The _real_ Buddhists are adorable!

[Taomeow]

[Rara]

There's a lot of debating and arguing among "Taoists" too...especially on forums hehe.

[thelerner]

Teenagers!!  ever thus, everywhere.  

[MooNiNite]

I wonder what about..

[Taomeow]

Teenagers!!  ever thus, everywhere.  

 

You never met an argumentative senior in a heated debate with other seniors?..

 

It's not the age thing.  It's the human thing.  I loved seeing real Buddhists behave like humans, in earnest -- instead of faking what the fake ones so often fake.    

[MooNiNite]

There's a lot of debating and arguing among "Taoists" too...especially on forums hehe.

Everything is art, nothing is perfect; thus, there is always opportunity to provoke change.

 

In a sense, Taoism encourages arguing by not believing in absolute. 

[Taomeow]

I wonder what about..

 

The subtitles say, about the Hungry Ghosts.  This is particularly interesting since Hungry Ghosts are a taoist concept.  I would love to understand the discussion too. 

[MooNiNite]

The subtitles say, about the Hungry Ghosts.  This is particularly interesting since Hungry Ghosts are a taoist concept.  I would love to understand the discussion too. 

The Hungry Ghosts are a Tibetan Buddhist concept, maybe it originated with the Taoists, but it is atleast important to them. 

 

According to the Bhavacakra

 

 

 

This picture is way too big. But i guess you can see them. 

 

 

Anyways

 

Wanted to ask you Taomeow, do you see the Hungry Ghosts as a metaphor for the human psyche?

Edited January 12, 2017 by MooNiNite

[Taomeow]

The Hungry Ghosts are a Tibetan Buddhist concept, maybe it originated with the Taoists, but it is atleast important to them. 

 

According to the Bhavacakra

 

 

This picture is way too big. But i guess you can see them. 

 

 

Anyways

 

Wanted to ask you Taomeow, do you see the Hungry Ghosts as a metaphor for the human psyche?

 

Thanks for the picture!  Yes, I know the concept is present in dzogchen, but it predates the Taoist Canon by thousands of years -- while Buddhism is relatively young...  and Tibetan Buddhism is a gateway Buddhism to taoism anyway (at least it was for me ) 

 

Do I see the Hungry Ghosts as a metaphor for the human psyche?  Mostly no, although some of them do reside within.  Early taoism was all about Inner Gods, which were understood as actual resident deities, not metaphors, inside the human being.  Ghosts and demons, ditto, can reside within, but this does not mean that's their only place of residence.  Many are disenfranchised and don't have a descendant to offer inner space, and these are inhabitants of the Hungry Ghosts realm exclusively, with occasional (and in some places, frequent) visits to our own realm in search of nourishment, or to express their dissatisfaction with their status via assorted random acts of unkindness.  Historically, it was one of the chief occupations for a taoist, to exorcise them when they bothered a village or town.  Some taoists specialized in this, wandering with their ghost-trapping gourd and/or writing and prescribing talismans; while others (taoist priests) had many other responsibilities but were invited/hired when a problem would arise in order to perform the appropriate ritual.       

[C T]

The subtitles say, about the Hungry Ghosts.  This is particularly interesting since Hungry Ghosts are a taoist concept.  I would love to understand the discussion too. 

The Hungry Ghost realm happens to be a Buddhist concept as well, Taomeow. But very often it is explained in the following way, although not exclusively so: 

 

When I came into Zen practice I would hear reference to these Hungry Ghosts, which seemed like part of an exotic Buddhist cosmology, and I didn’t relate to them.  But I’ve come to understand Hungry Ghosts quite differently.  The Hungry Ghost – or the state of being that it represents – is something found inside us.  The type of Hungry Ghost may be different for each of us, but the energy behind the hunger is the same.  There is something we crave, something we feel that we desperately need to be happy.  We’re always wanting something – it’s a fundamental illness.  This could take the form of the craving of addiction.  It could be the greed for money or possessions – there are people who have plenty of wealth but who are obsessed with not having enough, with needing more.  It could be a relentless craving for fame, for recognition, or even for whatever our concept of enlightenment is. These Hungry Ghosts can roam inside of us, sometimes more dormant, sometimes more active. (From a Zen teaching by Deidre Eisho Peterson)

 

 

Metaphorically used to describe the extremities of craving, and also alludes to beings who are susceptible to addictive disorders, or those who have yet to develop a natural understanding of the virtues of contentment, and therefore remain under the control of negative emotions associated with this particular realm/state of existence. 

[Wells]

.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[doc benway]

...  and Tibetan Buddhism is a gateway Buddhism to taoism anyway (at least it was for me )    

 

It was the opposite for me!

 

[Taomeow]

It was the opposite for me!

 

 

May not be the end of it either.  'Cause while one gate from dzogchen may lead to taoism, another one exits straight into bön.  And bön has a tunnel connecting it directly to proto-taoism, and from there, you can, with some tools stashed away in various nooks and crannies of that tunnel, dig your way straight into taoism and emerge from the triple realm of the Lower-Middle-Higher world into the triple realm of Earth-Humanity-Heaven --

 

and then we'll meet again.      

[Taoist Texts]

[MooNiNite]

Bon is why Tibetan Buddhism is so fascinating. Very mystical. 

[Taomeow]

The Hungry Ghost realm happens to be a Buddhist concept as well, Taomeow. But very often it is explained in the following way, although not exclusively so: 

 

 

Metaphorically used to describe the extremities of craving, and also alludes to beings who are susceptible to addictive disorders, or those who have yet to develop a natural understanding of the virtues of contentment, and therefore remain under the control of negative emotions associated with this particular realm/state of existence. 

 

That's the Buddhist later reinterpretation of the original taoist concept.  Taoist gui are not metaphors and don't represent internal problems or negative emotions or lack of virtue.  They are, instead, the outcome of social disarray -- the ancestors not given offerings and not venerated, the victims of violent or otherwise wrongful death, fallen soldiers, terminated family lineages, and the poor who hungered while alive.  These are actual people who lived hungry lives or had their lives taken away before satiation with living, or left hungry after death by negligent posterity.  That's the taoist view which I share.  I don't psychologize or otherwise reinterpret classical taoist concepts that don't feel comfortable or reputable enough when pitched against "modern" views, whether religious or scientific.  I just take them for face value.  The ancients had perceptions we no longer have.  I trust them.  I don't trust interpretations with didactic agendas.  Hungry ghosts are a symptom, one of many, of the "tao in the human wold has been destroyed" state of affairs.  I don't make light of this by viewing their existence as a psychological problem.  No.  It's an existential problem that concerns all of humanity.  

 

D' you reckon if you and I -- if you were dressed in one of those red robes like the guys of the OP,  and I, in the blue robe with scarlet clouds...  d'you reckon we would engage in as much screaming over it?   

[C T]

That's the Buddhist later reinterpretation of the original taoist concept.  Taoist gui are not metaphors and don't represent internal problems or negative emotions or lack of virtue.  They are, instead, the outcome of social disarray -- the ancestors not given offerings and not venerated, the victims of violent or otherwise wrongful death, fallen soldiers, terminated family lineages, and the poor who hungered while alive.  These are actual people who lived hungry lives or had their lives taken away before satiation with living, or left hungry after death by negligent posterity.  That's the taoist view which I share.  I don't psychologize or otherwise reinterpret classical taoist concepts that don't feel comfortable or reputable enough when pitched against "modern" views, whether religious or scientific.  I just take them for face value.  The ancients had perceptions we no longer have.  I trust them.  I don't trust interpretations with didactic agendas.  Hungry ghosts are a symptom, one of many, of the "tao in the human wold has been destroyed" state of affairs.  I don't make light of this by viewing their existence as a psychological problem.  No.  It's an existential problem that concerns all of humanity.  

 

D' you reckon if you and I -- if you were dressed in one of those red robes like the guys of the OP,  and I, in the blue robe with scarlet clouds...  d'you reckon we would engage in as much screaming over it?   

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to engage with you... in any coloured robe, or none at all, whichever takes your fancy   

[Taomeow]

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to engage with you... in any coloured robe, or none at all, whichever takes your fancy   

That's the spirit!

[Brian]

I suspect there'd be more laughing than screaming.

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to engage with you... in any coloured robe

 

these colors don't run

[Apech]

Vigorous debate as shown in the OP video is encouraged in Tibetan Monasteries - in fact the current Dalai Lama had to win such debate in public to achieve his qualifications as a Geshe/Lama.

 

What’s more interesting (to me at any rate) is the historical close connection between the development of Tibetan Buddhism and Daoism.  The Tibetans (probably to enforce authenticity) tend to stress exclusively the Indian root of their system.  And it’s true that what they preserved is the tantric buddhism of medieval India before it died out in that country - together with the monastic tradition of Atisha etc.  They also stress the spiritual authority they possessed through various great Lamas like Sakya Pandita and the Karmapas as spiritual mentors to Chinese emperors.  But I think this will be shown to be a very one sided account.

 

I’ve noticed a few references to the reverse influence and indeed the mutual regard between the yogic tradition in Tibet and the Daoists.  For instance some tankas show the trigrams of the I Ching - and my teacher said that his Tibetan teacher had recommended the I Ching to him as a method of divination - saying it had ‘a great heart’.

 

The latest thing I read was in a book called ‘A Golden Swan in Turbulent Waters’ by Shamar Rinpoche - which is an account of the life of the 10th Karmapa (1604 - 1674) in which Daoist masters are mentioned briefly in a contemporary account - I’ll give the quote below:

 

“At that time (1661), some Chinese monks arrived from China.  In their company were also Chinese scholars and professors.  They were very learned on the teachings of the Lotus Sutra. …… Chinese Taoshi also arrived.  These groups from China addressed Karma as Siphu. Karmapa gave them hats, shoes, and clothing for their travels.”

 

This in itself is not much to go on.  And the way it is termed it suggests that Karmapa as ‘Siphu’ had the authority in this relationship.  But I would suggest this disguises a two way dialogue which long existed - in fact one which was sufficiently strong that an environment of mutual teaching and learning was taking place.

 

 

Anyway just a thought

[MooNiNite]

emerge from the triple realm of the Lower-Middle-Higher world into the triple realm of Earth-Humanity-Heaven. 

 

Is this like something that happens? Like a sensation or experience? Can you explain?

[thelerner]

You never met an argumentative senior in a heated debate with other seniors?..

 

It's not the age thing.  It's the human thing.  I loved seeing real Buddhists behave like humans, in earnest -- instead of faking what the fake ones so often fake.    

You have a point.  I remembering reading how some newly appointed Zen patriarchs had to be temporarily hidden inorder to keep them from being removed or assassinated by fellow monks.  Vendettas between various schools that seemingly preach harmony, happened back then, as well as right now. 

 

I still cling to the hope that with age, comes maturity.  That we remain human, running hot, cold, outraged and loving; and that the best of us gain more perspective and balance as they get on in years.   In the OP video one of the monks seems to be raising a whip in threat.  He doesn't hit though and the others don't back off. 

 

In Judaism Yeshiva's (formal religious schools) have sections taught through argument.  Older students are divided into twos, who then debate the texts loudly and vigorously, like lawyers arguing a contentious case.

[doc benway]

May not be the end of it either.  'Cause while one gate from dzogchen may lead to taoism, another one exits straight into bön.  And bön has a tunnel connecting it directly to proto-taoism, and from there, you can, with some tools stashed away in various nooks and crannies of that tunnel, dig your way straight into taoism and emerge from the triple realm of the Lower-Middle-Higher world into the triple realm of Earth-Humanity-Heaven --

 

and then we'll meet again.      

 

No doubt about it!

 

_/\_

 

 

 

_/\_

[Taomeow]

Is this like something that happens? Like a sensation or experience? Can you explain?

 

I meant that Lower-Middle-Higher world is the prevalent shamanic worldview, and bön was a kind of formalized/scriptured  shamanism (before the Buddhist conquest of Tibet), as was proto-taoism (with oral lore and graphic diagrams rather than scriptures) which reinterpreted these shamanic concepts as the Earth-Humanity-Heaven triad.  

 

Sensations and experiences are possible if you go back to shamanic underpinnings of either.  In magical taoism, e.g., there's procedures that are pretty much indistinguishable from those used in many shamanic traditions, complete with journeying into the depth of the Earth (the Lower world) and invoking a magical horse to then take you to the realms of your choosing.  It starts out as a taoist meditation and from there goes back into the shamanic trance. In bön, which I don't know all that well, there's its own counterparts, of which I only remember the Upper World god, known as are the White Old Man or Pehar.  His thing is to turn into a shamanic bird that can take you to the upper realm.  The shamanic journey motifs are very similar.