no one is guilty

[roger]

This truth is so important that it couldn't be overemphasized imo.

 

Except for "New Age" (for lack of a better way of putting it) teachers, nearly all traditions overlook it.

 

ACIM defines "death" as the apparent (but not actual) loss of one's divine nature and identity.

 

It says, "What is the end of death? Nothing more than this; the realization that the Son of God (all beings) is guiltless, now and forever."

 

Essentially, "enlightenment" is knowing your innocence, your worth, which are part of your divine nature.

 

Now, I DO believe a person can be awake, realized, or whatever, and not INTELLECTUALLY understand that all beings are innocent. BUT, they must have "found their innocence" in some way- whether they call it "innocence" or not.

 

The shortcut to enlightenment, the easy approach that can save years or perhaps even lifetimes, is the total acceptance of the fact that one is entirely guilty of nothing.

[Marblehead]

Feeling idealistic again, are you Roger?

 

I can't agree with you here because of the word "intent".

[Brian]

Ummm...

 

Curiously, roger's post doesn't contain the word "intent."

 

I can't agree with you, Marblehead, because of the word "butterscotch."

Edited January 17, 2017 by Brian

[johndoe2012]

The shortcut to enlightenment, the easy approach that can save years or perhaps even lifetimes, is the total acceptance of the fact that one is entirely guilty of nothing.

 

This needs to be repeated over and over and the mental chatter claiming we are doing this and that needs to be seen.

[Astral Monk]

If the truth is no one is guilty of anything, then the concept of responsibility is illusory, empty, groundless.

 

Fortunately I agree with that. Afterall, dems de facts!!

 

8)

[liminal_luke]

This is a tough one, Roger.  Intuitively, I think you might be onto something about innocence except that I keep thinking about the murderers.  Well, not just them -- also the thieves, kidnappers, wife beaters, child abusers, corporate polluters, and that guy from Nigeria who keeps emailing me about his banking problems.  Are they innocent?  Maybe in some sort of deep down butterscotch sundae kind of way they are.  As a practical manner though, I`m glad some of them are locked up so they can`t hurt me.  

 

Bad people exist.  You can argue that they`re perfectly bad and you might be right.  Still bad though.  

Edited January 17, 2017 by liminal_luke

[thursday]

Hm, I think like Luke says there's some truth to it..

It's just that getting to 'a state of innocence' is something that I believe most people will have to work hard for and would be more of a result from the work done with meditation and daily activity. Does anyone think it can be skipped?

 

I also believe that some people that went into spiritual practises, whom came out acknowledged as "masters" because they can do some stuff, have the potential to mislead other people and probably know themselves that they are doing it to them.. Yet they don't change, why is that?

 

Thinking about things like black magick for instance.. And some products being sold online may also be highly misleading and disguised as something "light" while behind the scenes other things can be at work..

 

Yet these products were created by people that claim they are of the light and wanting to help bring enlightenment to people.. Maybe these sellers can delude themselves into thinking they are innocent and even enlightened? I believe that sooner or later the universe is going to give them a rough wake up call though..

Edited January 17, 2017 by thursday

[Fa Xin]

Thursday, I would like a list of said products! You have piqued my interest. I'd like to purchase a spiritual Trojan horse for riding.

 

I interpret Rogers meaning to be "deep down" we are all innocent.

 

Sure there's murderers, pedophiles, that Nigerian prince... But at one time they were innocent babes before they were corrupted, poisoned and became the product of their life and karma. Uh oh...I feel a "nature vs nurture" debate approaching.

 

I can relate to what Roger is saying simply because I have come to that conclusion as well through bodhicitta and loving kindness practices. During such states of compassion I do see the good in everyone and we are all the same, humans seeking happiness right? Psychological conditions not withstanding.

[Fa Xin]

If the truth is no one is guilty of anything, then the concept of responsibility is illusory, empty, groundless.

 

Fortunately I agree with that. Afterall, dems de facts!!

 

8)

I do think there is repercussions for our actions and justice so to speak.

 

I feel like the innocence here, is acknowledging yourself as a Slice of the divine God pie. Understanding that can bring a lot of contentment I hear.

 

No matter what spiritual path I dip my toe in, this point pops up to be quite universal.

[Fa Xin]

Perhaps "guilty of nothing" means in this case not crimes per say, but rather the little mundane things we all beat ourselves up over.

 

That's how I took it anyway.

[Marblehead]

Ummm...

 

Curiously, roger's post doesn't contain the word "intent."

 

I can't agree with you, Marblehead, because of the word "butterscotch."

 

Thank you for misunderstanding me.

[Brian]

Thank you for misunderstanding me.

Just one of the many services I offer.

[Marblehead]

If no one is guilty then no one has to take responsibility for their thoughts, words, and deeds. 

 

Rape the thirteen year old girl.  You are not guilty of any wrong-doing,

 

Murder someone for twenty dollars so you can buy some drugs and get high.

 

Oh!, you are not guilty of any wrong-doing.  Society corrupted you and it is society that is guilty.

 

And besides, the devil made me do it.

 

Intent:  if one has caused harm to another with intent to cause harm they are guilty as shit.

 

Like not too long ago parents were told to let their kids do whatever they wanted to do.  Bullshit.

 

If you have a functioning brain and have intentionally caused harm to others then you are guilty as shit.

[Marblehead]

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/intent

 

Yes, that is what makes the difference between guilty and not guilty.

[Marblehead]

We all and each hold the responsibility for our thoughts, words, and deeds.  If any of us has caused harm to another then we are guilty of having caused harm to another.

 

Remember "free will".  We have choices.  We can intentionally harm others or we can intentionally help others.  We would bear the responsibility for either.  Guilty as charged.

[liminal_luke]

You tell `em Marblehead!

 

Oftentimes people explain away bad behavior saying that a person grew up in difficult circumstances, was themselves abused, etc.  I`m quite partial to these kind of explanations myself and consider them "mitigating circumstances." 

 

Nevertheless, I do believe in bad seeds: some people are just plain born bad.  Not all murderers, to use the most extreme example, had deprived abusive childhoods. As a society we like to blame the parents, but it`s just not always the case that parents deserve our negative judgments. Some babies are little sociopaths from the get-go.  

Edited January 18, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Marblehead]

So many truths there.  I will let them stand without comment.

[roger]

Here's the thing.

 

There's the relative and the absolute.

 

You might say that "relatively speaking," people can be guilty, and to varying degrees.

 

In the absolute sense, we're all innocent and perfect.

 

Everything is happening perfectly, and lack of love is an illusion.

 

In the relative, "bad" exists, and there are consequenses to our choices.

 

The distinction between the relative and the absolute is the factor that makes many of the replies to my OP make sense.

[dwai]

We all and each hold the responsibility for our thoughts, words, and deeds. If any of us has caused harm to another then we are guilty of having caused harm to another.

 

Remember "free will". We have choices. We can intentionally harm others or we can intentionally help others. We would bear the responsibility for either. Guilty as charged.

There is no free will. That is part of our collective delusion

[liminal_luke]

Here's the thing.

 

There's the relative and the absolute.

 

You might say that "relatively speaking," people can be guilty, and to varying degrees.

 

In the absolute sense, we're all innocent and perfect.

 

Everything is happening perfectly, and lack of love is an illusion.

 

In the relative, "bad" exists, and there are consequenses to our choices.

 

The distinction between the relative and the absolute is the factor that makes many of the replies to my OP make sense.

 

I`m not much in touch with that absolute level, but I think you may be onto something here.  On that level were all innocent and perfect as you say -- one of us is even spotless.

[Aetherous]

Everyone has Buddha nature.

No one is innocent.

Some are guilty.

[Astral Monk]

We all and each hold the responsibility for our thoughts, words, and deeds.  If any of us has caused harm to another then we are guilty of having caused harm to another.

 

Remember "free will".  We have choices.  We can intentionally harm others or we can intentionally help others.  We would bear the responsibility for either.  Guilty as charged.

 

Yes..I remember 'free will'..as in that vacuous concept that no philosopher in 2000+ years has been able to satisfactorily demonstrate as having real existence, lol.

 

Having real 'free will' means being able to be a 'first cause' in the universe--a cause that is absolutely not caused or connected to any previous set of causes, hence, is not part of the existing causal stream. This is the ONLY way that real responsibility can be conferred--to First Causes, because they are Necessary Causes. All other events in a causal stream are Proximate causes, or we might think of them as continuing the wave, but never starting it.

 

We do not spring into existence from nothing. In fact, nothing in our experience does, including our intentions and will power. No one will ever be able to find an example of an act they performed that came into being without being connected to everything that came before in their lives--every little experiential detail, and then further and further until the whole universe to the beginning of time is included. There is no stopping the causal connection wave. That is the reason why 'responsibility' is a false concept, and isnt 'real' in any ontological sense. Like the cave of diamonds, the light touches every corner, binding all together in one single manifold.

 

Rather than accepting this, and the absolute reality of relativity, we make use of concepts like 'responsibility' for practical and selfish social purposes--lock up 'evil doers' and so on. Doesnt mean we are correct or even understand the meaning of the concept we employ. Its a natural outcome of human thought.

 

I would say this though--that there might be a possibility of real true spontaneous action arising at the highest levels of cultivation. The sage, a friend of emptyness, might find a state akin to the original spark that kickstarts a universe unfolding. Maybe. But lets face it, such creatures are few and far between, truly rare and, relatively speaking, rather wonderful beings. They make a special case.

 

For the rest of us, there is pretty much zero chance that anything we do is actually truly spontaneous in the sense of being a First Cause. That decision to murder someone doesnt just appear out of thin air. It is the consequence of a whole lifetime of previous experiences and their natural outcome in that person.

 

8)

[Astral Monk]

Here's the thing.

 

There's the relative and the absolute.

 

You might say that "relatively speaking," people can be guilty, and to varying degrees.

 

In the absolute sense, we're all innocent and perfect.

 

Everything is happening perfectly, and lack of love is an illusion.

 

In the relative, "bad" exists, and there are consequenses to our choices.

 

The distinction between the relative and the absolute is the factor that makes many of the replies to my OP make sense.

 

Relatively speaking, the causal connections reach far beyond our limited individual actions. We literally have to arbitrarily cut off the connections and limit them to the range of one person's actions. But that isolation is entirely artificial, which is why 'responsibility' is nothing more than a practical excuse to administer punishments, not a recognition about the true nature of the reality we are living in.

 

Its like standing on a beach in the water and looking down at your feet, purposefully ignoring the rest of the ocean, and imagining the water lapping your toes is doing so of its own accord and not as the result of the movement of the entire ocean behind it, which we are pretending doesnt exist. And when you step back and realize there is no true separation between ocean and sky, nor ocean, sky, and man, then youre in a real pickle, because all those notions of responsibility fall away as utter illusions!

 

8)

[Marblehead]

There is no free will. That is part of our collective delusion

 

You know I'm not buying that.  You have never made a single decision for me.  I have made them all on my own.

[Marblehead]

Yes..I remember 'free will'..as in that vacuous concept that no philosopher in 2000+ years has been able to satisfactorily demonstrate as having real existence, lol.

 

 

You seem to have over-looked Nietzsche.