"Sudden enlightenment" in daoism

[Taoist Texts]

 Are you trying to say that chan is not a later form of buddhism?  

 

I was not, but since you mention it, Chan is actually the oldest:

 

The Flower Sermon is a story of the origin of Zen Buddhism in which Śākyamuni Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) transmits direct prajñā (wisdom) to the disciple Mahākāśyapa. In the original Sino-Japanese, the story is NengemishōNiān huá wéixiào (拈華微笑, literally "Pick up flower, subtle smile").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon

[dawei]

This is an interesting but a tangential to the OP question. To claim that, you need first to define the term as separate from the concept, then decide if 500 CE is later or not so much

 

What likely interests me more is not whether the distinction of sudden vs gradual is in daoism.... but simply was either or both inherent to the practice without need for a specific or singular word.

 

I've long felt that while practices are long-term, there is a suddenness that comes about at some point.  A pop or poof... and one can claim the long term created the foundation it may also be that our karmic past contributed too... so I'm not going to argue against a buildup to the moment.  

 

But it is my opinion that most all practices are limited by their own limitations and it is when something outside of the practice steps in, then the suddenness is more likely to happen.   Meaning: look at ancient ways and most all of those who have something happen has it via a spirit or deity... not their master or practice.   In this sense, many practices which lays the foundation and path is actually a dead-end, on its own.

[Taoist Texts]

What likely interests me more is not whether the distinction of sudden vs gradual is in daoism.... but simply was either or both inherent to the practice without need for a specific or singular word.

Huineng says they are one and the same

 

Chapter VIII. The Sudden School and the Gradual School

While there is only one Dharma, some disciples realize it more quickly than others. The reason why the names 'Sudden' and 'Gradual' are given is that some disciples are superior to others in mental dispositions.

So far as the Dharma is concerned, the distinction of 'Sudden' and 'Gradual' does not exist." 

 

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/hui_neng8.html

 

I've long felt that while practices are long-term, there is a suddenness that comes about at some point.  A pop or poof.

 

Of course, how can it be otherwise? Either  you are fully awake, or you are not.

[awaken]

Huineng says they are one and the same

Chapter VIII. The Sudden School and the Gradual School

While there is only one Dharma, some disciples realize it more quickly than others. The reason why the names 'Sudden' and 'Gradual' are given is that some disciples are superior to others in mental dispositions.

So far as the Dharma is concerned, the distinction of 'Sudden' and 'Gradual' does not exist."

 

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/hui_neng8.html

Of course, how can it be otherwise? Either you are fully awake, or you are not.

Agree completely

 

Someone enlightenment very quickly.

 

Someone slowly

 

Someone enlightenment without any teaching.

 

Someone can't enlightenment all his life and always go the wrong direction even if how hard he learned or guess.

 

It is so different in the situation of enlightenment for everyone.

[Marblehead]

Nice to see that we are still talking about Buddhist "enlightenment".

[awaken]

Nice to see that we are still talking about Buddhist "enlightenment".

So you think "enlightenment" is a Buddhism word?

 

I think "enlightenment" is obviously an English word.

 

悟，is a Chinese word.

 

The word 悟 is earlier than Buddhism .

 

Before Buddha was born, 悟 is already there.

 

Nei Jin, was written before Buddha was born.

 

We can see 悟 was mentioned in nei Jin.

 

Nei Jin is not a pure Chinese medicine book.

 

It include dan dao.

 

In old Chinese tradiction, many things is the same thing, the same core.

 

Medicine, yi Jin, dao.....

 

 

So we can see 悟 in nei Jin.

 

Another book, 說文解字，Shuowen Jiezi，also was written earlier then buddism classics.

 

It mentions about 悟

 

 

 

The concept of 悟 is used a lot in buddism.

 

The speed of 悟 was discussed in buddism, too.

 

I think it doesn't mean 悟 is only used by buddism.

 

This word was created in very ancient china.

 

When buddism was spread to China, the translator used 悟 to translate the concept.

 

It doesn't mean the ancient dao doesnt have the concept.

 

 

 

 

 

Let see the word 悟 in ancient shape.

 

There are two "五" above the "心"

 

五 five

心 heart

 

(五,会意。从二,从乂。“二”代表天地,“乂”表示互相交错。本义:交午,纵横交错) 同本义 [cross]

五,阴阳在天地之间交午也。——《说文》

 

 

五 was created by its meaning

 

It was formed by two parts

 

二 乂

 

二 means 天 sky 地 earth

乂 means crossed

 

五 means Ying Yang are crossed between sky and earth.

 

And there are two 五 above 心

 

There are two layers of Ying Yang crossed above the heart

 

This is the word 悟 created

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Daoism don't separate Buddhism brom Daoism.

 

Daoism mix buddism into Daoism.

 

We can see the situation in a famous novel, the journey to the west, 西遊記。

Edited January 15, 2017 by awaken

[Marblehead]

Hi Awaken,

 

First I must say that I am disadvantaged as I do not read Chinese.  I must therefore base my understandings on what others have translated into English.

 

Yes, "enlightenment" is an English word.

 

No where in the Dao De Jing or The Chuang Tzu have I seen the English word "enlightenment" used.  But there is much said about "awareness".

 

I do understand that when Daoism became a recognized religion in China there was a lot of Buddhism included in the Daoist doctrines.  This is one of the reasons I do not hold to Religious Daoism.

 

And I doubt that "enlightenment" was actually a term that the Buddha used but that it was included later by his followers.

 

 

But really. I still have not seen a definition of "enlightenment" that I think is valid.  It is just an empty word to me.  "Awareness", on the other hand, is a word I often use when speaking to the concept of "being aware of the processes in nature".

[awaken]

I hope I can contribute the other informations that you can't get from translation texts.

 

Shuowen Jiezi said 悟，覺也

 

It means

 

Enlightenment is awareness

 

I know in English

 

Enlightenment and awareness is different

 

But in ancient china

 

We can see from Shuowen Jiezi

 

Enlightenment is awareness

 

So Chinese use 覺悟 enlightenment and awareness as a phrase.

 

Nei Jin said heart open eyes bright 心開目明 is 悟 enlightenment

 

So you can see 開悟

 

The word 開 means 心開 heart open

 

 

In 莊子，we also can see 其寢不夢

 

When he sleep, he doesn't dream

 

Sleeping without dreams is the biggest characteristic of opening heart.

 

 

We can see 覺悟 enlightenment and awareness the phrase was used before Buddhism came to China.

 

荀子．成相：「不覺悟，不知苦。」

 

Xun Kuang

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xun_Kuang

 

If we don't enlightenment and awareness, we don't know what is pain.

Edited January 15, 2017 by awaken

[Marblehead]

So you are suggesting that in Chinese culture the two words have very similar meaning, right?

 

I have always associated enlightenment with Buddhism.  Therefore I avoid the word.  Being aware is much easier to understand.

[Sudhamma]

Quite right, Marblehead, the word Buddha means The Awakened One, the word 'enlightened' though seemed to be the popular term to describe the attainment.  Whether Buddha-hood is the potential to be awakened or enlightened, the question, I suppose where the difference lies with Daoism, is wakened or enlightened from what. In Daoism, there is a primodial spirit, yuan-shen, then there is a 'san wen' roughly meaning three souls, and qi-pa, seven sensations(?), all these forming a single soul. The daoists in this cirlce should be able to correct my gross misconception in this. On the other hand, in Buddhism there is no soul, no spirit, just a consciousness, perhaps as some will say, it is merely semantics. 

[[email protected]]

May be in in this context the author meant sudden UNDERSTANDING of the nature of one's mind or essence?

Rgrds, Ilya

[damdao]

Quite right, Marblehead, the word Buddha means The Awakened One, the word 'enlightened' though seemed to be the popular term to describe the attainment.  (...)

 

This is an important point.

Two links in English:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/悟

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/覺

This is a side-way regarding the OP.

It would be very interesting to research Jianxing 見性 and its relation with neidan and buddhism.

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Courious, confused, misunderstand, etc

 

I saw a better guess, 見性, Jian-xin

 

Very nice (just a tiny correction - the second is spelled as xing, not xin). It is a buddhist term meaning "understand your original nature, become buddha".

 

Have you found this being translated as "enlightenment" in some dictionary?

Have you seen a Daoist alchemy text describing this happening suddenly, without passing traditional stages?

 

yuan qi is very easy to regenerate. what's the deal? in stillness yuan qi regenerate, when breath becomes subtle is breathing yuanqi etc.

 

How do you notice that your yuanqi is being regenerated? How do you distinguish it from ordinary qi? Where is it located? How much of it do you have remaining?

 

Damo Mitchell's White Moon on the Mountain Peak has a chapter on the stages of immortality which has given me some perspective on this.

 

 

 

 

 

A couple of pages earlier....

 

 

 

 

 

 

The perspective given here would appear to indeed agree that certain Xing only practices can land one in a trap, but it also makes more clear the nature of the rainbow body often associated with Tibetan Buddhism.

 

Thank you for this point of view. It has common points with Yuxianpai and Wuliupai doctrines, but also has differences: usually in Daoism Xing must unite with Ming, so there is no Xing and Ming anymore. It happens on Dixian (Earthly immortal) stage. 

 

To not confuse the matter further, in the Vedantic tradition of Hindu dharma, enlightenment is sudden. It is explained as such - practice/sadhana is like tending to and watering a fruit tree. Enlightenment is like the ripening of a fruit. When the fruit is ripe and ready, it will "suddenly" break free from the tree and fall to the ground.

 

In terms of meditation and jnana (spiritual knowledge), all the studying and contemplation, supported by a proper mediation practice is preparatory. When the individual is ready, realization is sudden and complete. The knowledge and contemplation helps the mind understand and "fall in line" when the practice occurs. Eventually, the mind falls into the source of everything (we call it the True Self, Atman or Brahman, Daoists call it Dao) and ceases to exist. Then all that exists is the unending awareness of that Non-Dual IT. That is immortality. The cessation of the mind (called Manonasha or Mind-destruction) happens suddenly, though the process to get there is gradual.

 

Thank you for this comparison with Vedantic tradition. Are there also some stages which need to be passed gradually as in Daoist Alchemy or a single practice which a person must be doing?

 

This is a chuckle-worthy thread.

For a 'teacher' not to know that sudden enlightenment is not an only  buddhist term but is as alchemical as can get, to publicly express doubts about it being relevant to neidan, and not even  know how it is spelled in chinese, - is mildly amusing.

 

The sudden enlightenment is 頓悟 dùnwù.

 

The entire southern school hinges on the notion of 頓悟 dùnwù:

 

Zhang Boduan ... employs idea of Sudden Enlightenment ( 頓悟圓通 Dunwu Yuantong ) to define the Reversion to Emptiness of Inner Alchemy ( 內丹還虛 Neidan Huanxu ).

 

You just repeat the mistakes of this noneame author. 頓悟 is sudden understanding (awakening).

Here is a qoute helping you to 悟 what "悟" means.

 

悟 wù

（了解; 领会; 觉醒） understand; wake up; realize; awaken:

醒悟 come to realize the truth or one's error

执迷不悟 refuse to come to one's senses

翻然悔悟 quickly wake up to one's error

 

And another author's mistake you are probably not aware of: Zhang Boduan's text is not about 頓悟 at all, it is about Inner Alchemy process.

 

It seems there is only one usage of "頓悟" in the entire Zhang Boduan text. It is in the preface, when he compares Daoism and Buddhism:

 

"Shakyamuni followers (i.e. buddhists) as the most important regard emptyness and calmness which come after the 頓悟...

(While) Laozi followers (i.e. daoists) regard as a true method transmutating (i.e. cultivating Ming) and cultivating original Xing..."

 

I usually advice my students not to rely on noname (and even named) Western articles in the internet but always do research and investigate themselves.

 

...accounts of alchemical masters causing their disciples to attain sudden enlightenment, which is described in explicitly Chan language. For this study, I searched for a set of keywords: a couple of relatively common keywords (dunwu 頓悟 and jianxing 見性)...

/“The Statistical Study of Neidan Literature” . Clarke Hudson, Dept. of Religious Studies, University of Virginia/

 

The same mistake. 悟 wù is not enlightenment. And 見性 is a buddhist term. 

BTW, probably you are able to point us to some exact places in Daoist texts describing "alchemical masters causing their disciples to attain sudden enlightenment"?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

I was not, but since you mention it, Chan is actually the oldest:

 

The Flower Sermon is a story of the origin of Zen Buddhism in which Śākyamuni Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) transmits direct prajñā (wisdom) to the disciple Mahākāśyapa. In the original Sino-Japanese, the story is NengemishōNiān huá wéixiào[/size] (拈華微笑, literally "Pick up flower, subtle smile").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon

 

"The story of the Flower Sermon appears to have been created by Chinese Chán Buddhists.[3] The earliest known version of the tale appeared in 1036.[3]"

 

Basing on tales a one will probably become a good storyteller 

 

Huineng says they are one and the same

 

Chapter VIII. The Sudden School and the Gradual School

While there is only one Dharma, some disciples realize it more quickly than others. The reason why the names 'Sudden' and 'Gradual' are given is that some disciples are superior to others in mental dispositions.[/size]

 

So far as the Dharma is concerned, the distinction of 'Sudden' and 'Gradual' does not exist." [/size]

 

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/hui_neng8.html

Of course, how can it be otherwise? Either  you are fully awake, or you are not.

It is Chan buddhism text. I believe trying to find the role and true meaning of "Sudden enlightenment" in Daoism we must base on something more Daoist and more authoritative than Chan Buddhist texts, English articles and tales.

 

So you think "enlightenment" is a Buddhism word?

I think "enlightenment" is obviously an English word.

悟，is a Chinese word.

The word 悟 is earlier than Buddhism .

Before Buddha was born, 悟 is already there.

 

Right, it is a Chinese word. With meaning understand, awake.

 

"Etymology: 悟, From heart 忄心 and phonetic 吾. Meaning to realize (understand)."

 

Chinese Daoism don't separate Buddhism brom Daoism.

 

Quite funny claim https://www.google.ru/search?q=taoism+and+buddhism+conflicts

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited January 16, 2017 by A.A.Khokhlov

[SeekerOfHealing]

Before I will answer that question about yuan qi I want to ask you question. Do you really believe/think the Wu Liu Pai methods you will become immortal in this body? Even Dimitri said that ming is not about physical immortality but childlike feeling. 

 

 

I use method for yuan qi by following yin and yang. Gathering and condensing. There is a certain time to gather primordial Qi and transfer it into yuan qi. Your site all-dao.com said it's easy to do. 

 

But I will not lie. I'm not master of ming or I would say very beginner. 

 

At the first stage of ming I was sweating out and spontaneously move. After sometime my diseases went gone. 

 

Another stage is that when I was doing ming gong I saw flicking lights when I had closed eyes and entered deep stillness and emptiness which got nothing to do with trying to stop my mind or anything like.

 

After that I found very good connection to the nature which makes me child-like happy just to play with simple things like snow, water, watching fire makes me exciting as I would be winning milion dollar lottery but at the same peaceful and still.

 

How would you judge it? 

Edited January 16, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[A.A.Khokhlov]

I hope I can contribute the other informations that you can't get from translation texts.

Shuowen Jiezi said 悟，覺也

It means

Enlightenment is awareness

I know in English

Enlightenment and awareness is different

But in ancient china

We can see from Shuowen Jiezi

Enlightenment is awareness

 

Thank you, it points us to quite an interesting direction. Lets continue your research. 

 

So ancient Shuowen Jiezi dictionary says about  悟 wu:       "悟，覺也". 

And here is what Shuowen Jiezi says about about 覺 itself:        "覺，寤也"

 

 

And this 寤 means - realize (understand), awake from sleep, awaken (hillarious, is it not? ).

It can not be translated as "awareness".

 

We can see 覺悟 enlightenment and awareness the phrase was used before Buddhism came to China.

荀子．成相：「不覺悟，不知苦。」

Xun Kuang

 

Thank you for some part of Confucianist wisdom. But we are actually speaking about "Sudden Enlightenment" in Daoism, not about "awareness" in Confucianism.

 

If we don't enlightenment and awareness, we don't know what is pain. 

 

Just curious: is "become aware and enlightened to know what the pain is" a final stage in your school? 

 

While people are usually starting to practice in our online groups to get rid of pain and avoid it in future... (they generally are able to successfully attain this).

 

Quite right, Marblehead, the word Buddha means The Awakened One, the word 'enlightened' though seemed to be the popular term to describe the attainment.  Whether Buddha-hood is the potential to be awakened or enlightened, the question, I suppose where the difference lies with Daoism, is wakened or enlightened from what. In Daoism, there is a primodial spirit, yuan-shen, then there is a 'san wen' roughly meaning three souls, and qi-pa, seven sensations(?), all these forming a single soul. The daoists in this cirlce should be able to correct my gross misconception in this. On the other hand, in Buddhism there is no soul, no spirit, just a consciousness, perhaps as some will say, it is merely semantics.

 

Agree. So far we haven't seen any references to Daoist "sudden enlightenment". Lets see, probably someone will manage to finally find it.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Before I will answer that question about yuan qi I want to ask you question. Do you really believe/think the Wu Liu Pai methods you will become immortal in this body? Even Dimitri said that ming is not about physical immortality but childlike feeling. 

 

To not get far away from the original topic, please see my suggestion in PM.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[Daeluin]

So far we haven't seen any references to Daoist "sudden enlightenment". Lets see, probably someone will manage to finally find it.

 

I am curious about your perspective on this post. I realize the excerpt is long - I'll just post the part I made bold:

 

"The moment of death was certainly extremely painful; even when I tried to break free, I had no strength whatsoever. Had I had any strength, of course, I wouldn't have been dying.

 

This sensation, however, very soon disappeared, followed by a rapid flow of time in reverse and a corresponding transformation of space. Everything I ever experienced, whether I had remembered it or not, now appeared before me. Finally someone came and led me to a completely unfamiliar place, with very beautiful scenery, where I met deceased relatives. In three days of terrestrial time, I spent several decades there. After reviving, I clearly remembered the things I learned there. I had never seen the old folks there before, but when I described them to my parents, they confirmed their identities. My father and mother were also amazed, because that showed I had actually seen those people and wasn't making it up."

 

I am not well versed in Buddhist understanding. What I have read indicates that awakening achieves a permanent transcendence from attachment to suffering. After awakening one is no longer moved by emotions and desires.

 

There appear to be associations with this experience to a transcendence of time and space, where all the moments of one's life may flash before one's eyes. This is why the quoted experience of Wang Liping seems relevant to me here.

 

Among the eight extraordinary vessels, we have the wei vessels (linking vessels). These are associated with one's posturing within time and space. Particularly the yin wei vessel, which is linked to how we hold our memory-attachments throughout our lives - it finances our journey through time, allowing us to imprint experiences that make up part of our identity. This understanding comes largely from Peter Shea's book Alchemy of the Extraordinary, and from the lineages held by Jeffrey Yuen.

 

Through dissolving our identity we are perhaps able to transcend that which holds us into attachment to the events within space and time. From a daoist perspective this seems related to transcending the polarity of life and death, although I am not sure which of the 'conventional' stages of neidan this is associated with. As a wild guess I might wonder if this is related to "mercury and lead seizing one another", as for this to happen it is logical that one has been able to dissolve what which comes between: one's bonds and attachments within time and space - the memories one clings to and ambitions one projects onto the world. Or perhaps a prerequisite for this stage. Another guess might be related to the 7 returns - my intuition feels there is something there, though I am not sure why.

[Bindi]

“superior virtue (shangde) takes no action, and does not employ examining or seeking; inferior virtue (xiade) takes action, and its operation is unceasing.” - Laozi 38, the Cantong qi

 

In several works belonging to his extensive literary corpus, the Daoist master Liu Yiming 劉一明 (1734–1821) discusses two aspects of Neidan 內丹, or Internal Alchemy, respectively called shangde 上德 (“superior  virtue”) and  xiade下德 (“inferior virtue”). According to Liu, superior virtue focuses on the cultivation of xing 性, or inner nature, while inferior virtue focuses on the cultivation of ming命, a term that in its broadest sense denotes one’s embodiment and the destiny, or “mandate,” assigned by Heaven to one’s existence. Although these two aspects, or degrees, of Neidan are addressed to and accessible by different types of adepts, Liu Yiming emphasizes that, if the path of inferior virtue is fully achieved, it leads to the same state of realization as the path of superior virtue.

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/271695641/Fabrizio-PREGADIO-Liu-Yiming-Superior-Virtue-Inferior-Virtue

 

 

Is Liu Yiming then claiming immediate realisation in neidan is possible if someone has superior virtue?

[Bindi]

I am curious about your perspective on this post. I realize the excerpt is long - I'll just post the part I made bold:

 

"The moment of death was certainly extremely painful; even when I tried to break free, I had no strength whatsoever. Had I had any strength, of course, I wouldn't have been dying.

 

This sensation, however, very soon disappeared, followed by a rapid flow of time in reverse and a corresponding transformation of space. Everything I ever experienced, whether I had remembered it or not, now appeared before me. Finally someone came and led me to a completely unfamiliar place, with very beautiful scenery, where I met deceased relatives. In three days of terrestrial time, I spent several decades there. After reviving, I clearly remembered the things I learned there. I had never seen the old folks there before, but when I described them to my parents, they confirmed their identities. My father and mother were also amazed, because that showed I had actually seen those people and wasn't making it up."

 

I am not well versed in Buddhist understanding. What I have read indicates that awakening achieves a permanent transcendence from attachment to suffering. After awakening one is no longer moved by emotions and desires.

 

There appear to be associations with this experience to a transcendence of time and space, where all the moments of one's life may flash before one's eyes. This is why the quoted experience of Wang Liping seems relevant to me here.

 

Among the eight extraordinary vessels, we have the wei vessels (linking vessels). These are associated with one's posturing within time and space. Particularly the yin wei vessel, which is linked to how we hold our memory-attachments throughout our lives - it finances our journey through time, allowing us to imprint experiences that make up part of our identity. This understanding comes largely from Peter Shea's book Alchemy of the Extraordinary, and from the lineages held by Jeffrey Yuen.

 

Through dissolving our identity we are perhaps able to transcend that which holds us into attachment to the events within space and time. From a daoist perspective this seems related to transcending the polarity of life and death, although I am not sure which of the 'conventional' stages of neidan this is associated with. As a wild guess I might wonder if this is related to "mercury and lead seizing one another", as for this to happen it is logical that one has been able to dissolve what which comes between: one's bonds and attachments within time and space - the memories one clings to and ambitions one projects onto the world. Or perhaps a prerequisite for this stage. Another guess might be related to the 7 returns - my intuition feels there is something there, though I am not sure why.

 

This was a very interesting passage that you posted, to me it was a carefully controlled NDE, and if this was the norm at one stage then the resulting state would be a very good basis for further internal cultivation from what I have read of NDE's. From what I can gather this practice of controlled NDE stopped because too many people died attempting it, but the knowledge that would be gained in a successful NDE would be hard to replace with neidan only techniques.

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

Is Liu Yiming then claiming immediate realisation in neidan is possible if someone has superior virtue?

 

Yes, thats exactly what he does.

 

答曰：此言顿悟之后而渐修也。盖人秉气有清浊，性根有利钝。秉气清而性根利者，一遇师诀，顿悟圆通，即认得未生以前面目。 

 

Answer: that refers to the sudden realization and the gradual practice following it. For people differ according to the purity of the innate qi, and according to the sharpness of their inborn nature (Xing). If their innate qi is pure and the inborn nature is sharp, upon obtaining the secrets from a teacher, they experience a sudden and complete realization, that is, recognize ‘their face before being born’.

 

Another example of sudden  enlightenment in taoism:

 

... Zhao Ming Wang not only teaches gradual and sudden Qianfeng enlightenment,...

http://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/charles-luk-and-qianfeng-daoism.html

Edited January 17, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Daeluin]

This was a very interesting passage that you posted, to me it was a carefully controlled NDE, and if this was the norm at one stage then the resulting state would be a very good basis for further internal cultivation from what I have read of NDE's. From what I can gather this practice of controlled NDE stopped because too many people died attempting it, but the knowledge that would be gained in a successful NDE would be hard to replace with neidan only techniques.

 

What I'm still uncertain about is if this type of transcendence-of-ego-through-NearDeathExperience is synonymous with  "enlightenment" or "awakening." When I google about death and enlightenment I come across a couple articles which might support the theory... Osho is reported to have said that the majority of people who become enlightened do not survive it and die, linking it to an NDE, though for obvious reasons Osho might not be a dependable source. But I have trouble finding much that lets me draw a conclusion, as most of what I read is so varied. It also seems possible the term 'sudden enlightenment' may have originally meant one thing and that meaning has changed with the times.

 

But yes, I pretty much agree with everything you say. With the ego slain permanently, any desire based issues would no longer interfere with subsequent training.

 

A.A.Khokhlov seems to be saying there is something to find - a type of specifically daoist sudden enlightenment. I'm not sure if he is referring to a stage within neidan where the cultivator experiences the same thing as in buddhist sudden enlightenment, OR a type of sudden enlightenment that is different and specific to daoist practices.

 

This reminds me of something I read in a partial english translation of the xing ming gui zhi by Daniel Burton Rose:

 

For in regard to the Three Passes: those who from doing enter non-doing [practice] the gradual method; those who cultivate the Upper Pass concurrently with the lower two passes [practice] the sudden method. As for those who directly refine the spirit and return to the Void, at the critical moment when the Work arrives at the Void, the extremity of quiescence, essence transforms into qi of itself, qi transforms into spirit of itself, meaning Gatemaster Yin’s principles on forgetting essence and spirit and transcending life.

 

To me there is great value in this passage simply for the knowledge how different schools may utilize vastly different methods to attain the elixir. This perhaps references, say, the differences between Wu Liu Pai and Xiao Yao Pai.

[Daeluin]

 

“superior virtue (shangde) takes no action, and does not employ examining or seeking; inferior virtue (xiade) takes action, and its operation is unceasing.” - Laozi 38, the Cantong qi

 

In several works belonging to his extensive literary corpus, the Daoist master Liu Yiming 劉一明 (1734–1821) discusses two aspects of Neidan 內丹, or Internal Alchemy, respectively called shangde 上德 (“superior  virtue”) and  xiade下德 (“inferior virtue”). According to Liu, superior virtue focuses on the cultivation of xing 性, or inner nature, while inferior virtue focuses on the cultivation of ming命, a term that in its broadest sense denotes one’s embodiment and the destiny, or “mandate,” assigned by Heaven to one’s existence. Although these two aspects, or degrees, of Neidan are addressed to and accessible by different types of adepts, Liu Yiming emphasizes that, if the path of inferior virtue is fully achieved, it leads to the same state of realization as the path of superior virtue.

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/271695641/Fabrizio-PREGADIO-Liu-Yiming-Superior-Virtue-Inferior-Virtue

 

 

Is Liu Yiming then claiming immediate realisation in neidan is possible if someone has superior virtue?

 

 

In case you haven't read it, the chapter where Liu Yiming discusses the above in detail in his work xiuzhen houbian is published free-to-read here.

[Bindi]

What I'm still uncertain about is if this type of transcendence-of-ego-through-NearDeathExperience is synonymous with  "enlightenment" or "awakening." When I google about death and enlightenment I come across a couple articles which might support the theory... Osho is reported to have said that the majority of people who become enlightened do not survive it and die, linking it to an NDE, though for obvious reasons Osho might not be a dependable source. But I have trouble finding much that lets me draw a conclusion, as most of what I read is so varied. It also seems possible the term 'sudden enlightenment' may have originally meant one thing and that meaning has changed with the times.

 

But yes, I pretty much agree with everything you say. With the ego slain permanently, any desire based issues would no longer interfere with subsequent training.

 

A.A.Khokhlov seems to be saying there is something to find - a type of specifically daoist sudden enlightenment. I'm not sure if he is referring to a stage within neidan where the cultivator experiences the same thing as in buddhist sudden enlightenment, OR a type of sudden enlightenment that is different and specific to daoist practices.

 

This reminds me of something I read in a partial english translation of the xing ming gui zhi by Daniel Burton Rose:

 

For in regard to the Three Passes: those who from doing enter non-doing [practice] the gradual method; those who cultivate the Upper Pass concurrently with the lower two passes [practice] the sudden method. As for those who directly refine the spirit and return to the Void, at the critical moment when the Work arrives at the Void, the extremity of quiescence, essence transforms into qi of itself, qi transforms into spirit of itself, meaning Gatemaster Yin’s principles on forgetting essence and spirit and transcending life.

 

To me there is great value in this passage simply for the knowledge how different schools may utilize vastly different methods to attain the elixir. This perhaps references, say, the differences between Wu Liu Pai and Xiao Yao Pai.

 

The most general idea I get from reading people's descriptions of their post-NDE perspective is of a realisation that they are not the small self or the ego self, but I don't think it is generally associated with enlightenment. Just a massive shift of focus, and often a newfound passion to engage in 'spiritual' or compassionate pursuits. 

 

Just hypothetically, NDE's could be fairly safely manufactured with current medical knowledge, but there might be some moral outcry or dissension - I know this idea of medically induced NDE's was explored in a 1990 movie called 'Flatliners' which I found somewhat interesting at the time as a concept.

 

If any of this relates to sudden enlightenment in neidan/daoism I have no idea

 

edit: I would be interested in reading something from Wang Liping after his death experience if you could point me in the right direction.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Bindi

[awaken]

Very nice (just a tiny correction - the second is spelled as xing, not xin). It is a buddhist term meaning "understand your original nature, become buddha".

 

Have you found this being translated as "enlightenment" in some dictionary?

Have you seen a Daoist alchemy text describing this happening suddenly, without passing traditional stages?

 

 

 

How do you notice that your yuanqi is being regenerated? How do you distinguish it from ordinary qi? Where is it located? How much of it do you have remaining?

 

 

 

Thank you for this point of view. It has common points with Yuxianpai and Wuliupai doctrines, but also has differences: usually in Daoism Xing must unite with Ming, so there is no Xing and Ming anymore. It happens on Dixian (Earthly immortal) stage. 

 

 

 

Thank you for this comparison with Vedantic tradition. Are there also some stages which need to be passed gradually as in Daoist Alchemy or a single practice which a person must be doing?

 

 

 

You just repeat the mistakes of this noneame author. 頓悟 is sudden understanding (awakening).

Here is a qoute helping you to 悟 what "悟" means.

 

悟 wù

（了解; 领会; 觉醒） understand; wake up; realize; awaken:

醒悟 come to realize the truth or one's error

执迷不悟 refuse to come to one's senses

翻然悔悟 quickly wake up to one's error

 

And another author's mistake you are probably not aware of: Zhang Boduan's text is not about 頓悟 at all, it is about Inner Alchemy process.

 

It seems there is only one usage of "頓悟" in the entire Zhang Boduan text. It is in the preface, when he compares Daoism and Buddhism:

 

"Shakyamuni followers (i.e. buddhists) as the most important regard emptyness and calmness which come after the 頓悟...

(While) Laozi followers (i.e. daoists) regard as a true method transmutating (i.e. cultivating Ming) and cultivating original Xing..."

 

I usually advice my students not to rely on noname (and even named) Western articles in the internet but always do research and investigate themselves.

 

 

 

The same mistake. 悟 wù is not enlightenment. And 見性 is a buddhist term. 

BTW, probably you are able to point us to some exact places in Daoist texts describing "alchemical masters causing their disciples to attain sudden enlightenment"?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Excuse me.

 

Can you tell us why your heart block so badly?

 

I hope that Someone who seems to know everything about the enlightenment or sudden enlightenment can really enlightenment.

 

Not just know the knowledges of sudden enlightenment or sudden enlightment.

 

I can receive your chi from your words.

 

I hope you can enlightment first before you teach your students what is enlightenment.

 

Sorry to say this.

 

I hope you don't get angry about me.

 

I hope you can pay more time to get enlightenment.

 

Enlightment is not a dead word.

 

It is a direction.

 

If you really enlightment you can see enlightenment in many different texts that there is no any enlightment word in it.