Riddle Me This

[Taoist Texts]

《修真十书悟真篇卷二十八》

                袁公辅曰：千经万论，止载修丹事理，至于下手结交，火侯幽微，非遇师亲授，纵才过颜闵，则不可晓。平叔既序云：药物火候细微，无不悉备，好事者寻文辞义，岂须区区口授。今反此而言者，欲人之不敢轻议也。

 

袁(yuán)公(gōng)辅(fǔ) said: the myriad of the texts describe only the principles of refining the elixir, but as to starting the work and incepting it, and as to the subtleties of the fire phases – without getting those personally from a teacher – even if your talent surpasses   颜(yán) and 闵(mǐn), then these are hard to comprehend.

 

About that, 平(píng)叔(shū) (Zhang bo-duan) in his foreword says: the subtle fire phases of the medicine are fully knowable, those who work well at seeking the meaning of the text - why would they need a secretive personal transmission?

 

Now, contrary to the text, I urge people dare not to discuss it lightly.

 

 

 

Is not this a hoot? Yeah, me and old Zhang think it is a hoot.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

"Self-starters" normally don't need a teacher.  They know how to ask their questions and go about finding their answers.  "Self-starters" normally don't care too much about other peoples opinions.

 

I know, this is a generalized statement, but I think it applies to this discussion as well.

 

Rule number one:  Don't drink mercury.

[Taoist Texts]

Rule number one:  Don't drink mercury.

Yes. Absolutely not. Because this what happens to you if you do.

 

[Andrei]

Yes. Absolutely not. Because this what happens to you if you do.

 

 

Yes, this is true because mercury as a fluid has a higher cohesive force than water so it is not easy to break it (which is why is highly regarded in neidan or weidan circles). So if you try to drink it nothing would happen but if it is broken in tiny particles of micro or nano level then this is what happens. Which it happened with all the emperors and alchemists who tried it in their pills:

 

 

So I would take "mercury" in the taoist texts just as a metaphor for a "feeling" of strength, cohesion and fluidity which is difficult to describe otherwise if you never experienced in your body or others.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Andrei

[Andrei]

 

To produce liquid mercury (quicksilver), crushed cinnabar ore is roasted in rotary furnaces. Pure mercury separates from sulfur in this process and easily evaporates. A condensing column is used to collect the liquid metal, which is most often shipped in iron flasks.[citation needed]

 

from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar#Mining_and_extraction_of_mercury

 

Cinnabar or Dan is the ore of mercury, is actually a sulfide. If you heat up the mercury sulfide in a cauldron the reaction occurs and the sulfury becomes sulfury oxide and the mercury condensate into metallic drops. Hence the idea of a "cauldron" in the body which should be in the belly button area and a "firing process" to melt the "cinnabar" into "mercury".

 

The question is what is "cinnabar" and what is "mercury". These are metaphors for "feelings" which are basically hormones produced in your body organs. Some hormones and neurotransmitters produce certain "feelings" and each has its own schedule of production coming into use and then burned out and eliminated as a waste product. Hence the idea of a "circuit", recycling and preservation of substances in your body without the need to waste them.

 

Of course many hormones especially the sexual hormones have cycles synchronized with the moon phases.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Andrei

[Taoist Texts]

Thanks for the vid Andrei, i was meaning to do some research on it for some time. In waidan mercury is literally that, as is in ayurveda.

[dawei]

About that, 平(píng)叔(shū) (Zhang bo-duan) in his foreword says: the subtle fire phases of the medicine are fully knowable, those who work well at seeking the meaning of the text - why would they need a secretive personal transmission?

 

Now, contrary to the text, I urge people dare not to discuss it lightly.

 

So rhetorical that transmission is ultimately needed?

 

Ever translate the pic?  that would be awesome to share.

[Taomeow]

Thanks for the vid Andrei, i was meaning to do some research on it for some time. In waidan mercury is literally that, as is in ayurveda.

 

Interestingly, there's a lot more minerals, including very toxic ones, used in Ayurveda than in traditional Chinese medicine, and a lot fewer animals and animal parts.  In Chinese medicine, however, very toxic substances are used too, usually as the last resort, when all else fails.  In taoist alchemy, a similar approach exists in both waidan and neidan -- to wit, very drastic interventions are used when necessary, not used when a safer course is available. 

 

Neidan is not "safe" and waidan is not "unsafe" by themselves -- it all depends...  A transmission is neither a safe nor an unsafe method.  It is something inherited from the shamanic tradition where the new shaman had to have prepared herself and to have been chosen by the spirit realm to receive it, or else it might even kill her.   On the other hand, someone chosen for the task couldn't safely refuse it either.  

 

Most true taoist transmissions are, generally, of the same kind. 

[Taoist Texts]

 new shaman had to have prepared herself and to have been chosen by the spirit realm to receive it, or else it might even kill her.   On the other hand, someone chosen for the task couldn't safely refuse it either.   Most true taoist transmissions are, generally, of the same kind. 

Can't argue with that.

[Taoist Texts]

Ever translate the pic?  that would be awesome to share.

Not really, but the black and white circles surrounding the practitioner are tagged with trigrams and stems.

The caption above says: the external medicine taking diagram.

Top right  : brightness of the sky above divided into 12 hours.

Bottom right  : the refinement among men is divided into cinnabar stages(?).

Bottom left: w/o understanding the dark spring - the medicine is not complete.  

Top left: if words leak for a moment - no reliance, sincerity(?).

Edited January 7, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

So rhetorical that transmission is ultimately needed?

No, not needed.) The passage is structured like this:

1. Neidan is difficult to comprehend on your own from the other books.

2. But you can totally comprehend it from this book.

3. Once you comprehend it from this book - do not disclose lightly.

 

The neidaneers quote the first sentence to prove that nobody can comprehend neidan from any and all books (being either lazy or illiterate to get to  the second one). 

Then you show them the second one, and booom, they are hoisted by their own petard.

Thats why this quoting one-upmanship game is such a hoot.

[Taoist Texts]

 A Straight Talk On The Heavenly Saints’ Righteous Principles

by Wu Shouyang (aka Wu Chongxu)

 

天仙正理直论

伍冲虚子自序曰：

…

于此不可复用喻言之世，不得不显言直论，以开正门、辟正路，接引后圣，而易悟入，我之愿也！敢不勉焉而直论之哉？读此者了然解悟，后圣得《直论》而读者，必得顿然解悟。我以四十余年究竟之力而悟，后圣不终三日，彻见而彻知，并解悟二经之法旨，不大便益耶？则其超凡入圣，端在兹乎？古人有一字之师，有一句之师，曾谓此论注，已六万言矣，不可师教未来际圣真哉？即其解悟能由于此，修证亦必由于此矣！其因果必不昧。

 

时大明崇祯十二年己卯秋，邱真人门下第八派分符领节弟子冲虚伍守阳，序于南都灯市道隐斋中。

http://baike.baidu.com/view/4252452.htm

 

"In his author’s foreword, Wu says:

…

Thus, in this my book, I could not again use metaphors, had to speak straightly and clearly, to open the righteous gates, to break the righteous path, to lead the future sages, make the understanding easy – this is my sincerest desire!

 

Dare I strive not to speak straightly? The readers of my book will understand it, the future sages obtaining and reading this ‘Straight Talk’, will certainly obtain a sudden realization.

 

I was exhausting all my strength for more than 40 years to realize, yet the future sages, in less than 3 days, will see and understand all of it, and in addition will realize the dharma guidance of the Two Ways, is not it even better? Then they will transcend the mundane and enter the sainthood.

 

In the ancient times there were ‘one word teachers’, and ‘one sentence teachers’, to which were added commentaries up to 600 000 words, but without a teacher would those get you into the saintly realms?

 

On the other hand, those who understand this my book, will certainly obtain cultivation results! Thus, the karmic ties certainly will not remain unclear."

 

[Taoist Texts]

There is this question, variously worded as ‘what is the relationship between Bagua and alchemy’ or ‘explain houtian Bagua sequence as related to taoist alchemy practice’, or any such random combination thereof. It also has a certain mechanic undertone to it, sounding as if it came from a random word generator, then processed through the googletranslate system.

 

It is asked with an ill intent of arrogantly pretending to ‘check’ an opponent’s level of practice, then, regardless of the answer , declaring the answer wrong and the opponent inferior. In case of the opponent not dignifying it with an answer the opponent is declared ignorant.

 

Is not it quite a trap here? Well, it is not. This ignorant question is rather a petard of the ignorant interrogator’s own making, on which he hoists himself nice and easy.

 

故上品丹法，不用卦爻也。The highest elixir method does not employ bagua.

说与学人，火无斤两，候无卦爻。In fire there are no weights, in phases there is no bagua.

 

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Li_Daochun

 

Check this, checkers.

[oak]

 

 

Neidan is not "safe" and waidan is not "unsafe" by themselves -- it all depends...  A transmission is neither a safe nor an unsafe method.  It is something inherited from the shamanic tradition where the new shaman had to have prepared herself and to have been chosen by the spirit realm to receive it, or else it might even kill her.   On the other hand, someone chosen for the task couldn't safely refuse it either.  

 

Most true taoist transmissions are, generally, of the same kind. 

 

Is there in Taoist alchemy an equivalent to the "dark work" of western alchemy, a terrifying and painful purification as the starting point of the process? The question is for anyone who wants to answer it. Thanks.

[Taoist Texts]

Yes, there is. it  is called 'building the foundation'.

[awaken]

There are two kinds of dan dao.

 

The lately dan dao use breathe to build Mco.

 

This way hurt a lot and very dangerous.

 

I know many Chinese hurt body by Mco.

 

One of friends even emptysis.

 

The early dan dao don't do that.

[oak]

Yes, there is. it  is called 'building the foundation'.

Want to elaborate on that? Thanks.

[Taoist Texts]

Melting self is melting kalpic roots of worldly sensory perception, melting the own nature of personal characteristics, removing completely the learned polluting guest qi. It also an effort to rein in anger and to subdue desires, to vanquish self and to come back to ritual. To rein in anger and to subdue desires, to vanquish self and come back to propriety means that there should not be no thoughts nor worries, no movement and no swaying, the root and trunk should be strong and firm.

 

Similarly to building a house, for which first a foundation is tamped down, the base ground must be firm, to sustain any load of wood and bricks from which the house will be built. Now, melting self is tamping the foundation down inside, it is not some kind of melting self that takes place on the outside.

 /LYM/

[dawei]

removing completely the learned polluting guest qi. 

 

can you explain this more ?  

[oak]

Melting self is melting kalpic roots of worldly sensory perception, melting the own nature of personal characteristics, removing completely the learned polluting guest qi. It also an effort to rein in anger and to subdue desires, to vanquish self and to come back to ritual. To rein in anger and to subdue desires, to vanquish self and come back to propriety means that there should not be no thoughts nor worries, no movement and no swaying, the root and trunk should be strong and firm.

 

Similarly to building a house, for which first a foundation is tamped down, the base ground must be firm, to sustain any load of wood and bricks from which the house will be built. Now, melting self is tamping the foundation down inside, it is not some kind of melting self that takes place on the outside.

 /LYM/

 

Thank you very much for your answer. If you have the good will and patience please let me know if in Taoist alchemical literature one starts that work voluntarily or on the other hand gets caught in it due to karmic causes as somehow taomeow was suggesting.

 

Midway upon the journey of our life

I found myself within a forest dark,

For the straightforward pathway had been lost.

Ah me! how hard a thing it is to say

What was this forest savage, rough, and stern,

Which in the very thought renews the fear.

So bitter is it, death is little more;

But of the good to treat, which there I found,

Speak will I of the other things I saw there.

I cannot well repeat how there I entered,

So full was I of slumber at the moment

In which I had abandoned the true way.

The Inferno - Canto I 

Dante Alighieri

[Taoist Texts]

can you explain this more ?  

 

Sure. The wording is 与夫一切习染客气.

The "guest qi" is the karmic conditioning acquired in the course of the previous countless rebirths, plus the societal training in the current lifetime. Combined, they create a faux persona, consisting of learned likes and dislikes, which drags down the "host qi" (the real person of an individual) back into samsara.

 

In the real Quanzhen they used various harsh ways to get rid of it.

 

One hagiography further tells us that during the few days before his death,Wang Zhe subjected his top disciple, Ma Yu, to a very strange torture.

 

One day he bought four carp at the market, brought them back to the inn, and boiled them in a pot of water together with two jin (approximately 1 kg.) of mutton.

 

He left the stew to sit and spoil for over a month. He then brought the stew out before all of his disciples and followers and ordered them to eat it. Everybody refused, on the grounds that they were obeying the precept against the eating of meat and fish. 

 

Ma Yu alone complied by saying, “If the master tells him to eat, the disciple must eat it.”

Wang Zhe rebuked him by saying, “Just because you are unable to abstain [from meat and fish],you lay the blame on me!”

 

Wang Zhe then forced him to eat a whole bowl of the hideous stew and further proclaimed, “When you get to the west of the pass (Shaanxi), there will be none of this available; I give you this to eat.”

 

For the next several days,Wang Zhe made Ma Yu eat the stew for breakfast, after which he would send him off to the market to buy liquor and steamed honey-jujube treats, which Wang Zhe himself indulged in.

 

He would then ask Ma Yu, “Can you get it?”

Ma Yu failed to understand, and Wang Zhe would become even stricter. 

Night and day he flogged and berated Ma Yu, at the same time reassuring him, “Some day you will understand.” 

Ma Yu would reply, “I receive your benevolent teaching, but have no way of repaying you.”

Wang Zhe would in return reply, “You can repay me simply through your training.”

 

/Eskildsen/

[Taoist Texts]

 ... if in Taoist alchemical literature one starts that work voluntarily or on the other hand gets caught in it due to karmic causes as somehow taomeow was suggesting.

 

 

This is a great question. Also a complicated one. A proper answer to it is predicated on the fundamental difference between the chinese and the western worldviews: there is no free will in the chinese one.

 

As far as the chinese are concerned everything was fixed at the beginning of times when the first people began to cycle through the wheel of rebirths. For no reason some of them were born good, some of them were born sinful. That was just the way the cookie crumbled. When the mid-life crisis strikes, as it did Dante, the good ones start the work, because they were programmed to do so by the whole previous karma not because they have a free will to make a voluntary choice.

 

Because starting the work involves disrupting the commonsensical way of life, to the observers, and even to the person himself, the person looks possessed, crazy or just going through the mid-life crisis, all of which are not voluntary reasons.

[oak]

This is a great question. Also a complicated one. A proper answer to it is predicated on the fundamental difference between the chinese and the western worldviews: there is no free will in the chinese one.

 

As far as the chinese are concerned everything was fixed at the beginning of times when the first people began to cycle through the wheel of rebirths. For no reason some of them were born good, some of them were born sinful. That was just the way the cookie crumbled. When the mid-life crisis strikes, as it did Dante, the good ones start the work, because they were programmed to do so by the whole previous karma not because they have a free will to make a voluntary choice.

 

Because starting the work involves disrupting the commonsensical way of life, to the observers, and even to the person himself, the person looks possessed, crazy or just going through the mid-life crisis, all of which are not voluntary reasons.

 

Much as I thought. Thank you for the confirmation Taoist Texts.