Do you really want it?

[Foundit]

It has many names yet it really shouldn't have one in the first place as it can become a massive distraction as most words and concepts have baggage. It's the most obvious and allusive pot of gold (or crap) there is



 

Nonetheless.





 

Do you really want enlightenment? I mean really want it. 



As in throw away all that your have achieved up to now in regard to your path and trinkets you picked up along the way (pun intended).



 


Ah yes. That should be addressed. The way, the dao. I love this stuff. When I learnt about the Way many years ago it lit something inside of me and since then i've been, erm,  lets say brainwashed, by several ways to be, how to be,  why to and what to be - not that i'm complaining, it was a fun ride.

 



So.

I have a, lets call it, (un)perspective, that differs to almost all those around me and I see people getting bogged down in stories that although are fun and entertaining, will untimely never lead to, erm,  enlightenment - unless it's seen for what it is - which might be the reason they exist in the first place. Who knows.



 

Oh yes. I'm not all knowing but I know something that can't be wavered and should (being modest here) be able to stand up to almost any line of inquiry (or attack if you're feeling feisty).



 

I'm not really sure why i'm here, I both don't care and stopped asking certain things. It is what it is.
 If it becomes unhealthy for others I'll leave - if i get bored i'll also leave.


 

And enough noise, back to the original question, do you really want enlightenment?

 

If so, whats stopping you from seeing it right now (and i mean that literally, not figuratively).

Edited January 11, 2017 by Foundit

[Marblehead]

Well, as I still have not accepted any definition of "enlightenment" I don't have any idea if I want it or not.

 

I do want awareness.  This is so that while I am on this journey to who knows where I want to be aware of all the good times I am having.

 

Yes, words carry baggage.  That is why I rarely use certain words and there are some I don't use at all.  Too many connotations.

 

My collection of trinkets?  Sure, there are some in there that I wish I had never collected but at the time it felt right to collect them.  And as they are history and can't be changed the result is I am what I am.

 

So my journey has no destination.  I am seeking no ultimate goal.  I know that one day death will grab me by my ass and there won't be anything I can do about it.  But until that day I will avoid it as well as I can.

 

If you ever get bored here it is because you stopped talking about things I enjoy talking about.

 

So enjoy your stay.

 

And don't forget to let me know what it is you found.

[Foundit]

Yes, I did avoid that question. As lame and unoriginal as it sounds - and is -  both everything and nothing [shakes head in disappointment]

I want to say Truth. With a capital T, meaning not relative truth. I might also call it the screen, wait I just did. The thing it's all happening on, the backdrop so to speak. Everything, all knowledge, others, universe, me, you are all playing on it. The ultimate screen. Contents don't matter, they change. The screen dosen't, and can't.

It's constant - not an experience
All ways here - as long as I am
Not what I thought it would be

Marblehead: (Not all directed at you just throwing up) Regarding your answer. So you're on a journey with no destination ay? Who told you that, some random you bumped into along it, yourself after repeating and hearing it over and over - Can you really trust yourself to be telling you the Truth if you don't know for sure who or what yourself is?

 

Could it be that we tell ourselves a lie to avoid the truth (i'll stop putting a caps on it). What if you're already at your destination but still looking down at a map, the fold out paper kind thats so big that it covers your whole experience.
 

What if we challenged everything though. Neti neti style. For years. Lose everything. Drop everything that we identify with and find out what remains?

 

Edit: Deleted various paragraphs. I'll attempt to be more on point

Edited January 11, 2017 by Foundit

[Foundit]

I re-read what I wrote and I digressed with descriptions. Not helpful.





 

I guess my intention wasn't so much to share what it's like but show how we ignore whats so obvious.

 

One way is to assume what it's like without ever being there. It's always best to see for yourself.
 All thats useful is what needs to be done to get there.

 

It's impossible to really describe and any description becomes another goal or marker - again not helpful.

 




On many occasions I may have saw what I had been looking for but my belief (important) that it was suppose to be like something else stopped me seeing it clearly, just as it was.

 





Throw away all your assumptions, start from the beginning and be practical and logical.  Ignore descriptions of the apparent state and do what needs to be done to get there.

 

For that reason I led with the question asking if people really wanted it.





 

No matter how long you've been seeking - would you be willing to start all over again for a chance to find out what enlightenment really is - not what you just assume it is?



 What ever you are expreincing right now is all you need to begin. Nothing else.

 

You don't attain anything, all you do is unattain ignorance and get left with what you're left with.



In many ways it completly ruins the game, once seen it cant be unseen. If it's not for you, leave seeking enlightment and play as many rides in the themepark as possible. If that invloves seeking enlightment, accept with maturity that thats just another ride you're on which will keep you going round and round but may never stop anywhere you hoped.

 

However, if you feel that pull again or the lies become unbearable i'm sure you'll know what needs to be done. It all starts with you.
 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Foundit

[Jetsun]

I thought I wanted it, but then I came to realise what I really wanted was to escape suffering using enlightenment, so it was just escapism dressed up in different clothes.... but in the process I discovered that it wants me    

 

In a sense I am not sure if us (as most of us take ourselves to be) can honestly want enlightenment, as enlightenment is the end of us and by nature we aren't suicidal, yet it could be like moths to a flame I guess

[Brian]

FWIW, my screen name when I joined the forum was "A_Seeker".

[Foundit]

Jetsun: Yep, suffering can make us stop and have a good look around. Not always a bad thing really

 

Brian: I was one too. Then I wasn't. Now, i just am. Which is very relaxing I may add. Like watching a movie with a character dangling below me that pretends to be in control and feels seperate - where in reality - thats just part of the content on the screen, and for which i'm glad is still around.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Foundit

[C T]

If anyone can completely renew the thinking that there is a self that enlightens, they would cease suffering in an instant. 

[Foundit]


CT: Sure. Thats not the end of it. That old not mountains thing happens. Good thing there was water there to douse me back to real reality so to speak and I could pick up my axe again. You'll always need wood for the fireplace even if you don't think you do (think being the operative word there in case you missed it). Good times.
 

[Bubbles]

Do you really want enlightenment? I mean really want it. 



 

This 'enlightenment' thing seems a marketing gimmick.The more you believe you are coming closer, the more delusional you are.

-Getting over oneself

-making no excuses whatsoever for any of our actions (taking responsability)

-using rough (buddhist/taoist/..ist) wisdom,

-having one's butt kicked by life (and others) on an almost daily basis  do the job better than doing enlightenment seminars/practices one after the other lead by people who are, more often than not, frauds (neo-advaita, neo-tantra, neo-dzogchen, blah, blah, blah)

 

On the other hand, complicated, intricated, highest, inner, secret teachings are for people who live in caves, monasteries, mountains and who don't have their system polluted by the daily garbage we are exposed to in our modern urban lives.

Edited January 11, 2017 by bubbles

[Foundit]

CT: Wait. My thoughts led me to my first reply but now a question arises. Your statement "If anyone can completely renew the thinking that there is a self that enlightens, they would cease suffering in an instant." implies that you seen this to be true.

 

Does that mean you don't suffer, like, at all, ever? 

 

If not and this is just a  belief, how can you know it's really really true, no doubt whatsoever true, until you get there.

 

Are you not just repeating something you heard and collected without doing the real work to get there? 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Foundit

[Bubbles]

Are you not just repeating something you heard and collected without doing the real work to get there? 

 

From the very little I know about CT, I doubt he is just parroting something he heard.

[MooNiNite]

 

 

Do you really want enlightenment? I mean really want it. 


 

 

 

define enlightenment. 

[Marblehead]

Marblehead: (Not all directed at you just throwing up) Regarding your answer. So you're on a journey with no destination ay? Who told you that, some random you bumped into along it, yourself after repeating and hearing it over and over - Can you really trust yourself to be telling you the Truth if you don't know for sure who or what yourself is?

 

No one told me.  I didn't even tell myself.  It was a matter of realization through awareness.

 

PS  There are no Truths.  Keep to the lower case "t".

 

Could it be that we tell ourselves a lie to avoid the truth (i'll stop putting a caps on it). What if you're already at your destination but still looking down at a map, the fold out paper kind thats so big that it covers your whole experience.

 

Yes, we lie to our self often.  And yes, oftentimes it is to avoid the pain of the truth.

 

I am exactly where I am supposed to be at any given point in time.  If you want a destination for me then you can say that I have arrived at my destination

 

I don't use maps.  I go and end up wherever I am at.

 

What if we challenged everything though. Neti neti style. For years. Lose everything. Drop everything that we identify with and find out what remains?

 

I tried that once.  I declared I didn't exist.  Then I pinched myself and it freakin' hurt.  Who but I could have felt that pain?

 

Edit: Deleted various paragraphs. I'll attempt to be more on point

 

Great.  Please don't try to confuse me with many, many words.  I get confused easily.

 

[Marblehead]

.....

 

No matter how long you've been seeking - would you be willing to start all over again for a chance to find out what enlightenment really is - not what you just assume it is?



 What ever you are expreincing right now is all you need to begin. Nothing else.

 

.....

 

It all starts with you.

 

 

You got that right.

[Marblehead]

FWIW, my screen name when I joined the forum was "A_Seeker".

 

And then you found Brian.

[3bob]

playing the devils advocate has diminishing returns after each hand  

[Marblehead]

playing the devils advocate has diminishing returns after each hand  

 

It's still most times fun though.

[s1va]

What if we challenged everything though. Neti neti style. For years. Lose everything. Drop everything that we identify with and find out what remains?

 

I tried that once.  I declared I didn't exist.  Then I pinched myself and it freakin' hurt.  Who but I could have felt that pain?

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I did that experiment too, declared I didn't exist.  Then when I pinched it did freakin' hurt.

I also concluded, who but I could have the pain.

 

After some thought, revised my earlier conclusion from declaring, "I didn't exist" to declare "I alone exist".

Not exactly "I alone" exist.  There is only ONE that exists, that is manifesting through this body also.  Therefore the perceived pain.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Cauvery

[shortstuff]

Yes, I really want it. Nothing in this material world makes me happy for long. The world is an endless cycle of want-get-enjoy-bored-want...

 

Enlightenment should make me happy. Understanding how to be happy with nothing would be lovely considering whether you are a billionaire or you are homeless, you have the same either way...nothing. Because material goods don't make you happy therefore they are "nothing".

[neti neti]

What if we challenged everything though. Neti neti style. For years. Lose everything. Drop everything that we identify with and find out what remains?

 

Haha!

[3bob]

It's still most times fun though.

yea, I guess the devils advocate is not over until the fat lady sings ;-)

[roger]

It has many names yet it really shouldn't have one in the first place as it can become a massive distraction as most words and concepts have baggage. It's the most obvious and allusive pot of gold (or crap) there is



 

Nonetheless.





 

Do you really want enlightenment? I mean really want it. 





As in throw away all that your have achieved up to now in regard to your path and trinkets you picked up along the way (pun intended).



 


Ah yes. That should be addressed. The way, the dao. I love this stuff. When I learnt about the Way many years ago it lit something inside of me and since then i've been, erm,  lets say brainwashed, by several ways to be, how to be,  why to and what to be - not that i'm complaining, it was a fun ride.

 



So.

I have a, lets call it, (un)perspective, that differs to almost all those around me and I see people getting bogged down in stories that although are fun and entertaining, will untimely never lead to, erm,  enlightenment - unless it's seen for what it is - which might be the reason they exist in the first place. Who knows.



 

Oh yes. I'm not all knowing but I know something that can't be wavered and should (being modest here) be able to stand up to almost any line of inquiry (or attack if you're feeling feisty).



 

I'm not really sure why i'm here, I both don't care and stopped asking certain things. It is what it is.
 If it becomes unhealthy for others I'll leave - if i get bored i'll also leave.


 

And enough noise, back to the original question, do you really want enlightenment?

 

If so, whats stopping you from seeing it right now (and i mean that literally, not figuratively).

 

People fear enlightenment, even those who passionately seek and desire it.

 

What nearly everyone fears is their divine nature, their innocence, their love, and, particularly, their self-love.

 

Enlightenment is the realization of those things, which everyone ALREADY has.

 

Everyone really DOES want those things, and profoundly so. We long utterly for them.

 

So basically, what we fear and what we truly want are the SAME.

 

The journey is about letting go of the fear and manifesting the desire.

[s1va]

Are you not just repeating something you heard and collected without doing the real work to get there?

 

I see where you are coming from. Yes, there may be repetition of what was heard and collected.

 

But, I want to ask the question, is not everything that we discuss, including the language that we use (English) as a medium, is all something heard, collected and repeated many times already? Is there anything new in any of this that we sayl?

 

Every word that we utter is spoken already. Even every idea we convey, is conveyed before at some point, in some place, in some plane of conciousness.

 

Let's take one step back and look at the question you asked, "Are you not just repeating something you heard....?".

 

Isn't this question asked before? Can we not put the same question back to the questioner? Asking, "is your question not a repetition of what you heard and collected?"

 

From such a stand point, we are going to go in a loop, there is nothing left to say or discuss. Not even to ourselves, let alone the perceived others.

 

Edited to add:

 

A wise man once said, there is no need to give any lectures (or engage in any discussion) at all. One who has not seen the truth is not qualified to give lectures to others. One who has seen the truth knows there is no otherness, when there are no others (otherness), who should he give the lecture to?

Edited January 12, 2017 by Cauvery

[Foundit]

Bubbles: Your first post has a lot of assumptions and noise about this and that. Life has content, sure, thats what we focus on and get lost in, look at what or where it's all happening on. 

 

Second post: You never know. Theres knowledge and knowing. I know nothing about lineages and their interpretational baggage, but I know and nothing can shake that. Maybe that's why i'm here to play.

 

MooNiNite I: I could try, but i'd end up sounding like an airy muppet. Akin to trying to describe water when all us fish are swimming in it (and are it). Very silly and won't make much sense. Mix the word around are you get "lightening up" - which one can only do if they see what they are really not - leaving you with what you are and the true definition of the word. 

 

Much more easier to say what it's not - safer too as it won't lead people astray looking for something that really doesn't matter until one sees what it's not. 

 

If however you need a description, read/listen to those that describe it and find the recurring theme and use that as benchmark. I don't feel comfortable describing for the above distraction reason, yet I did say this a few posts above:

It's constant - not an experience

All ways here - as long as I am

Not what I thought it would be 

Additional: it's everywhere and nowhere depending where the focus is

 

Anyway, more importantly, who cares what my definition of it is. It's all about you. It always has been, it's not about me (other) - i'm words on screen talking nonsense. Deal with me later. First you.

 

That wasn't the best of questions one could ask if you really wanted it - so, i wonder, what is a good question?

 

3bob: I'm already seeing the error of my approach. 

 

Marblehead: You didn't exist for a sec. Good stuff. So you tested yourself by pinching and it hurt and declared you existed once again. Could you have gone further? If pain can come and go. Not it. Where was the pain? I see your logic but there was more. 

 

Again, we want to eliminate everything we're not, including ideas that we don't exist, keep going, until your left with what left. It might be a disappointment to many who have elevated the concept through stories and assumptions. 

 

And, I'd have to disagree. There might not be truths, but there is Truth. The finale so to speak. It doesn't really seem like it as it's more like No-lies conclusion. It's like a bait and switch. You can't lie anymore because the curtains have come down and you've seen the joke. Nothing's the same anymore, while also very similar. 

 

Cauvery: Not bad, keep going. If you think you've come to answer to a question. Revisit the next day and pull it apart and see the underlying falseness of it all. Its not always fun, especially if we have to destroy something we really identify with. Don't settle especially if you've think you come up with something. 

Getting to a place where you seen past everything is a lonely place. You can't kid yourself anymore and you'll know without a doubt. 

 

Shortstuff: If you want it - use what you have right now. Become a scientist of your reality and look at it from every angle. Write down an apparent truth and see the error, focus on the assumption we make. Every time you come up with a new truth, look it at it again another day and see the error. Rince and repeat for a few years while being gentle on yourself. Approach it like a curious child rather than a serious seeker. 

____

Although I may be challenging here all i'm pointing to is to keep going if you really want it. If you post something in response, come back here and pull it apart yourself, rather than have me do it. Much more helpful as it's you doing it to you. No lying to yourself anymore. 

 

Rest if you need to do, but get back to it and destroy everything, literally, and whatever doesn't burn after repeated examination, you'll know, and you'll discover that no one can know more than that and that you're equal to everyone including all masters past and present. Read over there stuff and you'll see it all a new light. 

 

Then feck around and relax as it's all a big joke and the best part of it all, is that you're the punch line. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Foundit