"Sudden enlightenment" in daoism

[A.A.Khokhlov]

"Sudden enlightenment" is a later buddhist term. A lot of buddhist are waiting for it to come one day...

 

But we are mostly daoists and are practicing this system. Who knows how "Sudden enlightenment" will be in Chinese? Does it have any relation to becoming a xian (immortal)?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

[Marblehead]

"Enlightenment" is not belief system specific.  The term "enlightenment" is tricky though - many different understandings of what it actually is.

 

But one can become suddenly enlightened, I think.  Perhaps by just sitting and meditating when all of a sudden everything that you have been practicing comes together in your mind.

 

And there are a number of Buddhists here who enjoy discussing Daoist concepts but more often than not they will use terms that have meaning to them.

 

I will add that there are numerous commonalities between Daoism and Buddhism even if we do not consider the religious aspects of either.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Marblehead

[johndoe2012]

Depends on what you mean by immortal?

 

If immortal means the awareness you already are rather than the belief that you are the body then you can 'suddenly' become immortal.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Yes, you can be suddenly enlightenment because what you are striving for with practice or getting in one second is generally the same and already here. 

 

What is true is here, if you cultivate gradually you cultivate conventional and illusions. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[damdao]

We must not assume that buddhism has one and only one characterization for elightenment. So enlightenment is not something objective. And as AAK said, a lot buddhists are waiting for it, and in some cases they can project some experience and call it enlightenment (we have to remember that buddha means awakened not enlightened, this is more a christian, islamic thing).

If we follow the dialogs between the Dalai Lama and different buddhist masters, be it chan or seon, we can see that they are speaking of different things.

If we read mahayana sutras with its description of the bodhisattvas of the tenth bhumi, for instance, it is difficult to see its relation with the chan wù  悟。

Why, then, we need to speak of sudden enlightenment in a science so complex as neidan?

Edited January 9, 2017 by damdao

[SeekerOfHealing]

Sudden enlightenment = dharmakaya. You guys speaking your delusions about buddhism.

[dawei]

"Sudden enlightenment" translated in taoist terms would be the "realization of the valley spirit".

In other words: It's a necessary step in the quest for immortality and a subsequent tool for achieving a high development in taoist alchemy.

But in itself it doesn't do much and it doesn't mean a high development, it rather means a discovery.

 

I find that rather 'enlightening'....  would like to hear more if  you care to share

 

I read somewhere that Xing and Ming are like, realization of longevity vs Enlightenment ;  Daoist vs Buddhist.

 

I've wondered why the daoist brought in the Buddhist concept of enlightenment given there is thousands of years of those who "attained Dao"...   why bother to add in enlightenment at all ?

[damdao]

I find that rather 'enlightening'....  would like to hear more if  you care to share

 

I read somewhere that Xing and Ming are like, realization of longevity vs Enlightenment ;  Daoist vs Buddhist.

 

I've wondered why the daoist brought in the Buddhist concept of enlightenment given there is thousands of years of those who "attained Dao"...   why bother to add in enlightenment at all ?

 

I was about to say: there is no enlightenment in daoism.

Here one of the best reflections ever about this subject:

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/20620-kunlun4-years-later/?p=297898

[awaken]

悟真篇，use Wu 悟 as the first word of the title, how can you say there is no enlightment in Daoist?

 

Daoist cultivation is not only the skills of breathe you learned from your school.

 

Daoist cultivation is more than you know.

[damdao]

悟真篇，use Wu 悟 as the first word of the title, how can you say there is no enlightment in Daoist?

 

Daoist cultivation is not only the skills of breathe you learned from your school.

 

Daoist cultivation is more than you know.

 

Ok, here we go again...

Ok, let's finish with shorter way, otherwise it wil be the never ending story...

First, read the link I provided.

Second,  悟 does not meaning enlightenment. And buddha is not an enlightened being. In western countries "light" is the light of God bestowed upon the soul. See Saint Agustin. The story is larger than that and we need to consider neoplatonism, for instance. But, the indian concept is different Buddha from root budh means to realize, to awake. The same as 悟.

I daere to say that the most similar thing to the western enlightment is found in confucianism with the concept of 明。And I know that it is present in Daodejing. But wù is not enlightenment.

So, qing wen, stop your barking against a school you know nothing.

[awaken]

四事誰能悟 who can enlightment the four things

三乘教愈明three religions are more clear

達斯玄妙理reach the magical principles

便是證圓成just prove the round succeed

 

Sorry, I can't translate better. Please find another version yourself if you need.

 

From 王重陽wang chown yang

 

Who say there is no enlightment in Daoist

[awaken]

You said 悟 is not enlightment.

 

Enlightment is translated as 悟 in Chinese.

 

You mean Chinese 悟 has different meaning in your school?

[awaken]

Ok, here we go again...

Ok, let's finish with shorter way, otherwise it wil be the never ending story...

First, read the link I provided.

Second, 悟 does not meaning enlightenment. And buddha is not an enlightened being. In western countries "light" is the light of God bestowed upon the soul. See Saint Agustin. The story is larger than that and we need to consider neoplatonism, for instance. But, the indian concept is different Buddha from root budh means to realize, to awake. The same as 悟.

I daere to say that the most similar thing to the western enlightment is found in confucianism with the concept of 明。And I know that it is present in Daodejing. But wù is not enlightenment.

So, qing wen, stop your barking against a school you know nothing.

You are attacking me.

 

You use "barking" the word.

 

Did your school teach you how to bark?

Edited January 10, 2017 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

You are attacking me.

 

You use "barking" the word.

 

Did your school teach you how to bark?

 

For them likening a person to a dog is an insult. To the person. It seems they hate dogs.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[damdao]

四事誰能悟 who can enlightment the four things

 

And what is it supposed to mean?

[damdao]

You said 悟 is not enlightment.

 

Enlightment is translated as 悟 in Chinese.

 

You mean Chinese 悟 has different meaning in your school?

From the original words of Buddha in English?

悟 is a good translation for budh, to awake, to realize, budh in sanskrit does not means enlightenment.

Ming is closer to the ideo of "light" than wu.

 

Here from Buddhist Chinese Sanskrit Dictionary by Hirakawa, 

and for check Sanskrit English  http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/

[damdao]

(...)

 

Daoist cultivation is not only the skills of breathe you learned from your school.

 

(...)

 

 

(..)

 

Did your school teach you how to bark?

 

Leaving aside the personal references to what I know (that abstract, irrelevant and you cannot prove), your belittling statements are not a way to attack someone?

"bark" is not an insult, comes from the idiom "barking up to the wrong tree", so it is not an insulting comparison with a dog. So I did not allude to your human condition and you did attack me.

And of course,  you are belittling to a school of which you know nothing. 

 

For the record, I am writing from my personal perspective not in representation of the school, I am a student but not a disciple, and I am the only responsible for chinese wrong translations, for my references to neoplatonism that come from college, to islamism, sufism and buddhism that come from later research in college, etc. So it will be difficult to state the origin of every thing I say.

So, again, qing wen, stop putting the your innuendo "your school" that you aims against many of us as this were something wrong. Some of us are studying in Dao De Centre and it is a great school with great teachers, some are initiated disciples and some are teachers. So have arguments instead of saying always "your school teach that" "your true teacher teaches that" etc. 

[damdao]

The OP was about "sudden elightenment" in neidan.

What I said was a side note, I don't want to derail more the thread.

[YiYinYiYang]

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Edited August 13, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[A.A.Khokhlov]

"Enlightenment" is not belief system specific.  The term "enlightenment" is tricky though - many different understandings of what it actually is.

 

But one can become suddenly enlightened, I think.  Perhaps by just sitting and meditating when all of a sudden everything that you have been practicing comes together in your mind.

 

And there are a number of Buddhists here who enjoy discussing Daoist concepts but more often than not they will use terms that have meaning to them.

 

I will add that there are numerous commonalities between Daoism and Buddhism even if we do not consider the religious aspects of either.

 

Agree. However it is quite interesting how the specific term will be in Chinese.

 

Depends on what you mean by immortal?

 

If immortal means the awareness you already are rather than the belief that you are the body then you can 'suddenly' become immortal.

 

Did I get you right? You mean awareness is another word for enlightenment. 

 

It is widening our question. We need to find a Chinese word meaning both "enlightenment" and "awareness" to check this concept in Daoism.

 

Traditionally in Daoism immortal doesn't mean awareness (such things unfortunately do not seem to be achievable by awareness).

 

Yes, you can be suddenly enlightenment because what you are striving for with practice or getting in one second is generally the same and already here. 

 

What is true is here, if you cultivate gradually you cultivate conventional and illusions. 

 

Daoist Patriarchs of all epochs were all writing about sequence of "laying the foundation", "refining jing to qi", "refining qi to shen", "refining shen to the void". You are blaiming them all do not know how to perform self-cultivation. Weak position, I think.

 

"Sudden enlightenment" translated in taoist terms would be the "realization of the valley spirit".

In other words: It's a necessary step in the quest for immortality and a subsequent tool for achieving a high development in taoist alchemy.

But in itself it doesn't do much and it doesn't mean a high development, it rather means a discovery.

 

Thank you for your opinion.

 

Sudden enlightenment = dharmakaya. You guys speaking your delusions about buddhism.

 

Purpose of this topic is to understand the connection of Daoism and Buddhism through the concept of "sudden enlightenment". First we need to find a proper Chinese term.

 

I find that rather 'enlightening'....  would like to hear more if  you care to share

 

I read somewhere that Xing and Ming are like, realization of longevity vs Enlightenment ;  Daoist vs Buddhist.

 

I've wondered why the daoist brought in the Buddhist concept of enlightenment given there is thousands of years of those who "attained Dao"...   why bother to add in enlightenment at all ?

 

Agree. In addition, traditional Schools are saying that you need to cultivate both sides - Xing and Ming, reaching them uniting into One. Which could be hypotetically called "enlightened Xing" with power of Ming. The name of it is Yangshen (= Yang Xing = Ming Xing )

 

悟真篇，use Wu 悟 as the first word of the title, how can you say there is no enlightment in Daoist?

 

Daoist cultivation is not only the skills of breathe you learned from your school.

 

Daoist cultivation is more than you know.

 

Very nice, thank you. So far we have 悟 as a hypothesis for enlightenment. Lets see what does it mean in translation from Chinese:

 

悟 - understand, comprehend with mind, awake, (in philosophy) understand the essense of things.

 

All meanings so far refer to mind, Xing, not sign of Ming or immortality here...

 

Could there be any other appropriate Chinese terms?

 

From the original words of Buddha in English?

悟 is a good translation for budh, to awake, to realize, budh in sanskrit does not means enlightenment.

Ming is closer to the ideo of "light" than wu.

 

Here from Buddhist Chinese Sanskrit Dictionary by Hirakawa, 

and for check Sanskrit English  http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/

 

Thank you damdao, very interesting.

 

Thanks Damdao, you point to many interesting tracks for further researches.

 

 顿悟 doesn't mean "Sudden enlightment" and anybody unsure about the meaning can do the ethymological research and make own conlusions about the validity of the opinion given by people exposing their enlightened confusion without shame.

 

Who knows, may be we will manage to find some more interesting Chinese terms?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

just as a side note:

Regarding the taoist art on your school's website, I ask myself:

Does your school already have a "WuLiu Pai car"???

Because you have one of the best airbrush artists of the world in Saint Petersburg: Alina Tarasenko!

Her custom airbrush art on cars is incredible!

 

I'm glad you love arts. Our website is very bright, it is true

We are working on new one, clarifying some translations, creating new articles, making it more comfortable to use.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[SeekerOfHealing]

No?

 

dharmakaya is not empty and base ground of the mind.