Do you really want it?

[Bubbles]

This is all good but until we see how all this allow so-called enlightened people handle real life situations like family fights, unemployement, child death, dementia of an elderly family member; this is nice and easy talk.

What is the value of enlightenment as a concept with nice verbose slogans that gives people an escape hatch from life?

 

 

[Brian]

This is all good but until we see how all this allow so-called enlightened people handle real life situations like family fights, unemployement, child death, dementia of an elderly family member; this is nice and easy talk.

What is the value of enlightenment as a concept with nice verbose slogans that gives people an escape hatch from life?

I haven't experienced child death.

 

EDIT: For the record, I don't consider myself enlightened

Edited January 13, 2017 by Brian

[Boy]

This is all good but until we see how all this allow so-called enlightened people handle real life situations like family fights, unemployement, child death, dementia of an elderly family member; this is nice and easy talk.

What is the value of enlightenment as a concept with nice verbose slogans that gives people an escape hatch from life?

 

 

Spot on!!

[Foundit]

When it's all you, the situation is still as it is. Sadness still can pop up, but the relationship to that sadness is different. If anything it's more pure as there less ego to play with it further than it needs to be. 

 

And yet, again, it's not helpful/practical to hear someone's interpretation of what it is like (not that it's like anything, other than it is what it is).

 

The content of life is varied and thus the experiences vary. If you focus on the contents you'll be there forever and never get anywhere. Focus should be where/what its all occurring on/in. 

 

So, get there and see for yourself, then life will happen as it was always going to (which may or may not involve your choice of example life experiences) 

 

If you're not wanting to do the work, leave it be. Play in the theme park and go on as many rides as possible. If you want to leave the theme park you know what to do.

 

 Thats my ultimate pointless point starting this thread and participating.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Foundit

[Bubbles]

I haven't experienced child death.

 

EDIT: For the record, I don't consider myself enlightened

 

Thanks Brian

[Bubbles]

 

When it's all you, the situation is still as it is. Sadness still can pop up, but the relationship to that sadness is different. If anything it's more pure as there less ego to play with it further than it needs to be. 

 

And yet, again, it's not helpful/practical to hear someone's interpretation of what it is like (not that it's like anything, other than it is what it is).

 

The content of life is varied and thus the experiences vary. If you focus on the contents you'll be there forever and never get anywhere. Focus should be where/what its all occurring on/in. 

 

So, get there and see for yourself, then life will happen as it was always going to (which may or may not involve your choice of example life experiences) 

 

If you're not wanting to do the work, leave it be. Play in the theme park and go on as many rides as possible. If you want to leave the theme park you know what to do.

 

 Thats my ultimate pointless point starting this thread and participating.

 

 

Words are cheap and internet is full of posers so only life, not me, not you, will check the posers' and armchair enlightened people.

[Boy]

@bubbles: that is very true in a way. have you ever applied this fierce criticism towards a mirror? I'm thinking of your link in particular. Perhaps you could see me as a representative of "life"

[Foundit]

Indeed. I'm definitely a poser by the way. Hard not to be in life, especially when talking about this  

[Bubbles]

@bubbles: that is very true in a way. have you ever applied this fierce criticism towards a mirror? I'm thinking of your link in particular. Perhaps you could see me as a representative of "life"

 

Yes, walk your talk or shut up. This doesn't seem very spiritual. I am convinced it is.

Thank you for being a representative of life.

 

I went to some workshops with Jean Klein direct disciples, went to zazen sesshin with reputable people, etc. Have read hundreds of books with all the same words and ideas again and again. There was a time when I could parrot all these things and believe I was a spiritual man.

Some of these people went to my home. I have seen that they were as ungrounded as people can be.

They didn't live by their words.

 

I am not enlightened a bit. I only know that until spirituality is into your very bones, blood, behavior, gestures, actions it means nothing at all. Hence: walk your talk or shut up.

I have nothing real to say about enlightenment: I am a jerk, I am bossy, I am selfish, proud etc. That's what I see in the mirror, that's what people see when I post and I would never pretend I am not. The so-called spiritual experiences I had didn't change a bit what I am.

 

Until the subjective is not found into the objective and reciprocally, there is nothing to talk about, seen from my side of the world.

End of the story.

Edited January 13, 2017 by bubbles

[Foundit]

A part of this involves emptying our cups - including ideas on how people are suppose to act and be. 

 

I can't speak of those you mentioned, but it's not about them. It's about you. It's not about me and my verbal diarrhoea either. It's about you. You. Always look there.

 

This isn't about spiritual experiences, as fun as there are.

 

None of us have any say in the matter on what we end up doing, or not. We can become distracted easily, even more so when things sparkle. From an evolutionary story perspective, that meant water. So we would stop and have a good look, forgetting where we were going.

 

If one does the proper work - diligently - towards it, you'll remain as you are. Just a lighter version of it maybe. Over time some things might get watered down further as things are seen for what they are without additional story-noise that comes along with the content. We are who we are, or rather we are who we pretend to be. Hoping to become another type of person isn't what this is about, it's about undoing the person we think we are right now, revealing....well....only you can find out. 

 

This isn't about feeling good and listening to descriptions either -  it's about finding out what reality really is. 

 

I'm not sure the story ever ends - it's far too entertaining.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Foundit

[Foundit]

When reading my post, replace all the 'you' with 'I'. Thats where the focus should be. If not, it's pointing at the wrong place when reading it to yourself

Edited January 13, 2017 by Foundit

[Marblehead]

This is all good but until we see how all this allow so-called enlightened people handle real life situations like family fights, unemployement, child death, dementia of an elderly family member; this is nice and easy talk.

What is the value of enlightenment as a concept with nice verbose slogans that gives people an escape hatch from life?

 

That's where Taoist Philosophy enters the picture.

[Bubbles]

Epictetus:

 

Never call yourself a philosopher, nor talk a great deal among the unlearned about theorems, but act conformably to them. Thus, at an entertainment, don't talk how persons ought to eat, but eat as you ought. For remember that in this manner Socrates also universally avoided all ostentation. And when persons came to him and desired to be recommended by him to philosophers, he took and recommended them, so well did he bear being overlooked. So that if ever any talk should happen among the unlearned concerning philosophic theorems, be you, for the most part, silent. For there is great danger in immediately throwing out what you have not digested. And, if anyone tells you that you know nothing, and you are not nettled at it, then you may be sure that you have begun your business. For sheep don't throw up the grass to show the shepherds how much they have eaten; but, inwardly digesting their food, they outwardly produce wool and milk. Thus, therefore, do you likewise not show theorems to the unlearned, but the actions produced by them after they have been digested.

[Bubbles]

That's where Taoist Philosophy enters the picture.

Yes.

[子泰]

What's the plan now Foundit? What will happen when you die?

[Foundit]

Sit back and watch the show unfold while pretending i'm in control. 

 

The second question, I don't know.

 

I can guess, but that doesn't help and isn't a practical inquiry. Stick to what you know here and now and leave all guessing alone. 

[words]

@Foundit , did you find it recently? 

 

(and...I don't know how to ask this, because...words or even why i am asking this. did you feel the drop(-ing), or you just woke up in the ocean?)

 

i am asking because from here it looks like there is still a tendency to do something with 'it'. or like it still wants to describe/test itself by making itself into a topic to be discussed.

 

you know what i mean?

[Marblehead]

... while pretending i'm in control. 

 

 

I have that delusion too.  But it works when I am at home.  When I leave my home that delusion stays home.

[3bob]

the hub of the wheel need not claim control but without it there is no turning.

[3bob]

shaking the bushes to see what pops out can be interesting, useful and dangerous, there is also that saying about letting a sleeping dog lie. 

[Boy]

@bubbles: that's a sad story, bubbles. Please, if anything, remember than a long time ago on the internet, some asshole told you that enlightenment is not bullshit.

 

@Foundit: You really are self made, Foundit! Congratulations!

[johndoe2012]

This is all good but until we see how all this allow so-called enlightened people handle real life situations like family fights, unemployement, child death, dementia of an elderly family member; this is nice and easy talk.

What is the value of enlightenment as a concept with nice verbose slogans that gives people an escape hatch from life?

Yes some use spirituality as escapism.

 

I was unemployed for a long time and it was no fun as it brought up all my survival issues.

[Bubbles]

@bubbles: that's a sad story, bubbles. Please, if anything, remember than a long time ago on the internet, some asshole told you that enlightenment is not bullshit.

No, it's not a sad story to me! I took this as a bell ring: spirituality has to be down-to-earth otherwise it is a big lie.

 

If, as a so-called enlightened man, I am upset because I am in the traffic jam and I think I will miss my train.

If I am so high in my meditations that I can't fill in my tax declaration (in my country it is a very simple thing to do) so my devout disciples have to do this for me and pay my taxes at he same time (why not,right?)

If I embezzle some money in order to open my meditation center;

if, as a man, I choose special women among my disciples in order to give them blessings from the inside (no need to be graphic here, right?);

Then my enlightenment is a lie.

 

These are real examples from real life. I don't call that crazy wisdom, or awakening-is-just-that-as-it-is-there-is-no-one-to-be-enlightened-only-that-as-it-is-no-need-to-change-what-is. I call that a lie.

 

Clever and astute people can read spiritual books (especially true with neo-advaita, because there is no tradition, so no need to be accountable in any way), digest them, train a little their speech skills on various internet forums (ahem, ahem..) before giving satsangs, with in-person and online blessings for a monthly fee.

 

Sure, it doesn't have to be as ugly as I describe it. I don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, but it is so easy to fool ourselves and others on that matter.

 

So I hear you, you're not an asshole. _/\_

Edited January 15, 2017 by bubbles

[SeekerOfHealing]

Enlightenment is not matter of wanting or not wanting. It's just perception and there are various views to open eyes or ear to that dimension.

[Boy]

@bubbles: I love your writing! (edit: and I agree 99.99999%) Now, it's not sexy, but pertinent to this thread and quite useful - look into self realization vs self actualization! It's perhaps too vedantic for your tastes but I believe the logic applies nonetheless. I was/remained a proper asshole for a few years for example, but then I got it together somewhat. I think you'll go through the same. Much love!

Edited January 15, 2017 by Boy