet with both healthy and not so healthy dishes freely available.  I`ll admit to a little indigestion lately, but then again I knew what I was doing when I went back for seconds on the mac `n chesse.  As in so many other areas of life, I`m drawn to things that aren`t necessarily in my best interest.  If a thread has the word "Trump" in the title, for instance, I`m gonna peak.  Some people may find such threads informative or invigoratating, not me.  My challenge is to moderate my own use of TDB so as give myself the harmonious experience I come here for, rather than the cheap high of argument. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Golden Dragon Shining]

You may get a cheap high from arguments, I think most others have legitimate concerns for the future either way.

 

[liminal_luke]

You may get a cheap high from arguments, I think most others have legitimate concerns for the future either way.

 

 

 

To me, TDB is like this big buffet with both healthy and not so healthy dishes freely available.  I`ll admit to a little indigestion lately, but then again I knew what I was doing when I went back for seconds on the mac `n chesse.  

 

Excuse me for a minute, be right back.  I`m feeling a little of that indigestion right now, and...umm...waiter, where`s the men`s room?

[Golden Dragon Shining]

If you want a harmonious experience you should probably avoid forums altogether. Maybe seek out your local safe space where they will affirm all your beliefs.

[Stosh]

Safe space thats rich

I

[Apech]

For me there are just two types of moderation rules.  The first is 'no insult +' - which I think most people understand and is just there to preserve the quality of debate -  so it doesn't descend into ad hominem flame wars instead of actually staying on vaguely on topic.

 

The second is more of a boundary problem.  That is 'what is this site for?' - and the quick answer to that is 'eclectic discussions on the way'.  That's the main subject of the site in a positive sense.  And there's no reason for instance why politics should not be part of that -  although its kept mostly in off-topic because its usually not being framed in the context of  a path or system.  After all Lao Tzu gave advice to the sage-ruler and that's political.  So the inner core of the boundary of the site is 'eclectic discussions on the way' and the outer boundary is ( and this is more difficult) unacceptable or inappropriate material e.g. this is not  a porn site.  Even more difficult is extreme political views like say white supremacy -  and this really strays into the area of the reputational risk and the owner's (Sean's) decision rules.  The reputational risk means that do we the members, the staff or the owner wish TDBs to be known as a resource for certain types of material or links to certain types of site.  And if the answer is no, then that sets the outer boundary - which ceases to be an issue of free speech because as a privately owned site the owner is entitled to have preferences.

 

Pitting material is just a gentle form of moderation which goes back to the original approach which was to 'never edit other's posts'.  I'm not sure this still stands as there's much more hiding and locking going on than there used to be.  But essentially the same thing stands that instead of just deleting content that breaches the rules of hijacks and ruins otherwise interesting threads - they are moved to the Pit.

 

I get the alternative idea of the Pit as a no holds barred cage fight - which is what it was at one point - but that changed a long time ago when it became a dump for disruptive disputes and so on.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Some history

Eclectic
 

Philosophy
 

denoting or belonging to a class of ancient philosophers who did not belong to or found any recognized school of thought but selected doctrines from various schools of thought.

-
 

adjective

adjective: eclectic; adjective: Eclectic

1.

deriving ideas, style, or taste from a broad and diverse range of sources.

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Sionnach

[Trunk]

My original motivation for starting this thread was my concern for the amount of partisan political debate taking place. ... What I was wanting was some way to separate political discussions so that it’s obvious they are secondary.

That's been my concern, as well... That current politics are so addictive and divisive that those discussions here are taking more center stage than they should. I doubt that there is anything like a rule or structure change that management could do that would be helpful / appropriate. Pretty much it's our bag as participants. Maybe if it got wacky outta hand the admin could step in and - at least temporariliy - pit such discussions. ... but I don't see it currently at nor near that level. .. but it does concern me when I see my own behavior (of coming to TDBs primarily for political discussion, neglecting the spiritual discussions), focus pooling in the political threads more and more on a group basis. It's an issue re: the dynamics of the board. ... that's likely to become periodically more intense over the next few years.

[Aetherous]

My original motivation for starting this thread was my concern for the amount of partisan political debate taking place. I have no problems with vigorous discussion as such. When it relates to spiritual traditions and practices I think it’s has a valid place here, and the moderation already in place works well enough. What I was wanting was some way to separate political discussions so that it’s obvious they are secondary.

 

Off topic is where everything non-spiritual goes, like partisan politics.

 

If there were moderation so that no political disagreements could take place somehow...well, that'd be pretty weird, but I think it would be acceptable. Most people are primarily here for the cultivation side of things.

 

It's interesting to see the views of various long term cultivators...it's fair to say that we've come to find - it doesn't necessarily bring everyone to a consensus on how to go about benefiting the world.

[Marblehead]

Actually, I would like to see most, if not all, of the political discussions moved to "The Pit".  Look at our banner, there is nothing political there.

[Bubbles]

 Most people are primarily here for the cultivation side of things.

 

I wish you were right.

It seems to me that cultivation is for a lot of people here only an excuse for justifying their prejudices.

 

 

Actually, I would like to see most, if not all, of the political discussions moved to "The Pit".  Look at our banner, there is nothing political there.

 

I find this a little excessive.

Political discussions can be interesting- like any other one- as long as people are not trying to be absolutely right. I find laughable that so much people here denounce institutionalized brain-washing religions and can't see they are in the same pattern with their so-called political opinions truths, I mean incapable of seeing outside their own thoughts.

[liminal_luke]

It's interesting to see the views of various long term cultivators...it's fair to say that we've come to find - it doesn't necessarily bring everyone to a consensus on how to go about benefiting the world.

 

Agreed!  Reading about the political views of long-term cultivators has been eye opening, and one of the best things to come out of the whole off-topic section for me personally.  

 

Politics have never been my thing so I mostly stay clear, but OK...I`ll say it: I`m a lefty.  Moreover, all my friends are lefties.  I was born in California, arguably the most lefty of all states, and then I moved to Portland, Oregon, a place so lefty there`s a whole sitcom devoted to making fun of it.

 

My friends mostly think that leftie people are the good ones.  That everybody who voted for Trump is ipso facto a bad person.  And I`ve got to admit, I still find Trump voters puzzling.  That said, I`ve also learned that I can be friends with people across the entire political spectrum.  I`d love to meet up someday with both Ralis and Brain, for instance -- though perhaps not at the same time.  I`ve learned that people can see the world in a way radically different from my own and still be decent and wise and worth knowing.  

 

It`s a lesson I value.

Edited January 7, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Marblehead]

 

I find this a little excessive.

Political discussions can be interesting- like any other one- as long as people are not trying to be absolutely right. I find laughable that so much people here denounce institutionalized brain-washing religions and can't see they are in the same pattern with their so-called political opinions truths, I mean incapable of seeing outside their own thoughts.

Perhaps you are not understanding me well.  Back in the old days, The Pit was just another sub-forum but had fewer restrictions than the other sub-forums.  The thing that made it a special place was that it could be viewed by only members.  That is, the general public could not see that a Pit even existed.

 

The political discussions can continue as they have been.  However, in The Pit members can insist that they are right and the other is wrong without getting any moderators involved.  The Pit would still have the "Report" button just in case things started getting out of hand but generally speaking, if a member gets offended by the hard-headedness of any other members in The Pit they could just not go there.  Nothing spiritual to be found in The Pit anyhow.

 

So I'm not saying that political discussions as well as discussions of other controversial topics shouldn't be discussed.  What I am saying is that these topics that arouse our emotions should be someplace where the general public cannot see them.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Marblehead

[dawei]

So I'm not saying that political discussions as well as discussions of other controversial topics shouldn't be discussed.  What I am saying is that these topics that arouse our emotions should be someplace where the general public cannot see them.

 

So as this seems to be the gist of the topic and you've been pretty vocal in opinion ... no surprise 

 

What do you think of a second kind of 'Off-topic' that is basically 'Off-Grid' (out of public view)?  I've been against this idea as it feels redundant to the PIT but beginning to see some light about it.   

 

The PIT has become a much different place than likely the beginning days... now, mostly unsavory and stuff in really bad taste.... or just too contention splits where tempers arose, etc.

 

The one concern I would have about this is it might spur or encourage political or controversial topics...  but if it's out of public view, then should it matter?

 

I think Trunk brings up a really interesting point in how these kinds of threads draw us in when otherwise we might spend more time in the main areas that the forum largely represents.   Ergo...would a dark room simply attract more to the dark ?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

So as this seems to be the gist of the topic and you've been pretty vocal in opinion ... no surprise 

 

What do you think of a second kind of 'Off-topic' that is basically 'Off-Grid' (out of public view)?  I've been against this idea as it feels redundant to the PIT but beginning to see some light about it.   

 

The PIT has become a much different place than likely the beginning days... now, mostly unsavory and stuff in really bad taste.... or just too contention splits where tempers arose, etc.

 

The one concern I would have about this is it might spur or encourage political or controversial topics...  but if it's out of public view, then should it matter?

 

I think Trunk brings up a really interesting point in how these kinds of threads draw us in when otherwise we might spend more time in the main areas that the forum largely represents.   Ergo...would a dark room simply attract more to the dark ?

 

A fair summary of some of the good points in the past few points, perhaps if we did have a special hidden area for topic controversial by nature, but not unsavory per se, some extra rules beyond common rules of the site may be necessary, a "Marquis of Queensbury" set of rules for a more civilized punch out, but beyond that a would rather that such divisive issues were examined in a way that could shed light on them, and not obscure them in clouds of choking smoke, and perhaps help us all to see them in a new light.

[Marblehead]

Good considerations and I will speak to whatever I can.

So as this seems to be the gist of the topic and you've been pretty vocal in opinion ... no surprise 

 

I have never feared sharing my opinions.  AT least if anyone reads them they would be viewing a possible alternate perspective.

 

What do you think of a second kind of 'Off-topic' that is basically 'Off-Grid' (out of public view)?  I've been against this idea as it feels redundant to the PIT but beginning to see some light about it.

 

 Yes, The Pit has changed since the old days.  It has become more like a trash can.  A second kind of "Off Topic" would inspire me to suggest a sub-forum titled "Controversial Topics" with the same restrictions as The Pit except that new topics could be started there.  That way The Pit could continue its present function and it would keep off-the-wall stuff out of the Off Topic sub-forum and it could continue with its original design. 

 

The PIT has become a much different place than likely the beginning days... now, mostly unsavory and stuff in really bad taste.... or just too contention splits where tempers arose, etc.

 

The one concern I would have about this is it might spur or encourage political or controversial topics...  but if it's out of public view, then should it matter?

 

My thought also.  But then, to encourage possible further understanding about topics by those viewing the sub-forum must be considered an asset and not a liability.

 

I think Trunk brings up a really interesting point in how these kinds of threads draw us in when otherwise we might spend more time in the main areas that the forum largely represents.   Ergo...would a dark room simply attract more to the dark ?

 

I can't disagree with that perspective but I will point out that we all have free will and if we don't want to see that kind of stuff we should make the decision to not go to such a place.  In real life there are certain places each and all of us should not go depending on who we are and what our values are.  And because of this I would think that there would be very, very few "Report"s for the Mods to look into.

 

 

[Geof Nanto]

Although a great strength of this site is its diversity of opinion and subject matter, the last thing I had in mind was to create a space for more discussion of controversial topics. To my mind, other websites already more than amply cater for such discussions. What I was wanting was some means to limit these, so as to keep our focus on what makes Dao Bums unique - namely this site's non-partisan and non-denominational framework that allows and encourages a great diversity of discussion on all matters spiritual.  

 

For example, where else on the web could someone go for a discussion such as this one: Outsider's doubts.  For me, this is Dao Bums at its best; such discussions are what makes Dao Bums special and unique, whereas controversy can be found anywhere.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Yueya