"Sudden enlightenment" in daoism

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[SeekerOfHealing]

I have personal experience with Bodhisattvas and Buddhas. Even yesterday and I can get my hand cut off that those bodhisattvas who attained really high level of cultivation attained yang shen and they are beyond taji creating their own heaven. 

 

Show me which immortal entered hell to liberate all beings there? "If not I then who?" 

 

You really need to study it well and then practice that esoteric practices of buddhist realized what is called yang shen. 

 

Even in classic suttas you have stage of non returner. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[Sudhamma]

II am a Buddhist with the Theravaden tradition and am ignorant with Daoism terms like yangshen (positive energy?).  Therefore, I won't be able to comment on Daoist principles and terms in depth. On the other hand, I will share my little Buddhist knowledge with anyone who is willing to hear and appreciate, of course, I stand to be corrected for whatever errors or misunderstanding I may have on Buddhism. And, the subject here is 'Sudden Enlightenment' posted by A.A.Khokhlov.

 

I've read postings in other topics and surprised that some didn't have even an ioata of patience and civilness or stay focus on the subject without being abusive. Some of us do really need this sudden enlightenment to stay on track to obtain the treasured Dao. Given the multiple faiths being 'represented' in TDB, there bound to be dissenting views on issues being discussed. Can't we agree to disagree?

[Daeluin]

The zhuang lu quan dao ji is said to have been channeled. Indeed zhongliquan and ludongbin are daoist figures of authority, but this message attributed to them still needed to pass through the channeler. These days we know that channelers are limited by their own world view - the channelling is limited to the vocabulary and perspectives available.

 

It is said to be best to know one's self before others. To me it is more valuable to hear one speak their own truth than it is to hear one pass judgments upon others.

 

These modern days it is easy to see different branches of daoist alchemy contend with each other, and they follow the same basic school of thought! One school sees another school doing something it doesn't do and passes judgment without having the full transmission of how this method may be used to reach the dao. It is very common for ANY method to be misused and to lead astray. What is important is that a method reach the way, and to not use methods which one does not know how to use correctly. Beyond this important point, talking about how any method may be used falsely is itself an endless pursuit.

 

Back to our point, it is difficult to judge the perspective and experience our channeler had about buddhist practices. It could be their exposure to these practices were not through enlightened teachers and led to bad experiences which taught the channeler a lesson to avoid buddhism altogether. When the channeling came through, its message may have been affected by these experiences and judgments.

 

In any case, we do not know, but it is easy to see that the emphasis isn't as much about a category of people as about practices that lead to ghost immortality. To say an entire category of people always do one thing one way is a bit of a reach.

 

These days, with our great collections of knowledge, it is easy to see how much daoism embraced buddhist concepts, and also easy to make the connection between xing only practices and ghost immortality. The practice of tummo leads to the generation of great heat which, in my limited knowledge, indeed seems only possible though the refinement of ming. The perspective from my last post on the rainbow body of Tibetan Buddhism too indicates that these buddhists must not be working with Xing alone.

 

This modern era sees many traditions sharing with each other, and these dialogues as each works to understand the other are serving an important purpose, in my opinion. We just need to remember that these explorations first lead externally into the 10,000 before we are able to develop enough perspective to see things clearly and understand how different methods may be used correctly in different ways. The purpose this serves is related to the global ascendancy, which may or may not be helpful right now in one's own internal walk. It is likely still most important for one to focus on knowing one's self before others.

[damdao]

Ok,

why do you people even bother with buddhist enlightenment,

if it only means in your opinion "to go to hell forever"?

 

(...)

 

(I left the picture because is cool)

 

The important thing from a daoist point of view is if there are practices that one should not do if one wants to follow the path named Da Dao.

In this context saying that all buddhists ends as guixian is hyperbolic in two senses: 1. not all end as (gui)xian, 2. not all ends as gui. It means that not all people doing a wrong practice perfects it to the point of becoming an immortal. Most of them follow the samsara.

On the other hand Daoists respect Buddhism. And the presence of a ming method in buddhism is evident when you see many natural mummies, being one of the most famous that of Hui Neng (besides, Shenxiu who is regarded as a chan patriarch lived one hundred of years).

[This kind of discussion had its precedent in yoga where some say that a naked cittavrittinirodha (cessation of mind-modifications) only leds to a laya state and no more.]

Zhong-Lü critique is against quietistic and yin methods and the buddhism (and daoism, because the critique began at home) aimed is of that kind but it is not the whole buddhism.

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[LaoZiDao]

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I saw these messages last night and was going to reply. Why do you clear them? You don't stand by your words?

[Gerard]

Leave the buddhists and their meaningless and incomplete practices alone,

who cares that some of them actually

If you actually practiced SERIOUSLY you wouldn't make that comment, let alone have enough time or interest to write on this forum.

 

Labels, labels. Buddhist, Taoist, Sufi, Christian, Hindu...go beyond religion.

 

Internetitis it's a serious disease.

[dwai]

To not confuse the matter further, in the Vedantic tradition of Hindu dharma, enlightenment is sudden. It is explained as such - practice/sadhana is like tending to and watering a fruit tree. Enlightenment is like the ripening of a fruit. When the fruit is ripe and ready, it will "suddenly" break free from the tree and fall to the ground.

 

In terms of meditation and jnana (spiritual knowledge), all the studying and contemplation, supported by a proper mediation practice is preparatory. When the individual is ready, realization is sudden and complete. The knowledge and contemplation helps the mind understand and "fall in line" when the practice occurs. Eventually, the mind falls into the source of everything (we call it the True Self, Atman or Brahman, Daoists call it Dao) and ceases to exist. Then all that exists is the unending awareness of that Non-Dual IT. That is immortality. The cessation of the mind (called Manonasha or Mind-destruction) happens suddenly, though the process to get there is gradual.

[SeekerOfHealing]

The non dual awareness is already there that's why enlightenment can be attain here and now or in instant, the thing is only small percent of people will have perception like that see it instantly when pointed out.

[Marblehead]

Wells has a point.  The thread title is "Sudden Enlightenment" in Daoism.

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[Marblehead]

In case you missed it, my comment was dripping with sarcasm.

 

But people always take you seriously.  You don't bullshit enough.

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[dwai]

 Or, the more I bullshit, the more seriously they take me.

 

You are a perfectionist, it would seem

Even you sarcasm is perfect..and gets mistaken for seriousness. I have that effect sometimes, but only in direct interactions

[damdao]

You think that natural mummification is evidence that Ming replenishment took place?

That is an interesting thought, may I ask you how replenished Ming transforms the body so the body does not rot away after death?

And isn't the soul taking the Ming with it when it leaves the body?

 

Well, not all mummifications of course. That of the japanese monks in which they prepare themselves during a couple of years is not the same.

Of course, it is impossible for me to say if this mummy is a product of ming practice and the other one of another practice. Is a theoretical explanation.

 

 

5. Heaven immortal – Tian Xian ( 天仙 )

Let me remind you that even the previous stage can be stretched on endlessly. But the immortal spirit still has not- transformed body. Therefore there remains the possibility of realization of the highest stage which is possible on Earth according to alchemy - the transformation of this body in the body of light. This is the most difficult task because it requires about 9 -10 years of immobility. It should be provided either by faithful pupils and adherents, The Teacher, or by concealment by having immured in a cave according to certain rules. After its implementation the body and the spirit merge together in the "body" of light and when the achiever leaves the world nothing is left (except for remaining things as in case of with Bodhidharma’s shoe). If due to some reasons the practitioner does not reach the highest stage, he may either himself at his will or under certain circumstances "get rid of the corpse." Depending of the achieved level his left body may not be susceptible to decay but self-mummify or even burn from the inner fire.

http://www.all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html

 

But you already know that.

 

About the process... is described in stages in different books, with its corresponding signs. It is related to the different kind of elixirs, differents water wheels and immortality levels.

 

With soul I assume you mean the yangshen. I supoose that even if the yangshen goes away (it cannot take with it ming because there is no more ming) what is left is a alchemically transformed (regenerated) body, that is alchemy after all.

[damdao]

 Or, the more I bullshit, the more seriously they take me.

 

Perhaps you embody the crazy wisdom.

[damdao]

 

With soul I assume you mean the yangshen. I supoose that even if the yangshen goes away (it cannot take with it ming because there is no more ming) what is left is a alchemically transformed (regenerated) body, that is alchemy after all.

 

 

I was thinking about what Patañjali said in the third chapter of the sutras:

 

 

रूपलावण्यबलवज्रसंहननत्वानि कायसंपत् ॥४६॥

rūpa-lāvaṇya-bala-vajra-saṁhananatvāni kāyasaṁpat ॥46॥

 

The perfection of the body includes beauty, gracefulness, strength, and adamantine hardness. ||46||

https://www.ashtangayoga.info/philosophy/yoga-sutra/chapter-3/item/ruupa-laava-bala-vajra-mhananatvaani-kaayasa/

 

It refers to the perfection of the body attained by means of bhutashuddhi and other sadhanas. Adamantine hardness is intepreted as tha capability to ramain indestructible and unaffected by external agents.

Of course this is not daoism, but it has some relation.

[Taoist Texts]

This is a chuckle-worthy thread.

For a 'teacher' not to know that sudden enlightenment is not an only  buddhist term but is as alchemical as can get, to publicly express doubts about it being relevant to neidan, and not even  know how it is spelled in chinese, - is mildly amusing.

 

The sudden enlightenment is 頓悟 dùnwù.

 

The entire southern school hinges on the notion of 頓悟 dùnwù:

 

Zhang Boduan ... employs idea of Sudden Enlightenment ( 頓悟圓通 Dunwu Yuantong ) to define the Reversion to Emptiness of Inner Alchemy ( 內丹還虛 Neidan Huanxu ).

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Bai_Yuchan

 

Moreover it is one of the commonest terms in the whole neidan:

 

...accounts of alchemical masters causing their disciples to attain sudden enlightenment, which is described in explicitly Chan language. For this study, I searched for a set of keywords: a couple of relatively common keywords (dunwu 頓悟 and jianxing 見性)...

/“The Statistical Study of Neidan Literature” . Clarke Hudson, Dept. of Religious Studies, University of Virginia/

 

heh)

[Marblehead]

Well, I understand the word "sudden" but I'm still working on the word "enlightenment".

 

Maybe one day I'll get it.

[Sudhamma]

@Damdao, metaphorically there are "many layers" as you said, perhaps in one's mind, that needs to be stripped away to expose the 'original self'. The 'who am I?' question or the 'who is chanting the Buddha's name?' are C'han instruments to trigger a different mental wave-length leading to Enlightenment perhaps in one's life-time. The whys rebirth takes place is very much covered within the Buddha-Dhamma on Dependent Origination. Therefore, to gain enlightenment, the process of Dependent Origination has to be interrupted. Stopping weighty karmas by earning good karmas with the practise of perfections (paramittas) are important to all Buddhists. Thus, quite right that someone had pointed out that there is a 'gradual' process leading up to the right moment for the aspirant to gain Enlightenment, and the Buddha or Ananda are the perfect examples in this case. On the other hand, after reading these many posts on this thread, I feel that there is a divide between what a Buddhist understands what Enlightenment is about, (of course within the context of Buddhism) with what a Daoist will mean with Enlightenment, sudden or otherwise.

[damdao]

"Sudden enlightenment" is a later buddhist term. 

 

(...)

 

 

(...)

 

...accounts of alchemical masters causing their disciples to attain sudden enlightenment, which is described in explicitly Chan language. For this study, I searched for a set of keywords: a couple of relatively common keywords (dunwu 頓悟 and jianxing 見性)...

/“The Statistical Study of Neidan Literature” . Clarke Hudson, Dept. of Religious Studies, University of Virginia/

 

 

Thanks Taoist Texts!

The quotations show that they agree, it is indeed a later (a chan term and not jingtu, tientai, huayan o theravada) buddhist term.

Edited January 13, 2017 by damdao

[Taoist Texts]

 it is indeed a later (a chan term and not jingtu, tientai, huayan o theravada) buddhist term.

This is an interesting but a tangential to the OP question. To claim that, you need first to define the term as separate from the concept, then decide if 500 CE is later or not so much

 

The distinction between sudden and gradual awakening was first introduced in China in the beginning of the 5th century CE by Tao Sheng.^[28]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subitism#Early_Buddhism

 

then to do research demonstrating that the same term is not used by those other schools.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[damdao]

(...)

 

The distinction between sudden and gradual awakening was first introduced in China in the beginning of the 5th century CE by Tao Sheng.^[28]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subitism#Early_Buddhism

 

(...)

 

Introduction of aconcept is not the same as its spreading or even its popularization. So, providing a link with a statement about the introduction does not show if the concept was widespread or not. 

Besides, you sould demonstrate if the presence of that concept excludes or not another and their hierarchical relation. You can find sudden awaken in two traditions but with different level of importance.

And, we must define from where Daoism adopted this term, from Daosehng or from Chan?

the quote you provided is clear:

 

 

 

 ...accounts of alchemical masters causing their disciples to attain sudden enlightenment, which is described in explicitly Chan language. For this study, I searched for a set of keywords: a couple of relatively common keywords (dunwu 頓悟 and jianxing 見性)...

/“The Statistical Study of Neidan Literature” . Clarke Hudson, Dept. of Religious Studies, University of Virginia/

 

Are you trying to say that chan is not a later form of buddhism? Or is not later in relation to daoism (earlier than daoism perhaps?!)?

Besides, self-identification is important (not only introduction):

 

But such a stance is itself the result of a long and complex historical evolution, one in which Zen came to define itself as the Sudden Teaching in contrast to the other more textually oriented traditions within Chinese Buddhism-a teaching, that is, that dispensed with the usual compro­mises suited to the less spiritually adept in order to grasp the ultimate directly. Zen claims to represent a special mind-to-mind transmission outside of the textual tradition, a transmission that ultimately traces back to the enlightenment experience of the historical Buddha. Zen's stance is thus related to its emergence as a distinct tradition within the sectarian arena of Chinese Buddhism. As the chapters by Bernard Faure and Carl Bielefeldt well demonstrate, Zen's public attitude toward medi­tation is deeply colored by its own sectarian claims and the kind of rhe­ torical posture they entailed.

 

Traditions of Meditation in Chinese Buddhism, Peter Gregory, p.2

Edited January 14, 2017 by damdao