"Sudden enlightenment" in daoism

[Wells]

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Edited January 12, 2017 by Wells

[LaoZiDao]

You are follower of certain ideas and conceptions without any proof in hand same with those buddhist. Escaping wheel of samsara is not attaining anything. If yangshen would be possibile Buddha would speak about it and way to realize it but yang sheng is not permanent. Entering jhanas you attain yang sheng for X milions of billions of years but then you need to go cultivate further.

To be honest, you are follower of your own certain ideas and conceptions without any proof or anything to back up what you say (not that I've seen so far). Mixing this and that, telling you can create Ming methods simply overnight, probably by accident.

 

You've obviously read a lot of books (probably not in Chinese or Sanskrit?) about a lot of different traditions.. which is good for you, but maybe too many books... at a point all such books become a clutter in the mind and cause many blocks.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Also Buddha taught Ming Gong to other students to become immortal and wait for another Buddha to come. I showed also that there are many immortal arhants which come to the good students flying thru walls etc.

 

but hey ignore all the facts because wu liu pai knows better.

Edited January 11, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[C T]

Hmm it's not doubtful at all. Many Buddhists work with Xing, Xing without Ming, result is a strong Xing, weak Ming, hence why it's possible to release a Yin spirit, because of the Yin state of the body from long time sitting, compare it to dying person..

 

What allows Yin spirit to release and cause death to regular man? Because of weak Ming - i.e. depleted yuanqi)

 

As for sources, how about Zhongliquan.

 

He mentions about it. You can check it in first chapter of Zhong lu chuan dao ji.

 

If I have a moment I'll provide a quote.

how many Buddhists do you personally know? 

[LaoZiDao]

You should check out tummo if you believe that Buddhists don't have Ming Gong or don't accomplish serious results in tantien cultivation! Because those kind of buddhist exercises are anything but Xing Gong.

Maybe read more carefully, I said most Buddhists, Huineng for example, great. Bodhidharma, I didn't criticise.

 

Also, about your comment: if there is "anything but Xing gong" that is also sad, because both Xing and Ming gong are needed.

[Wells]

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Edited January 12, 2017 by Wells

[LaoZiDao]

how many Buddhists do you personally know?

Well, I've met plenty, I have family friends who are also Buddhists (Chinese who live in China). I also happen to live very close to one of the biggest Buddhists temple in southern hemisphere as well. Oh also have an acquaintance of a family member who is living monastery life in this temple.

 

So I've met and know enough.

 

Don't really see what point you're trying to make by asking other than some attempt at a small personal jab. Sorry it didn't work out.

[SeekerOfHealing]

yuan qi is very easy to regenerate. what's the deal? in stillness yuan qi regenerate, when breath becomes subtle is breathing yuanqi etc.

 

 

[C T]

Well, I've met plenty, I have family friends who are also Buddhists (Chinese who live in China). I also happen to live very close to one of the biggest Buddhists temple in southern hemisphere as well. Oh also have an acquaintance of a family member who is living monastery life in this temple.

 

So I've met and know enough.

 

Don't really see what point you're trying to make by asking other than some attempt at a small personal jab. Sorry it didn't work out.

it was an honest question but if you took it as a jab, maybe you might want to reassess your sensitivities. 

 

How would you have asked the question without it appearing to resemble a jab? 

[Mudfoot]

Or is that just a reflection of ancient friction between buddhism and daoism?

You know the stories, the buddhist that becomes a yin ghost, countered with the daoist that can fly but lacks insight.

[damdao]

Sudden Enlightenment is the key objective of Tibetan Buddhism. (...)

 

I think this statement should be contextualized.

In fact, there was a meeting between Hyonggak Sunim and the Dalai Lama and the later, while not opposing the idea of sudden enlightenment, spoke about the several layers of the mind and the need of constant cultivation. In fact, most tibetan buddhists school are gradualists. The expulsion of the "sudden" teachings is studied by Namkhai Norbu in an article "Zen and Dzogchen" because dzogchen has a "sudden" point of view (among others things).

What is the key objective of tibetan buddhism as a whole is awakening, the same as in buddhism in general but with some nuances. 

[damdao]

(...)

I saw a better guess, 見性, Jian-xin

 

(...)

 

Interestingly, this is how the lineage Harada-Yasutani calls the experience. 

They read it in japanese as kenshou, while reserve the term satori (equivalent of 悟 wù) for a more complete experience.

[LaoZiDao]

You should check out tummo if you believe that Buddhists don't have Ming Gong or don't accomplish serious results in tantien and central channel cultivation! Because those kind of buddhist exercises are anything but Xing Gong.

 

I had a quick look, maybe you can provide something you have found about it?

 

I did not see much that made me think it is anything like Minggong in Daoism. I saw a lot of mention about working with post-heaven energy, and "visualization" etc.

[LaoZiDao]

 

I doubt that.

Sources?

 

 

 

钟曰：“法有三成者，小成、中成、大成之不同也。

Zhong said: Methods have 3 levels of achievement, small achievement, middle achievement, great achievement, each are distinct.

 

仙有五等者，鬼仙、人仙、地仙、神仙、天仙之不等，皆是仙也。

Xians have 5 classses, Gui Xian, Ren Xian, Di Xian, Shen Xian, Tian Xian, each differ, but each one is Xian (immortal).

 

鬼仙不离于鬼，人仙不离于人，地仙不离于地，神仙不离于神，天仙不离于天。

Gui Xian not leave from [realm of] ghosts, Ren Xian not able to leave from the humans [realm], Di Xian not leave able to leave from the earth  [realm], Shen Xian not able to leave from spirit [realm], Tian Xian not able to leave from heaven [realm].

吕曰：“所谓鬼仙者，何也?"

Lu said: What is known as Gui Xian (Ghost/devil immortal)?

钟曰：“鬼仙者，五仙之下一也。

Zhong said: Gui Xian, out of the 5 Xian's they are the first and lowest level of Xian.

 

 

...Skipped small part where Zhongliquan continues to explain some features about Guixian (you can check original text your self)... and finishes with:

 

 

虽不轮回，又难返蓬瀛。终无所归，止于投胎就舍而已。

Gui Xian, while not repeatedly going through Samsara, they have not place to return, only merely stop the reincarnation and nothing more."

 

吕曰：“是此鬼仙，行何术、用何功而致如此？”  

Lu said: Right that is Gui Xian, so how to reach this?

 

钟曰：“修持之人，始也不悟大道，而欲于速成。形如搞木，心若死灰，神识内守，一志不散。定中以出阴神，乃清灵之鬼，非纯阳之仙。以其一志阴灵不散，故曰鬼仙。虽曰仙，其实鬼也。古今崇释之徒，用功到此，乃曰得道，诚可笑也。”

Zhong said: By beginning cultivation and not realizing the Great Dao, as well as desire to attain the goal quickly. Cultivation can be compared to a still sitting tree, the heart as if cold and dead ashes, Shen knowledge internally conserve, not to scatter the mind aspirations and concentration. By calmness and stabilizing therefore the Yin Shen can release, it is the clear spirit of a Ghost, pure Yin, without Yang, it is Immortal. Because using the mind aspirations and concentration the Yin spirit wont scatter, for these reasons we call it Gui Xian. Although its called  Xian, it's actually a Gui [ghost \ devil \ spirit of dead].  From ancient times til now Buddhist disciples, hardworking diligent practice therefore they call it attained the Dao, truly ridiculous and laughable.

 

...Zhongliquan also continues to explain about each other level, Renxian, Dixian, Shenxian, Tianxian etc which you can check yourself...

 

P.S. Any one is welcome to suggest corrections on the translation, it's probably not perfect - I am no professional.

Edited January 12, 2017 by LaoZiDao

[Gerard]

Nothing is sudden. It just happens and that's it! After that you need to keep living as before, so things are not really over after all. BUT...this path is all about removing all the fetters...by far the hardest part. Enlightenment will logically follow once the 'building/polishing/hard labour/etc' job is done. Ananda lied down to take a nap after a whole night spent doing walking meditation and he became enlightened in his sleep. Prior to that he removed most of the fetters after many years cultivating the mind and living as a monk.

 

The worst aspect is seeking enlightenment. Do not or you'll fail. Practice with a sincere mind and earnest effort while living the present moment and you'll live a life of peace and calm. Calmness is the vital element as it is strongly associated with the Fire element/Heart.

[Daeluin]

Damo Mitchell's White Moon on the Mountain Peak has a chapter on the stages of immortality which has given me some perspective on this.

 

 

Earthly Immortals

The 'Earthly immortals' were those immortals who were said to have consolidated their Ming to such a level that they were beyond the usual limitations of biological ageing processes. They could live for hundreds, if not thousands, of years without showing any obvious signs of ageing. Many of the emperors of ancient China are said to have sought out this level of attainment and some are said to have died in the pursuit of this goal through dangerous means. Mastery of this level must involve being able to control the movement of the congenital [xiantian] into the acquired [houtian] Jing to such a level that the developmental processes of Jing are put into stasis. These beings are still rumoured to live in many of the mountains throughout China and South East Asia, and it seems that many of the local villages in the rural regions of China had 'urban legends' of the immortals of ancient times still living up in the nearby mountains. On the point of their death, which they choose, the Earthly immortals are said to dissolve into the light of the diamond or rainbow body and move into the immortal realm.

 

Ghost Immortals

The rather forlorn-sounding 'ghost immortals' are those who have fallen into the path of delusion somewhere in their practices. Although the Xing was taken to the stage of being able to live independently, the practitioner still had acquired bonds to the lower realms of Ming. Upon freeing themselves from the body they became divided from the process of transmigration but ended up being stuck on the Earthly realm rather than being transported up into the immortal realm. They basically then live as a kind of 'light being' which can never move beyond their current attachment to the realm of existence. This is considered something of a mistake int he practice of Nei Dan!

 

Spirit Immortals

'Spirit immortals' have consolidated their Shen to the point of being able to live independently of the body through mastery of the golden embryo and the practice of the diamond or rainbow body. Despite this, they are only really immortals in that they are separated from the process of transmigration for a very long time. Their Xing and Ming were cultivated to the point of being able to escape the cycle of rebirth, but they never truly opened up the full connection to Dao through the purification of their Xin. They are said to exist within the realm of pure spirit for potentially hundreds of years but then inevitably begin to be drawn back into the cycle of existence again.

 

Heavenly Immortals

'Heavenly immortals' are those who are said to have truly attained immortality. They have purified the true consciousness and freed themselves from the bondages of both Xing and Ming. After a long life of vibrant health and wisdom, they fully attain the golden embryo and move into the various layers of the immortal realm, free from the cycle of rebirth. Very few are said to have attained this level of skill.

 

 

 

A couple of pages earlier....

 

 

 

... Only when they are ready do the alchemists choose to shed their physical body in order to live fully as a spiritual entity. When this happens, they actualize the famed 'rainbow body' of Buddhism, which is also known as the 'diamond body' within Daoism. At this stage the physical body fully dissolves, leaving only Shen behind. In the case of the rainbow body, there is a full dissolving into emptiness which results in the appearance of the five colours of the elements as they break down and return to Wuji. It has been recorded many times, mostly within the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, that the practitioner who actualizes the 'rainbow body' vanishes, leaving only their clothes in a heap, their hair and their nails. As they vanish, a rainbow-coloured light either radiates out from them or appears in the sky above the site of their death.

 

'Diamond body' is a little different because in this case the five lights of spirit do not break down; instead, the full white light of Shen radiates out from the practitioner's body at the point of their 'dissolving', which is an indicator of the 'golden embryo' escaping its physical anchor where it will continue to exist as a spiritual entity commonly known as a Xian - an immortal.

 

 

 

The perspective given here would appear to indeed agree that certain Xing only practices can land one in a trap, but it also makes more clear the nature of the rainbow body often associated with Tibetan Buddhism.

[Sudhamma]

@LaoZiDao, 'Gui Xian': Gui meaning Devil, a Hell being, Xian meaning an Immortal. Being an immortal in the realm of Hell(s), is a rebirth from the human realm to a hellish realm. Any being existing within any of the 6 Realms, including the Heavens are subjected to Samsara and hence subject to the cause and effect of karma. I suppose that in your spiritual training, you have been taught tangent to this typical and standard Buddhist belief. To stop samsaric existence, karma needs to be expired.

[Wells]

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Edited January 12, 2017 by Wells

[LaoZiDao]

So, according to Zhongliquan, every Buddhist (including the historical Buddha of course) who achieves enlightenment (I guess that's what he meant with "attaining the dao", although he obviously doesn't even know the correct buddhist words for it)

as the result ends up as a ghost without energy and consciousness (as he is has no yang) haunting the netherworlds and stuck there forever...until a taoist immortal yang shen comes along, has pity and saves the miserable ghost immortal!

 

And, has some superior taoist yang shen saved the poor historical Buddha from his miserable fate yet...?

 

Plus:

You believe that without questioning because Zhongliquan is some sort of authority for you.

All together, very telling in several ways I'd say!

Your attitude is foul, Wells.

 

You seem to have no interest in Daoist discussions? or any respect for anything about Daoism. Zhongliqian IS an authority inin Chinese Daoist circles. As is Ludonbin.

 

Anyway your have provided nothing for your arguments except a lot of emotions.. can you support your arguments with anything we can all discuss?

Edited January 12, 2017 by LaoZiDao

[Wells]

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Edited January 12, 2017 by Wells

[LaoZiDao]

I offered a lot of intelligent critique concerning our untouchable icon Zhongliquan who is able to sum up all different buddhist practices in one sentence and with one kind of practice, but your mind is too brainwashed to even think about it!

 

So I repeat:

Has some superior taoist yang shen immortal saved the poor historical Buddha from his miserable fate of haunting the hell realms forever as a ghost (devil) without consciousness yet...?

Firstly I think you have misconceptions about yangshen saving Gui. Secondly I think you missed the main point Zhongliquan made. you continue to ramble on fueled with emotion. Calm down and it can be discussed in civilised way. We are all here to learn and grow, right? Edited January 12, 2017 by LaoZiDao

[LaoZiDao]

@LaoZiDao, 'Gui Xian': Gui meaning Devil, a Hell being, Xian meaning an Immortal. Being an immortal in the realm of Hell(s), is a rebirth from the human realm to a hellish realm. Any being existing within any of the 6 Realms, including the Heavens are subjected to Samsara and hence subject to the cause and effect of karma. I suppose that in your spiritual training, you have been taught tangent to this typical and standard Buddhist belief. To stop samsaric existence, karma needs to be expired.

Thank for interesting topic.

 

About this "heavenly realm":

 

"In Buddhist tradition, the Deva realm is populated by godlike beings who enjoy great power, wealth and long life. They live in splendor and happiness. Yet even the Devas grow old and die. Further, their privilege and exalted status blind them to the suffering of others, so in spite of their long lives they have neither wisdom nor compassion. The privileged Devas will be reborn in another of the Six Realms."

 

"

Deva. Deva-gati in Sanskrit. Tendō 天道 in Japanese. The realm of heavenly beings filled with pleasure; the deva hold godlike powers; some reign over celestial kingdoms; most live in delightful happiness and splendor; they live for countless ages, but even the Deva belong to the world of suffering (samsara) -- for their powers blind them to the world of suffering and fill them with pride -- and thus even the Deva grow old and die; some say that because their pleasure is greatest, so too is their misery"

 

I agree about the gui.

 

About heaven realm in Samsara, it seems to be nothing in common with what Daoists achieve with Yangshen, Yangshen is outside of Samsara, beyond Taiji.

[Wells]

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Edited January 12, 2017 by Wells

[Marblehead]

I've been told to go to hell numerous times and I'm not even a Buddhist.

[Wells]

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Edited January 12, 2017 by Wells