[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 1

[dawei]

As this is a different thread let me give you my thoughts on the first verse as it was put there.

 

When one wants to describe how the world is and how it is going about its processes, it is impossible to describe this ever evolving process. But it has a fundamental core that drives all things that is known and not known. we can only feel by using our hearts, the one thing that drives all of us and that which has made us. We can see the very thing that this has created. Emptying the mind and purifying the soul will allow us to understand the deep mystery. The source of all life dwells within; it is manifest and empty, a true path to unlock the mysteries of life.

 

This chapter is eluding to internal alchemy and self cultivation

 

two questions:

 

1. you talk of the process... i get that as Dao... and you then talk of heart.  is feel by using our hearts what you have previously mentioned as xin dao ?    would you then mean 'a heart aligned with dao'?

 

2. Emptying the mind and purifying the soul...  an easy seven words but the path or process of that is the devil of the details.  i personally believe in karmic destiny and each person's path is defined in a way... but what is your point here?

[awaken]

Could you give an idea the way you cultivate it?

Yes

 

Wu wei

 

TTC ch 2

Edited January 29, 2017 by awaken

[awaken]

。是以聖人處無為之事，行不言之教；萬物作焉而不辭，生而不有，為而不恃，功成而弗居。

 

TTC ch 2

 

Wu Wei --> everything is spontaneous without dispute

 

Everyone is always searching some secret methods to reach dao.

 

Why don't you believe wu Wei is the secret method?

 

People like to control everything.

 

Using some methods to reach a target you want.

 

Do you see something wrong in this concept?

 

You are reading TTC and searching a secret method at the same time.

 

Don't you feel you are really splitting?

 

 

 

Ok.

 

You might say, I am sitting here and do nothing, but nothing still happen.

 

Actually, you are not do nothing.

 

You are always "thinking"

 

Your focus is the source of energy.

 

When you are thinking, you are losing your energy, but you don't aware anything lost, you think you are doing nothing.

 

 

 

 

So , hundreds of secret methods are there. Fool your focus. Let your focus don't waste on thinking.

 

Why do we use these secret methods to fool our focus?

 

Why don't we just let our focus come back and not let it waste in the thinking?

 

 

 

Of course, we can.

 

We don't need any secret methods to fool ourselves.

 

We can take our focus back.

 

How?

 

Back to where?

 

Ok. Now it seems like a Zhang Zong problem, right?

 

 

 

 

谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤

 

TTC ch 6

 

The root of the world

 

Root

 

Back to root

 

What is the root?

 

TTC tries to describe what is the root

 

玄牝之門

 

The door of Xiuan Pin

 

Xiuan guan玄關

 

 

 

So Xiuan Guan is the door of root

 

 

 

 

But, we can see the daoist cultivation is totally twisted in the world.

 

The secret methods of cultivating Qi become the main roles of daoist cultivation.

 

We lost our "true" face for chasing a "true" teacher and a lot of secret methods.

Edited January 29, 2017 by awaken

[flowing hands]

two questions:

 

1. you talk of the process... i get that as Dao... and you then talk of heart.  is feel by using our hearts what you have previously mentioned as xin dao ?    would you then mean 'a heart aligned with dao'?

 

2. Emptying the mind and purifying the soul...  an easy seven words but the path or process of that is the devil of the details.  i personally believe in karmic destiny and each person's path is defined in a way... but what is your point here?

 

Now I've got to say, a Daoist master understands things in a different way because of the processes and techniques that they have been taught, especially if it comes from the divine. Understanding of the words of Lei Erh comes directly in this process. How to teach someone else an understanding is difficult without them first going through those processes. It is very easy to say words, but real meaning of those words are within the processes and then it is understood. One cannot really understand the words of Lei Erh until one has gone through this, otherwise it is just words and philosophy, as it so misunderstood by non Daoist masters translations. In the end it all comes to the same thing, most religions hide all the true meaning and understanding in 'God' etc. etc. Or they are simply money making control freaks.

 

My point is easy; get yourself into the process, into the the way of self cultivation and one day true understanding will dawn on that person, because it is their time. I could talk about the processes, describe Dao xin till I was exhuasted, but if it has not yet been realized, its a waste of time.

[dawei]

How to teach someone else an understanding is difficult without them first going through those processes. It is very easy to say words, but real meaning of those words are within the processes and then it is understood. 

 

this is very well said... and why teaching is a gift on some level... cuz the teacher accepts that words will not completely work but are a kind of necessary evil (ie: distraction or counter to learning via the process).

 

Sometimes when I am asked a question about how something works... I Just say... let's go there and experience it.  If you don't experience it then no words will really explain it anyways...

 

so can we summarize chapter 1 in a sentence or two?

[dawei]

Re-reading the posts, here are the ones that stand out to me...  I have paraphrased them so if i twisted your meaning, apologies.

 

BTW: I like Red Pine's notes so encourage such extra info

 

 

Meaning of Chapter 1:

 

1. Realization of Tao and all its existing forms are two states (of mind) that are just the same thing. 

The difference is just perception/relative clarity of mind.

 

2. The source of all life dwells within; it is manifest and empty, a true path to unlock the mysteries of life.  

get yourself into the process, into the the way of self cultivation and one day true understanding will dawn on that person, because it is their time.

 

3. two states of cultivation that represent the entrance (manifest) and remarkableness (primordial) of Dao.

 

4. Symbolizes the nameless Dao and conceptual reality. 

[Kara_mia]

 

Re-reading the posts, here are the ones that stand out to me...  I have paraphrased them so if i twisted your meaning, apologies.

 

BTW: I like Red Pine's notes so encourage such extra info

 

 

Meaning of Chapter 1:

 

1. Realization of Tao and all its existing forms are two states (of mind) that are just the same thing. 

The difference is just perception/relative clarity of mind.

 

2. The source of all life dwells within; it is manifest and empty, a true path to unlock the mysteries of life.  

get yourself into the process, into the the way of self cultivation and one day true understanding will dawn on that person, because it is their time.

 

3. two states of cultivation that represent the entrance (manifest) and remarkableness (primordial) of Dao.

 

4. Symbolizes the nameless Dao and conceptual reality. 

 

 

Thank you for the interesting thoughts!

I have a question to all - what is "enduring and unchanging name"? Is it possible to give an example of such name?

[Geof Nanto]

I like Dawei's summary too. Dawei's other insight that Laozi's message is all here in verse one in seed form is echoed back through the centuries with, for instance, this comment by Ming dynasty Zen practitioner Deqing: "Laozi's philosophy is all here. The remaining five thousand words only expand on this verse." 

 

As to your question: what is "enduring and unchanging name"? Is it possible to give an example of such name? The intent of these first lines of chapter one is to illustrate that no name can name the Dao, indeed all names are only arbitrary symbols for something else. As Red Pine states:  "During Lao-tzu's day, philosophers were concerned with the correspondence, or lack of it, between name and reality. The things we distinguish as real change, while their names do not. How then can reality be known through names?"

[Marblehead]

Or even how can reality be known through only words?  We have to live it to be able to more deeply understand it.

 

As Chuang Tzu said, "Once the concept has been grasped, the words can be forgotten."

 

Same with names.  They hold no significance except to those who already have grasped the concept.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Marblehead

[Geof Nanto]

Perhaps eventually even the concepts seem like a child's game of pretense?.......

 

 

The ones on the left symbolise the nameless Dao; the little one on the right the named (conceptual reality). 

 

 

 

 

 

Also see http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/37940-idea-traps/?p=615982

Edited February 5, 2017 by Yueya

[Stosh]

Thank you for the interesting thoughts!

I have a question to all - what is "enduring and unchanging name"? Is it possible to give an example of such name?

All.

[Kara_mia]

Or even how can reality be known through only words?  We have to live it to be able to more deeply understand it.

 

As Chuang Tzu said, "Once the concept has been grasped, the words can be forgotten."

 

Same with names.  They hold no significance except to those who already have grasped the concept.

 

I agree. I believe that there can be no enduring and unchanging name - neither in the manifested, no in the ideal world. Moreover, only changes are enduring. Since the name should be given by someone, then enduring and unchanging name should be given by someone who is enduring and unchanging himself (herself). And for the one enduring and unchanging him/herself words can be forgotten as was said by Chuang Tzu.  

[Kara_mia]

In my opinion, "enduring and unchanging" with regard to Dao, and in general, meaning of the 1st chapter is that Dao is inconstant since practice depends on stage of life, i.e. at what stage the person commences his/her practice.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Kara_mia

[Stosh]

Well I guess that serves me appropriately for answering someones direct question, I't a habit I'll have to give up. 

[Marblehead]

Well I guess that serves me appropriately for answering someones direct question, I't a habit I'll have to give up. 

But your answer was too short.  You are supposed to use many words so that the reader is totally confused after reading.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

Y'mean like, When is a white horse ,not a horse? ,, When it's white! ,

[Mig]

Or even how can reality be known through only words?  We have to live it to be able to more deeply understand it.

 

As Chuang Tzu said, "Once the concept has been grasped, the words can be forgotten."

 

Same with names.  They hold no significance except to those who already have grasped the concept.

Don't know if the concept word is the right translation. IMHO as you travel around the world and being exposed to languages it is not about the concept but the experience you live using those words. If I haven't experience, I can only know the word by concept but would have never experienced so I can not really relate with the right word at the right situation.

[Marblehead]

I absolutely agree Mig.

 

I stopped short with just the understanding of the concept.  From your perspective, we can have an experience then try to put it into words and establish the concept.  Or maybe even first the concept is grasped and then we put it into words.

 

But bottom lline, you are correct, having the experiences is called living.  We don't even need to conceptualize the experience or put it into words.  And really, some experiences just cannot be put to words.

[Stosh]

 Geometry , math, groupings , nouns , , all abstractions. The specifics of what is the concrete embodiment of the abstraction is irrelevant. They are fabrications of mind, perfect and unchanging. In the west this subject was broached differently, and the principles of physics or math etc, were fancied the expressions "mind of God". 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Stosh

[timpani]

On 1/21/2017 at 6:12 PM, dawei said:

 

Legge
The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao.

 

DC. Lau
The way that can be spoken of 
Is not the constant way; 

 

Feng/English

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. 

 

Bill Porter (Red Pine)

1996

The way that becomes a way is not the Immortal Way

 

2009

The way that becomes a way

is not the Immortal Way

 

Jonathan Star
A way that can be walked
is not The Way
 

 

 

Just looking at the first line...

"The way that can be spoken of" and the "Tao that can be told" land in my ears like slightly missed notes.  

 

On the other hand...

"The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao." and

"The way that becomes a way is not the Immortal Way"

 

These words resonate in me. 

 

In Legge's translation: "The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao."  Laozi is acknowledging our humanity and the limitations of this world.  He's telling me that I can do my best to follow the way, but I'm not quite going to be on the centerline all the time.  Then he gives clues about what the centerline feels like and what the edges feel like:

"Always without desire we must be found, 
If its deep mystery we would sound; 
But if desire always within us be, 
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see."

 

Other chapters, like chapter 18, give clues about our state of affairs when the way is lost.

 

Red Pine's translation is equally resonant:  "The way that becomes a way is not the Immortal Way."  Here Laozi is telling me that prescriptions don't work.  There isn't any set recipe of actions or inaction that will keep me on the Way.  I kind of have to follow my nose, follow his clues, and trust.

[dawei]

Why is walked/trodden often used as well as spoken?

 

Dao Ke Dao, Fei Chang Dao (Chang was a later substitute for Heng in the original; their is a taboo issue that an Emperor's name cannot be in texts, so Heng was replaced with Chang... thus Eternal-Heng was replaced with Constant-Chang... and Chang slowly took over the meaning of eternal.

 

Dao [Dao], Ke Dao [Spoken Dao], Fei Chang Dao [Not constant/eternal Dao]

 

Dao Ke [Dao spoken, manifest], Dao Fei [Dao no-thing], Chang/Heng Dao [constant/eternal Dao]

 

Dao Ke Dao [Dao as a spoken Dao], Fei Chang/Heng Dao [not a constant/eternal Dao]

 

Where ever you put the comma, (ancient texts had no comma breaks), it really says the same thing.

 

The reason I prefer spoken against Trodden is that the later parts talk of two sides of Dao... Manifest (being) vs Mystery (non-being). 

 

 

[timpani]

On 2/18/2019 at 10:20 PM, dawei said:

The reason I prefer spoken against Trodden is that the later parts talk of two sides of Dao... Manifest (being) vs Mystery (non-being). 

I've begun to appreciate this translation a lot more over the past few days.  I liked "trodden" because it felt unmoored, and that felt right in so many ways.

 

But...

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"

-William Shakespeare

🙂

 

I wonder if this first line is referring in any way to magical thinking - like the belief that you can summon a being by its name...  Saying that you can't summon the Dao...  You can't know it by its name.

[dawei]

On 2/25/2019 at 9:05 AM, timpani said:

I've begun to appreciate this translation a lot more over the past few days.  I liked "trodden" because it felt unmoored, and that felt right in so many ways.

 

But...

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"

-William Shakespeare

🙂

 

I wonder if this first line is referring in any way to magical thinking - like the belief that you can summon a being by its name...  Saying that you can't summon the Dao...  You can't know it by its name.

 

Trodden does work as 'Way' means path... ergo, to walk the path [of the Great Way].    So in the opening lines, it is juxtaposed with the idea that as a name (whether spoken or trodden), it is not the eternal Way/Dao.

 

I like the logical unfolding of Spoken because 'Ke Dao' means spoken and then the second line reminds us that 'names' are not eternal.

 

Later, we get manifest (world of names) and mystery/primordial (without names).

 

But I'm not trying to dissuade embracing Trodden but hope to help deepen one's choice on some level.

[whitesilk]

On 2/25/2019 at 8:05 AM, timpani said:

I wonder if this first line is referring in any way to magical thinking - like the belief that you can summon a being by its name...  Saying that you can't summon the Dao...  You can't know it by its name.

 

exactly, the Way is formless even in terminology.

 

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/895072-the-formless-way-we-look-at-it-and-do-not

[whitesilk]

@timpani, I prefer to call the Way 'abstractly real.'