Ruthless Sage

[Golden Dragon Shining]

"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs; the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs."

What is this?
 

[Edward M]

I dont give up my principles for no one, ok?! ya big dummy!!!

[shazlor]

Hmmmmmmmm I just read this which seems to hit the principal in my understanding;

 

"Musashi also wrote well of one of the most mystical elements in existence: the concept of the void. To achieve the void awareness is to be in the ultimate state of no-mind gnosis.

 

*

A state in which it seems nothing exists, when in fact you are only seeing the most refined aspects of all living things, and therefore do not recognize them as existent.

*

 

In this state of "empty mind," not only can powerful magic be cast, but also the most excellent martial skill can be exhibited"

 

P.S various chapter 5 verses/commentaries and Musashis book of the void.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by shazlor

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Significant differences with "is not sentimental" and "is not benevolent" ... non sentimental may be more toward high reasoning. Say a relationship fails, a fiction about a man whose love chooses another and he commits suicide over it, this is insane/ irrational (sentimentality) hah.

A sage may be "harsh" for the overall benefit of the student, like a father smashing a gaming console his child's life has been near entirely captured by.

Buddha allowed/supported a military force at his fathers request.

I don't think Nature is without Consciousness/Intent, I think it has purpose/ intelligence... as we have, my emotion etc an expression of/ attribute of Tao. They speak of a void/no-mind, yet having intention within this.


 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Sionnach

[Jeff]

"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs; the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs."

What is this?

 

Be like Heaven and Earth. Go with the natural order/flow. Don't get caught up in other people's issues and fears, see through them instead.

[Spotless]

The sage and the saint are brought to the stage here:

 

While both have been released from the bondage of grasping

the sage is far more apt to speak and teach from where "the rubber meets the road".

 

I think Edward M was trying to capture this in the second post here.

 

The sage is often like a thousand small (and not so small) slaps - never

wth malice but firm and unapologetic. For many this is the only teaching

that can be heard (at least for a time).

 

The saint is often the resort of the broken or those softened by circumstance.

And those that have withstood the endless slapping of a prickly sage.

 

(it's not personal or identified - just clean jabs at unconsciousness / illusion)

Edited January 15, 2017 by Spotless

[sagebrush]

ok yes poignantly typed spotless.

 

meanwhile I am combing my field of travels and remembering a profound discovery many years ago.

 

it was located and forgive me for my lack of eloquence in description.

 

basically a carnivorous plant on some property of an old employer that I went to visit.

 

off the grid in n california

 

funny how I became aware of it...

the landowners had no idea...not that that was any great loss but being good stewards of the land not sure how it went unnoticed by retired person albeit the one still holds job occasionally.

 

so off the topic yes....

 

I want off the topic of the unconscious/illusions

I want out of the confines of how you perceive these matters.

oh yes, I could leave the forum

but that is not the pricklysage I am after

 

Darlingtonia -pitcher plant

I got a few decent photos but

I would love to go back and explore this rare plant.

no fun in a book or over internet.

 

I have regret that I did not spend more time at this location in hindsight

 

the first plant ever identified was on mt Shasta.

 

I have lots of compliments to offer. just so underdeveloped.

and most likely unwanted

[Spotless]

(Darlingtonia -pitcher plant

 

I had no idea this was native to these areas (Oregon-Cal) - assumed they were tropical but instead prefer cold climes.)

[Astral Monk]

Since the sage is in tune with heaven and earth, they must treat people as heaven and earth do, not differently. Heaven and earth dont show preference for any being or any value, hence its appearance to those beings is ruthless, unconcerned, and even abusive. The sage reveals truth--the world as it is. How could the sage's words be dipped in honey?

 

8)

[RiverSnake]

Compassion is detached. 

[Marblehead]

Compassion is detached. 

 

That is very true.  True compassion is without attachment.

[grassmountiansage]

The OP is something that when read will reflect your own  nature.

 

Not putting one creature above the other may seem ruthless but heaven and earth supports all equally.

 

Plus people adopt straw dogs or leave food and water out for them....

 

The OP is deep and makes one think on the nature of the heart on all things.

[dawei]

I would not of translated 'bu ren' (不仁) as ruthless nor as most others try (unbenevolent, inhumane, indifferent, etc).

 

I've argued in another thread that it may be better to first leave one word untranslated, then proceed to its meaning....

 

'Not Ren' -  Ren is an important Confucian term:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism)

the Confucian virtue denoting the good feeling a virtuous human experiences when being altruistic. Ren is exemplified by a normal adult's protective feelings for children. It is considered the outward expression of Confucian ideals.

 

So, one could say that Heaven, Earth and the Sage are not [following/demonstrating/employing] the Confucian ideal of Ren...

 

An additional angle I now see is that the same passage talks of Straw Dogs and we've talked a lot about that as well... but the fact that that was basically a ceremonial act, it now seems to me that one could understand 'Bu Ren' to mean:

 

Heaven, Earth and the Sage are not acting on Confucian ceremony.    Then it goes on to mention treating the 10,000 as a different kind of ceremony...  a little bit of a stretch so I'll leave it there.

[[email protected]]

"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs; the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs."

 

What is this?

 

May be this means that people should not take heaven as something to help and should put efforts for own development by themselves?

[Mudfoot]

I once got the explanation that a straw dog is not real.

And from the point of view of the absolute, our thoughts, passions, inclinations and so on are not real either. Followed by a discussion of what "real" was in this context.

[Rara]

"In the T'ien yün chapter in the Chuang Tzu", it is said that straw dogs were treated with the greatest deference before they were used as an offering, only to be discarded and trampled upon as soon as they had served their purpose" - D.C Lau

 

The best way I can describe this is that nature has its way with all things.

 

The sage imitates nature and thus has this approach with people.

 

Seems a bit off, doesn't it? Then again, utilizing things that are only needed to be utilized to serve their purpose and then move on, is big Taoist princinple. So perhaps this shouldn't be taken too literally (otherwise I can portray the sage as a fascist dictator which is quite inconsistent with the rest of TTC!)

[thelerner]

"In the T'ien yün chapter in the Chuang Tzu", it is said that straw dogs were treated with the greatest deference before they were used as an offering, only to be discarded and trampled upon as soon as they had served their purpose" - D.C Lau

 

The best way I can describe this is that nature has its way with all things.

 

The sage imitates nature and thus has this approach with people.

 

Seems a bit off, doesn't it? Then again, utilizing things that are only needed to be utilized to serve their purpose and then move on, is big Taoist princinple. So perhaps this shouldn't be taken too literally (otherwise I can portray the sage as a fascist dictator which is quite inconsistent with the rest of TTC!)

Straw dogs are treated with deference until they serve there purpose.  They may be discarded after that, but no need to trample them.  Perhaps recycle.  Plus the wise can admire, find meaning and value, in the worthless and empty. 

 

Nature is one of out teachers and we have much to learn from her, but we have others as well.  

[Wu Ming Jen]

Kind of the opposite meaning as "who does God love more a baptized baby, a baby, an animal or a plant".

 

Nothing being higher or lower (straw dog) is a more balanced mental state than the physiological implications on humanity when something can be valued more than something else without reason as one thing would not actually exist with out the other.

[Rara]

Straw dogs are treated with deference until they serve there purpose. They may be discarded after that, but no need to trample them. Perhaps recycle. Plus the wise can admire, find meaning and value, in the worthless and empty.

 

Nature is one of out teachers and we have much to learn from her, but we have others as well.

Absolutely. And the Chuang Tzu also had the odd parable on everything having its use.

 

It doesn't seem right that Lao Tzu would have talked about the sage in this way, considering the general tone of the TTC. It wouldn't surprise me if this section was heavily adulterated.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Rara

[Rara]

Kind of the opposite meaning as "who does God love more a baptized baby, a baby, an animal or a plant".

 

Nothing being higher or lower (straw dog) is a more balanced mental state than the physiological implications on humanity when something can be valued more than something else without reason as one thing would not actually exist with out the other.

Hi Wu Ming Jen. I would like to interpret it this way. Do you have a source that "straw dog" refers to the nothing higher, nothing lower? And also, what about the tampling on them once they have no further use?

[Wu Ming Jen]

Hi Rara, "Heaven and Earth are not partial. They do not kill living things out of cruelty or give them birth out of kindness.

 

​Straw dogs have ceremonial purpose so not made out of love and then destroyed out of hate.

[Marblehead]

The best way I can describe this is that nature has its way with all things.

 

The sage imitates nature and thus has this approach with people.

 

I think that says it all.

[Marblehead]

I think the word "trampling" has significance here.  It's not that the people are trampling on them intentionally or with intent.  It is just that they are lying in the roadway/walkway and trampling on them cannot be avoided. 

[dawei]

Do you have a source that "straw dog" refers to the nothing higher, nothing lower? And also, what about the tampling on them once they have no further use?

 

 

 

As to "Straw Dogs": The Xiang'er manuscript reveals that this originates with the Yellow emperor (Huang Di) and was nothing to do with ritual / burial issues... only later did some change it's meaning and use to that. Bokenhamp deals with this in his translation in Early Daoist Scriptures.

[silent thunder]

Form and function are no less than the expression of the universe through the 10,000 things, yet they are no more, nor less important than empty space and formlessness.  The interplay of form and space is part of the key to the mysterious gate to me.

 

There is no devaluation of form and structure when one realizes and acknowledges that emptiness and formlessness are on equal footing in the flow of the universe with form.  Indeed how could there be one without the other?

 

Straw dogs are formed and carried around for the festival, honored and used in the games and merriment.  Then when the festival ends they are dropped where they lie and are trampled underfoot without a second thought, yet also without a malicious thought.  There form ends and it recedes to formless and there is no devaluation, nor exaltation either way.