Mair 4:8

[Marblehead]

When Confucius went to Ch'u, Chieh Yii, the madman of Ch'u, wandered about before his gate, saying:

 

"Phoenix!  Oh, Phoenix!
How your virtue has declined!
The future you cannot wait for,
The past you cannot pursue.

When the Way prevails under heaven,
The Sage seeks for accomplishment;
When the Way is absent from the world,
The sage seeks but to preserve his life.
In an age like that of today,
All he can hope for is to avoid punishment.

Good fortune is lighter than a feather,
But no one knows how to carry it;
Misfortune is heavier than the earth,
But no one knows how to escape it.

Enough!  Enough!
Stop confronting people with virtue;
Perilous!  Perilous!
All this rushing about dividing up the earth.

Thorny dimwit,
Don't wound my shins!
Prickly scatterbrain,
Don't wound my feet!"

[Taoist Texts]

The sage seeks but to preserve his life.
In an age like that of today,
All he can hope for is to avoid punishment.

...

That's what was life was then apparently

 

Leviathan (book) - Wikipedia

Leviathan or The Matter, Forme and Power of a Common Wealth Ecclesiasticall and .... no letters, no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. 

[Marblehead]

Not much different from today.

 

Note that:

 

When the Way prevails under heaven,
The Sage seeks for accomplishment;

 

However:

 

When the Way is absent from the world,
The sage seeks but to preserve his life.

 

 

We can actually see a little more of the useful/useless concept here.  When the Way prevails we can be useful to others but when the Way is absent we become useless to others (avoiding conflict).

[Taoist Texts]

Totally. But what about when the way prevails? Can we still choose being useless?

[Marblehead]

Totally. But what about when the way prevails? Can we still choose being useless?

 

Good question.  I don't recall Chuang Tzu speaking directly to this question but my guess would be that he would say something like, if that is what your true nature is drawing you toward then that would be fine.  (But that would mean that we would have to provide for all our life support all on our own.  Not an easy task.)

[Stosh]

Whats an example of the way not prevailing? and whats a sagely accomplishment?

[Taoist Texts]

When Confucius went to Chu, Jie-yu, the madman of Chu, as he was wandering about, passed by his door, and said, '0 Phoenix, 0 Phoenix, how is your virtue degenerated! The future is not to be waited for; the past is not to be sought again! When good order prevails in the world, the sage tries to accomplish all his service; when disorder prevails, he may preserve his life; at the present time, it is enough if he simply escape being punished. Happiness is lighter than a feather, but no one knows how to support it; calamity is heavier than the earth, and yet no one knows how to avoid it. Give over! give over approaching men with the lessons of your virtue! You are in peril! you are in peril, hurrying on where you have marked out the ground against your advance! I avoid publicity, I avoid publicity, that my path may not be injured. I pursue my course, now going backwards, now crookedly, that my feet may not be hurt.

/Legge/

 

way not prevailing - is the disintegration of the middle class.

 sagely accomplishment=the sage tries to accomplish all his service=meaning that the sage works in king's service upholding the kingdom fair and just.

 

Interestingly, both Mair and Legge misunderstood this key line

天下有道，圣人成焉；天下无道，圣人生焉。方今之时，仅免刑焉。

When good order prevails in the world, the sage tries to accomplish all his service; when disorder prevails, he may preserve his life; at the present time, it is enough if he simply escape being punished. 

 

Which, elaborated, in actuality means:

In the past when the good order was restored by the sages they would pack up and leave; when the good order would disappear, the sages would appear again (to restore it). But in present time, all they can do is to escape the ax barely, forget about restoring good order.

 

Basically the message of the madman to Confucius was: stop tilting at the windmills and save yourself while you still can.

[Marblehead]

I'll speak to Taoist Texts' post first.

 

You posting that reminded me of Nietzsche's Zarathustra.  After trying to preach to the people and make the world a better place he concluded that one should not try to change the mind of men.  They are at peace within their illusions and delusions.  If you destroy their peace they will become aggressive and kill you.

 

Basically Chuang Tzu is saying the same thing.  When you try to eliminate disorder amongst the men who benefit from the disorder you are putting your life in harm's way.  Better to go off into the mountains.  When the threat no longer exists the Sage can return to help the people.

[Marblehead]

Whats an example of the way not prevailing?

This is such a difficult question to respond to.  The best I can come up with is that it is when harmony does not exist.  When the alternations of Yin and Yang have been interfered with.  When there is no balance/harmony within a particular eco-system.

 

The Tai Chi symbol represents balance/harmony.

 

Just as the waters flow to the sea, sometimes a gentle flow, othertimes a rushing cascade.  But eventually the water reaches the sea and it becomes a part of the sea.  When we do not become a part of the eco-system we live in then we are not being consistent with the flow of the Way.

[Marblehead]

... and whats a sagely accomplishment?

Helping the common people, I would think.  Teaching them how to live in harmony with their environment and with other people.  Teaching them how to get to a point in their life such that they can follow their true nature.

[Stosh]

May I contest these answers to see where it leads? or would you prefer I flag them mentally and wait.

[Marblehead]

May I contest these answers to see where it leads? or would you prefer I flag them mentally and wait.

 

Hehehe.  Sure, go ahead and see where we can take this.  My response was the only thing that came to my mind at the time.  Maybe we can go deeper with it.  But I'm not going to drown in my own words.

[dawei]

Whats an example of the way not prevailing? and whats a sagely accomplishment?

 

'way not prevailing':  I think one example would be to look at a King's Way of rulership:  Do they rule with non-interference (Way prevailing) or interference (Way not prevailing)?

 

 Sagely Accomplishment:   'Accomplishment' is not the best translation to me but more like he is able to serve the people to help establish harmony.    Once interference is the norm, there is not much he can do to stop the axe from chopping off any dissenting heads.

[Stosh]

Hehehe.  Sure, go ahead and see where we can take this.  My response was the only thing that came to my mind at the time.  Maybe we can go deeper with it.  But I'm not going to drown in my own words.

Though I usually abstain from quotes,  here are some which would seem to indicate that at least elsewhere there are those who think the sage doesn't entertain ambitions, doesn't get involved , and isn't preoccupied with his physical body.

And so , I think there may be a grammatical issue with the quotation as presented , because it logically it may be 'non-sequitur' to the larger body of Daoist Canon. 

The Tai chi symbol you mentioned, represents the ceaseless cycle of yin and yang .. it presents no point which balance is not present, no moment which does not contain both elements of the polemic , there is merely a shifting tide of dominance-ascendancy , is there not? 

 

Lao Tzu: The Tao Te Ching / An English Translation, 1998© by Eiichi Shimomissé

 

Who can be so serene that makes gradually muddy water settle?

Who can let things grow through invisible motion?

The person in tune with Tao does not seek fulfillment,

 

Heaven and earth have no particular favor,

They see Ten Thousand Things as straw dogs (with indifference and equality).

The sage (the person in accordance with Tao) have no particular interest.

 

Each of us makes a big fuss about whether one is treasured or disgraced,

And worry about one’s own body as if it were a serious trouble.

What is this to make a big fuss about whether treasured or disgraced? 

Ultimately it ought to be to take treasuring for disgrace, and vice versa,

And simply consider loss and gain the same.

It is a folly indeed to make a big fuss about whether treasured or disgraced.

What is this to worry one’s own body as if it were a serious trouble?

 

Because we possess our body, we worry about the loss of the invaluable.

Without possessing one’s own body, why worry?

Treasure the person who worries about the world as if it were his own body,

Entrust the world to him who considers the world as his own body.

 

 

 

Lin Yutang

Nor can it be said truly that a pure-blooded Chinese could ever quite disagree with

Chuang Tzu’s ideas.

 

“Objective existences cannot harm. In a flood which reached the sky, he would not

be drowned. In a drought, though metals ran liquid and mountains were scorched up,

he would not be hot. Out of his very dust and siftings you might fashion two such

men as Yao and Shun {6}. And you would have him occupy himself with objectives!”

[Stosh]

'way not prevailing':  I think one example would be to look at a King's Way of rulership:  Do they rule with non-interference (Way prevailing) or interference (Way not prevailing)?

 

 Sagely Accomplishment:   'Accomplishment' is not the best translation to me but more like he is able to serve the people to help establish harmony.    Once interference is the norm, there is not much he can do to stop the axe from chopping off any dissenting heads.

Difficulties arise squaring these examples into a cohesive canon..

and I demonstrate these conflicts in questions ,,

the answers to which one might find strange ,, if they are indeed consequences to such a view.... 

 

Then as You see it , the 'way' is a policy of non-interference?

Natural things interfere , they eat each other , and so then , nature is not following 'the way', is that correct? 

 

This sage , who follows this advice , then , must preach ,(  because there is no aggression at the time going on to act as a foil.) But if There Is aggression by the overlords,  then he shuts up and tries to save his own skin. Is that correct? 

[dawei]

Difficulties arise squaring these examples into a cohesive canon..

and I demonstrate these conflicts in questions ,,

the answers to which one might find strange ,, if they are indeed consequences to such a view.... 

 

Then as You see it , the 'way' is a policy of non-interference?

Natural things interfere , they eat each other , and so then , nature is not following 'the way', is that correct? 

 

This sage , who follows this advice , then , must preach ,(  because there is no aggression at the time going on to act as a foil.) But if There Is aggression by the overlords,  then he shuts up and tries to save his own skin. Is that correct? 

 

this does show why the word 'non-interference' sometimes doesn't work so well  

 

When I think of the LZ lines that:  

 

Man follows earth; earth follows heaven; heaven follows Dao; Dao follows self-arising naturalness...  

 

I think it shows there is a concept of Man's Way, Earth's Way, and Heaven's Way as influenced by Dao/naturalness.  Man has the issue of the human condition contributing to his Way.   So, to me, the idea that the Way prevails, or not, seems to be in relation to Man's Way and the influences.    

 

How well we are 'following earth, following heaven, following Dao, following self-arising naturalness in such a way that the human factor is not the compelling influence.... although the paradox is that it is our choice in a sense.   

 

 

As to the sage preaching or saving his skin... I see it as the sage knows when he can have an impact or contribution on a situation and doesn't waste his time when the rule of the land is to kill any in dissent.  Better to save one's head and go fishing or up to the mountains and enjoy the air instead.

[Stosh]

Bravely bold Sir Robin
Rode forth from Camelot
He was not afraid to die
Oh, brave Sir Robin
He was not at all afraid
To be killed in nasty ways
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin

He was not in the least bit scared
To be mashed into a pulp
Or to have his eyes gouged out
And his elbows broken
To have his kneecaps split
And his body burned away
And his limbs all hacked and mangled
Brave Sir Robin

His head smashed in
And his heart cut out
And his liver removed
And his bowels unplugged
And his nostrils raped
And his bottom burnt off
And his penis split and his...

"That's... that's enough music for now, lads."

Read more: Monty Python - Brave Sir Robin Ran Away Lyrics | MetroLyrics 

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

 

Though I usually abstain from quotes,  here are some which would seem to indicate that at least elsewhere there are those who think the sage doesn't entertain ambitions, doesn't get involved , and isn't preoccupied with his physical body.

And so , I think there may be a grammatical issue with the quotation as presented , because it logically it may be 'non-sequitur' to the larger body of Daoist Canon. 

 

The Tai chi symbol you mentioned, represents the ceaseless cycle of yin and yang .. it presents no point which balance is not present, no moment which does not contain both elements of the polemic , there is merely a shifting tide of dominance-ascendancy , is there not? 

 

Yes, there are some who consider the Sage to be totally apathetic.  I don't.  Why else would they take in students?

 

Yes, no mater where we are within the Tai Chi symbol there is always a return to perfect harmony.

[Stosh]

Yes, there are some who consider the Sage to be totally apathetic.  I don't.  Why else would they take in students?

 

Yes, no mater where we are within the Tai Chi symbol there is always a return to perfect harmony.

There obviously are two types of 'sage' to consider, the mythical sage who lives on dew and flies around, and the earthly guy who has to make a living, and still has all the basic human attributes. 

Obviously the real guy is the greater sage of the two, , understood, for obvious reasons.

 

Well we actually may disagree on the tai chi  since I didnt say that there is a return to perfect harmony , I said that the balance is present at all points. 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

There obviously are two types of 'sage' to consider, the mythical sage who lives on dew and flies around, and the earthly guy who has to make a living, and still has all the basic human attributes. 

Obviously the real guy is the greater sage of the two, , understood, for obvious reasons.

 

I don't hold much faith in the existence of the mythical type. 

 

Well we actually may disagree on the tai chi  since I didnt say that there is a return to perfect harmony , I said that the balance is present at all points. 

 

You are allowed to disagree.  You know that.  But consider that I believe that perfect harmony lasts for only a short time because of the dynamics of life.

[cold]

No one is completely useless, they can serve as a bad example, after all.