Why must the Dao De Jhing be translated right?

Stosh · January 20, 2017

It would be very interesting to see if y'all together could negotiate , for each chapter , a single summary translation that y'all could agree contained the essence of the subjects sentiment rather than just have everyone state their own interpretation which didn't coincide with the others. To come to an accord for each portion ,since the virtue of discussion , if it has any , is not in remaining obstinate with heels dug in yet deeper , but to get to the soul of it.

cheya · January 20, 2017

I do kinda like Starr...

but fine to be looking on my own...

Edited January 20, 2017 by cheya

awaken · January 20, 2017

I read these version of the first chapter

No one talk about the meaning of 噭，徼，竅

常有欲，以觀其徼。

河上公章句第一

徼，歸也。常有欲之人可以觀世俗之所歸趣也。

○徼，音叫，又古吊反，即竅字。

In 河上公章句 version, he think 徼 should be 竅

There is a very important 竅 in daoist cultivation, 玄關一竅

玄關一竅 is mentioned in chapter 6, too.

This chapter mention about two important stages of cultivation , 竅 and Hun dun.

Hun dun, no intention, 無欲，no self 無我, is Ying

玄關竅，the entrance of wonder, 有欲 with intention, 有我 with the existing of self, is Yang

Experience.......

Not easy to write

Unless you can practice wu Wei like me

After you spent many years in wu Wei

You can be very easy to find that all your cultivation just separate into two stages

Yang and Ying

When Yang, 玄關 is always there

When Ying, Hun dun is always there

No doubts

Very clear

Edited January 20, 2017 by awaken

flowing hands · January 20, 2017

I am personally interested in perspectives and how we all read into things differing meanings according to our experience etc. So I am interested in seeing what people see in the same lines of each translator.

Stosh · January 20, 2017

I am personally interested in perspectives and how we all read into things differing meanings according to our experience etc. So I am interested in seeing what people see in the same lines of each translator.

Understood, I was just thinking that since you read many versions,perhaps coming to a more thorough enriched view , and thus perhaps cancelled out some of the personal biases , which any individual translator cant help but impart.... that this same potential for improvement could be imparted to the thread. I'd have liked to see that result , But its your thing and Im Ok with looking on.

Mig · January 20, 2017

Understood, I was just thinking that since you read many versions,perhaps coming to a more thorough enriched view , and thus perhaps cancelled out some of the personal biases , which any individual translator cant help but impart.... that this same potential for improvement could be imparted to the thread. I'd have liked to see that result , But its your thing and Im Ok with looking on.

Is this about to find out what English translations fits you well? Is that the style of each translation you want show it resonates better to you? I am a beginner in reading the DDJ and I understand some classical Chinese as I read each line so bear with me. The translations that has helped me to understand better are the ones with commentaries instead of recycled translations. My goal is to understand the original text, its grammar and its cultural context. Maybe someone can help me understand.

dawei · January 21, 2017

It would be very interesting to see if y'all together could negotiate , for each chapter , a single summary translation that y'all could agree contained the essence of the subjects sentiment rather than just have everyone state their own interpretation which didn't coincide with the others.

I think so too as a free-for-all interpretation, line by line would be very hard to ultimately lead to a single summary... but maybe we can still attempt that... and it may just be in the sense that folks present their own summary at times.

Part of the problem as someone mentioned was how we view the text and it can be based on our philosophical vs religious vs practice perspective we read and grasp.

I think a challenge but seems worth the process.

I do kinda like Starr...

Maybe I'll sneak it in but don't tell anyone :rolleyes:

I read these version of the first chapter

No one talk about the meaning of 噭，徼，竅

We didn't start yet

I'm not sure we'll be comparing versions like Heshang Gong vs Wang Bi that much. We may need to try and accept the Received version of Wang Bi (which I am loath to do on some level as I think it has lots of issues)... but I think we may be looking at the meaning Laozi wants to share more than what character was correct. We will likely adjust as we go.

I am personally interested in perspectives and how we all read into things differing meanings according to our experience etc. So I am interested in seeing what people see in the same lines of each translator.

I think that is fine but with lots of voices it may be a little hard to keep organized enough to keep folks engaged and interested... but I'm willing to help.

Is this about to find out what English translations fits you well? Is that the style of each translation you want show it resonates better to you? I am a beginner in reading the DDJ and I understand some classical Chinese as I read each line so bear with me. The translations that has helped me to understand better are the ones with commentaries instead of recycled translations. My goal is to understand the original text, its grammar and its cultural context. Maybe someone can help me understand.

We did this before.... See the topics that start [TTC Study]. I think it will be best to see how this one unfolds and use the previous topics as part of your research... You could then raise issues in those previous ones.

I'm not personally interested to drive and control this but I see the organizational challenge to doing this at a slightly higher level than the previous study. I suspect this study is relying less on what character is the exact correct one, although there could be some interjection, it is just not the focus.

I'm thinking we do this study as: [DDJ Meaning] Chapter XX...

Do we want to really post all 4 translations in the first post? the only options i see would be to use links to a chapter... or maybe we paste them here in another topic of "translations" in case the links don't exist in the future.

dawei · January 21, 2017

FYI: I think this is considered another 'popular' translation... I'll add that to my original list post.

Stephen Mitchell, 1991

Stosh · January 21, 2017

Is this about to find out what English translations fits you well? Is that the style of each translation you want show it resonates better to you? I am a beginner in reading the DDJ and I understand some classical Chinese as I read each line so bear with me. The translations that has helped me to understand better are the ones with commentaries instead of recycled translations. My goal is to understand the original text, its grammar and its cultural context. Maybe someone can help me understand.

Um, Theres many many translations, and one can multiply that number by the number of people willing to read more than just one,, and you get a huge tally of opinions... We each stand on a podium and speak our understanding, which nobody else closely agrees with. There are some highly intelligent and knowledgeable people on here , and they could ,,IMO ,, with ahuge amount of work, delineate an unprecedentedly encompassing and unifying translation. In a line by line negotiated discussion they would be exposed to everyone elses views, and in the end all us readers could finally read a presentation that we could feel embraced the basic sentiments of the texts which spoke to all of us, having these guys representing the various ..factions.

Its F H,'s thing though, and not my place to push the idea.

Geof Nanto · January 30, 2017

For me, the beauty of the Daodejing is that it lies coiled like a dragon in the liminal space between yin (unnameable mystery) and yang (meaning that’s expressible in words). Hence it’s meaning is intentionally fluid; its significance will always differ from person to person as well as according to the dominant worldviews of any particular time.

From Red Pine….

“But trying to force the Taoteching into the categories of modern discourse not only distorts the Taoteching but also treats the traditions that later Taoists have associated with the text as irrelevant and misguided. Meanwhile, the Taoteching continues to inspire millions of Chinese as a spiritual text. And I have tried to present it in that dark light. The words of philosophers fail here. If words are of any use at all, they are the words of the poet. For poetry has the ability to point us toward the truth then stand aside, while prose stands in the doorway relating all the wonders on the other side but rarely lets us pass.

Although I haven't attempted to reproduce Lao-tzu's poetic devices (Hsu Yungchang identifies twenty-eight different kinds of rhyme), I have tried to convey the poetic feel with which he strings together images for our breath and spirit, but not necessarily our minds. For the Taoteching is one long poem written in praise of something we cannot name, much less imagine.”

From David Hinton…..

“And perhaps the most impressive aspect of Lao Tzu's power as a poet is how his poetic strategies induce this meditative experience in the reader. Mysterious utterances, misty terminology, fragmentary collage form with open and enigmatic juxtapositions, an abounding ambiguity that exploits the uncertainty inherent to the syntax and semantics of ancient Chinese – these surprisingly modern strategies all keep the poetry as close as possible to the undifferentiated primal mystery of Way, forcing the reader to participate in the generative emptiness at the source of language, mind, and all heaven and earth.”

dawei · January 31, 2017

From David Hinton…..

“And perhaps the most impressive aspect of Lao Tzu's power as a poet is how his poetic strategies induce this meditative experience in the reader. Mysterious utterances, misty terminology, fragmentary collage form with open and enigmatic juxtapositions, an abounding ambiguity that exploits the uncertainty inherent to the syntax and semantics of ancient Chinese – these surprisingly modern strategies all keep the poetry as close as possible to the undifferentiated primal mystery of Way, forcing the reader to participate in the generative emptiness at the source of language, mind, and all heaven and earth.”

OMG.... someone quoted HInton

I first meet his chinese poetry translations and then have read his Laozi... the most terse of translations... at times hard to absorb unless you can accept fewer words. At least here, in commentary and explanation, he uses more words

Geof Nanto · February 4, 2017

For me personally, the brief comments and opinions expressed within our Dao Bums discussion format can only ever scratch the surface of a complex topic such as Daodejing interpretation. These discussions however often serve the vital purpose of stirring my curiosity towards further research. The best overview I’ve come across of the Daodejing and its tradition is this essay by Alan Chan. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants nuanced insight into the vast body of commentary that this short text has inspired since it was written over 2000 years ago. In fact, I'd call it essential reading.

flowing hands · February 18, 2017

The main reason why I wanted to start this thread is to highlight that there is enormous difficulty in firstly the varying translations, the translators background and their own perspectives and of course our own understanding of those words.

This is very important. We must remember that Lao Tzu was on his 'Xian Dao' path; his understanding was that of an enlightened person. He said many things from his own perspective and this perspective was from his understanding of Dao xin and the processes involved. If a translation does not come from this very special perspective and that the characters/pictograms are not the same as the original or shortened by copyists, we already have a massive misunderstanding conveyed to be misunderstood by others who then read them.

This is a great problem which I aimed to relieve to some extent.

Mig · March 9, 2017

As translation goes, I find some closer to the original and little information about the cultural impact that still in people's lives, language and traditions. Such information usually is omitted and then we get caught in our way of seeing stuff and making a new spiritual way in understanding Daoism. As much as we discuss, it seems to me that there is the practicality of each chapter especially chapter 1 to use it in daily life and embrace other chapters. Furthermore, I haven't hear anything about the Chinese scholars commentaries in which at least maybe 64 are the best. (cf. The Way of Lao-Tzu, Wing-tsit Chan).