Mair 5:1

[Marblehead]

There was a man of Lu, Princely Nag, who had been mutilated by having one of his feet cut off, yet those who followed him in his wanderings were as numerous as the followers of Confucius.  Ch'ang Chi {{Supposedly a disciple of Confucius, his name may be interpreted as "Constant Season".}} inquired of Confucius, "Princely Nag has had one of his feet cut off, yet those who follow him in his wanderings divide up half the state of Lu with you, master.  He neither teaches when standing nor discourses when sitting.  Yet those who go to him empty come back full.  Is there truly a 'doctrine without words,' a formless mental accomplishment?  What kind of person is he?"

 

"Sir," said Confucius, "he is a sage.  It's simply because I'm a latecomer that I haven't yet gone over to him.  I myself would take him as my teacher, so why shouldn't those who are unequal to me?  Why stop with just the state of Lu?  I would lead the whole of the empire to follow him."

 

"Though he has been mutilated," said Ch'ang Chi, "he lords it over you.  How different he must be from the ordinary person.  If this be so, what is special about the way he uses his mind?"

 

"Life and death are of great moment;" said Confucius, "but he is able to avoid their transformations.  Though heaven may collapse and earth overturn, he would not be lost in their wake.  Settled in nonreliance, he is unmoved by the changes in things.  He recognizes that evolution is the destiny of things and thereby maintains what is essential."

 

"What do you mean?" asked Ch'ang Chi.

 

"If one sees things from the viewpoint of the differences," said Confucius, "the liver and the gallbladder are as distant as Ch'u is from Viet.  If one sees things from the viewpoint of their similarities, the myriad things are all one.  He who realizes this is unaware of the attractions of the senses but lets his mind wander instead in the harmony of integrity.  He sees what bespeaks the identity of things instead of what bespeaks their loss.  He sees the loss of his foot as the sloughing off of a clump of earth."

 

"In his self-cultivation," said Ch'ang Chi, "through knowledge he attains mind, and through mind he attains eternal mind.  Why, then, do things gather about him?"

 

"People cannot see their reflections in running water," said Confucius, "but in still water they can.  Only stillness can still the hosts who seek stillness.  Of those who receive their destiny from earth, only the pine and the arborvitae are correct - green summer and winter.  Of those who received their destiny from heaven, only Yao and Shun were correct - at the head of the ten thousand things.  Fortunately, they could correct their own lives and thereby correct a host of lives.  The proof of the preservation of primal strength is realized in fearlessness.  A single courageous warrior will heroically plunge into a mighty army.  If a man who seeks fame can do this out of personal ambition, how much more so should one who takes heaven and earth as his palace and the myriad things as his treasury, his trunk and limbs as a mere lodging, his senses as phenomena; who treats as a whole all that knowledge knows; and whose mind never dies!  He would simply pick a day and ascend to the heights.  People may follow him, but how would he be willing to make such things his business?"

[oak]

Unlike with the DDJ, with which I enjoy the book as a whole, chuang tzu''s compilation doesn't speak to me the same way. However,  there are chapters such as this one that just make me Wow  ! The beauty and deepness...

 

Thank you Marblehead

[Taoist Texts]

 whose mind never dies!  He would simply pick a day and ascend to the heights.  

 

 

So ZZ believes in  immortality of the soul?

[Marblehead]

So ZZ believes in  immortality of the soul?

 

I knew that question would arise eventually.  I don't think he ever states definitively if he does or not.  He was a spiritual person.  That should be a given.  He wondered about a lot of things associated with spirituality.  He spoke with dead people as if they could hear him and then he dreamed that they responded to his questions.

 

I will leave it to others to arrive at their own understandings regarding this.

[Taoist Texts]

  He spoke with dead people as if they could hear him and then he dreamed that they responded to his questions. 

If i had dreams like that i would wake up screaming

[dawei]

So ZZ believes in  immortality of the soul?

 

Isn't it Confucius talking?  If so, then you mean he quotes Confucius here to agree with him (but does he quote him to disagree too).

 

It is story telling in part.  If we take the comment on the mind never dies then we must also take the parallel structure of comments:

 

1. A single courageous warrior will heroically plunge into a mighty army.  

2. If a man who seeks fame can do this out of personal ambition, how much more so should one who takes heaven and earth as his palace

3. and the myriad things as his treasury,

4. his trunk and limbs as a mere lodging,

5. his senses as phenomena;

6. who treats as a whole all that knowledge knows;

7. and whose mind never dies! 

8. He would simply pick a day and ascend to the heights.

 

I cannot see asking about any one of these alone without considering the entire basket of hyperbole.

[Marblehead]

Isn't it Confucius talking?  

 

This is very important.  Whenever he has Confucius saying something there will always be at least two different perspectives from which we must view what is being said.

 

First, is Chuang Tzu honestly presenting Confucius' views?  Is Chuang Tzu agreeing with Confucius or is he disagreeing?