Paul Hedderman: What's looking is what you are looking for

[johndoe2012]

[SeekerOfHealing]

Those views and speculations can create much suffering and do not lead to ultimate realization. Just entertainment for restless mind.

 

All those views which do not get you enlighten you can learn in "Brahmajāla Sutta" when almost all modern "teachers" teach to other people via youtube etc.

 

"What is looking is what you are looking for" - no, what people looking for is cessation of suffering which only comes with cessation of hindrances. So you are not looking for yourself, you looking for freedom from yourself as accumulation of suffering.

 

(This is general discussion, if it would be in hindu one I would not post here my critique of such views)

Edited January 24, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[johndoe2012]

Did you see the video or are you commenting on the title?

[silent thunder]

succinct and poignant... thanks for sharing.

[dwai]

"What is looking is what you are looking for" - no, what people looking for is cessation of suffering which only comes with cessation of hindrances. So you are not looking for yourself, you looking for freedom from yourself as accumulation of suffering.

 

(This is general discussion, if it would be in hindu one I would not post here my critique of such views)

There is a big misconception about what the "Hindu" view is. Often this mistaken position ascribed to "Hindu" thought is juxtaposed with the "Buddhist" view and then vigorously debated (which is also equally pointless mental acrobatics)...

 

First, that which is "looking" is a primordial emptiness that is full of potentiality. When the seeker realizes this, the clinging and aversion to poles (good, bad; right, wrong; pain, pleasure...etc etc) disappear. In this absence of positions is freedom. This is the Advaita Hindu view (Vedanta). There are different nuances in different traditions - shaivism or Vedanta, Tantra etc. But end goal is cessation of suffering.

 

This is not the Dvaita (dualistic view), where grace of the deity provides a "state" of blissful union or subservience...(ultimately none other than that primordial emptiness - who is our very own Self, and ever present as the timeless presence). The dualist is not ready to forsake experience, whereas the nondualist knows that the experience is nothing but a taste of the infinity that he/she already is.

 

So which strawman do you want to tear down? Better to stick with practice...IMHO

Edited January 25, 2017 by dwai

[SeekerOfHealing]

Shunya or emptiness is one and only Buddhist realization which never appeared in any teachings before Buddha. 

 

What is seeing are your eyes not any primordial emptiness. Consciousness is not primordial and it's not empty. etc. those all are just speculations you do not really know but follow up ideas which fits you and other people.  

Edited January 25, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[dwai]

Shunya or emptiness is one and only Buddhist realization which never appeared in any teachings before Buddha. 

 

What is seeing are your eyes not any primordial emptiness. Consciousness is not primordial and it's not empty. etc. those all are just speculations you do not really know but follow up ideas which fits you and other people.  

 

There is no speculation in direct experience. Only those who have not experienced tend to speculate.

[silent thunder]

"absolute certainty is the realm of the arrogant, ignorant... of that, I'm absolutely certain."  ~ Creighton Larson

[Bindi]

There is a big misconception about what the "Hindu" view is. Often this mistaken position ascribed to "Hindu" thought is juxtaposed with the "Buddhist" view and then vigorously debated (which is also equally pointless mental acrobatics)...

 

First, that which is "looking" is a primordial emptiness that is full of potentiality. When the seeker realizes this, the clinging and aversion to poles (good, bad; right, wrong; pain, pleasure...etc etc) disappear. In this absence of positions is freedom. This is the Advaita Hindu view (Vedanta). There are different nuances in different traditions - shaivism or Vedanta, Tantra etc. But end goal is cessation of suffering.

 

This is not the Dvaita (dualistic view), where grace of the deity provides a "state" of blissful union or subservience...(ultimately none other than that primordial emptiness - who is our very own Self, and ever present as the timeless presence). The dualist is not ready to forsake experience, whereas the nondualist knows that the experience is nothing but a taste of the infinity that he/she already is.

 

So which strawman do you want to tear down? Better to stick with practice...IMHO

 

Isn't 'that which is looking' the seeker, ie. the false ego-self?

[dwai]

Isn't 'that which is looking' the seeker, ie. the false ego-self?

That which is looking is the eternal witness...the "I Am". The seeker is the mind, conditioned and limited. The "I Am" is the portal to emptiness...

[Bindi]

He seems to be saying that what we are looking for in terms of happiness/enlightenment doesn't exist, and this is his realisation. I am who I am right now, which is absolutely no different to who I was a moment ago when I still believed enlightenmnet was possible, I am merely unburdened of that one delusion, and freed from seeking which is a useless acivity. 

 

How does the eternal witness relate to this?

[Apech]

There is a big misconception about what the "Hindu" view is. Often this mistaken position ascribed to "Hindu" thought is juxtaposed with the "Buddhist" view and then vigorously debated (which is also equally pointless mental acrobatics)...

 

First, that which is "looking" is a primordial emptiness that is full of potentiality. When the seeker realizes this, the clinging and aversion to poles (good, bad; right, wrong; pain, pleasure...etc etc) disappear. In this absence of positions is freedom. This is the Advaita Hindu view (Vedanta). There are different nuances in different traditions - shaivism or Vedanta, Tantra etc. But end goal is cessation of suffering.

 

This is not the Dvaita (dualistic view), where grace of the deity provides a "state" of blissful union or subservience...(ultimately none other than that primordial emptiness - who is our very own Self, and ever present as the timeless presence). The dualist is not ready to forsake experience, whereas the nondualist knows that the experience is nothing but a taste of the infinity that he/she already is.

 

So which strawman do you want to tear down? Better to stick with practice...IMHO

 

Very nicely put - thank you.

[Apech]

He seems to be saying that what we are looking for in terms of happiness/enlightenment doesn't exist, and this is his realisation. I am who I am right now, which is absolutely no different to who I was a moment ago when I still believed enlightenmnet was possible, I am merely unburdened of that one delusion, and freed from seeking which is a useless acivity. 

 

How does the eternal witness relate to this?

 

God knows what he's saying - one of most annoying vids I've seen for quite a while.

[dwai]

He seems to be saying that what we are looking for in terms of happiness/enlightenment doesn't exist, and this is his realisation. I am who I am right now, which is absolutely no different to who I was a moment ago when I still believed enlightenmnet was possible, I am merely unburdened of that one delusion, and freed from seeking which is a useless acivity. 

 

How does the eternal witness relate to this?

 

The eternal witness is the presence, ime which stands straddling emptiness and the 10,000 things (so to speak). It doesn't have any desires, fears, likes or dislikes. So it is already free.

 

So ultimately, there is no need for enlightenment as that which we seek is already us and already enlightened and free.

 

However, that is not something that just a mere verbal pronouncement or intellectual understanding can make "real" for us, imho. There is still the part where we work towards stilling the mind so we can become aware of the witness...as a noisy mind obscures the witness (or a right tug at the right time stops the mind for us suddenly). 

 

We also need to use whatever tools work for us to really know what we are looking for, until we can just be the presence or the witness or "I am" without the noise of the mind, intellect, thoughts etc. 

 

It's hard until it becomes easy. Then it is just easy. People think they're doing us a favor by telling us that it's all simple and easy...because they've forgotten how much they themselves must've struggled to get it. 

 

My teacher told me this when I started with him...first it'll seem very hard, until you learn how to do it. Then it becomes easy and you'll think back and exclaim "Is this how easy it was?!? Why didn't I get it more easily?"

[silent thunder]

The eternal witness is the presence, ime which stands straddling emptiness and the 10,000 things (so to speak). It doesn't have any desires, fears, likes or dislikes. So it is already free.

 

So ultimately, there is no need for enlightenment as that which we seek is already us and already enlightened and free.

 

However, that is not something that just a mere verbal pronouncement or intellectual understanding can make "real" for us, imho. There is still the part where we work towards stilling the mind so we can become aware of the witness...as a noisy mind obscures the witness (or a right tug at the right time stops the mind for us suddenly). 

 

We also need to use whatever tools work for us to really know what we are looking for, until we can just be the presence or the witness or "I am" without the noise of the mind, intellect, thoughts etc. 

 

It's hard until it becomes easy. Then it is just easy. People think they're doing us a favor by telling us that it's all simple and easy...because they've forgotten how much they themselves must've struggled to get it. 

 

My teacher told me this when I started with him...first it'll seem very hard, until you learn how to do it. Then it becomes easy and you'll think back and exclaim "Is this how easy it was?!? Why didn't I get it more easily?"

Really nicely put mate.  Those words resonate very closely to my home.

 

i like the water analogy. 

 

At first i try to observe what lies beneath a pool of water (mind) and all i see are ripples (actions).  i try to clear away the ripples (work, discipline) and end up making more ripples and distortions.  Though when my action inevitably ceases (the action of dao is a bellows) push and pull settle in balance and there will come moments of clarity and calm and glimpses of what lies beneath will come.

 

eventually a moment arises and i am calm...

 

and I realize i am looking into a clear, silent, calm pool of water (mind) and seeing the reflection (my perceptions/interpretations of the phenomena), this may be dazzling and overwhelming but this too passes and settles in balance (perhaps with more work, or simple realization), though at some point with a slight shift of my gaze, i see past my reflection and the reflection of phenomena and realize I am seeing through the water to what lies beneath (witness) always present but so easily clouded and hidden when ripples and action disturb and muddy the interaction. 

 

The hard part seems to me, in being calm water.  Though as your teacher says, "first it'll seem very hard, until you learn how to do it. Then it becomes easy and you'll think back and exclaim "Is this how easy it was?!? Why didn't I get it more easily?"

 

Eventually even when ripples are present, there is abiding awareness of what lies beneath and there is unity, even in the midst of perception and work and ... the rest of it.

 

kinda sorta...

 

edit to add one sentence for clarity ( ha, ripples leading to clarity? )

Edited January 26, 2017 by silent thunder

[Bindi]

The eternal witness is the presence, ime which stands straddling emptiness and the 10,000 things (so to speak). It doesn't have any desires, fears, likes or dislikes. So it is already free.

 

So ultimately, there is no need for enlightenment as that which we seek is already us and already enlightened and free.

 

However, that is not something that just a mere verbal pronouncement or intellectual understanding can make "real" for us, imho. There is still the part where we work towards stilling the mind so we can become aware of the witness...as a noisy mind obscures the witness (or a right tug at the right time stops the mind for us suddenly). 

 

We also need to use whatever tools work for us to really know what we are looking for, until we can just be the presence or the witness or "I am" without the noise of the mind, intellect, thoughts etc. 

 

It's hard until it becomes easy. Then it is just easy. People think they're doing us a favor by telling us that it's all simple and easy...because they've forgotten how much they themselves must've struggled to get it. 

 

My teacher told me this when I started with him...first it'll seem very hard, until you learn how to do it. Then it becomes easy and you'll think back and exclaim "Is this how easy it was?!? Why didn't I get it more easily?"

 

You equate Paul Hedderman's "What's looking" with the eternal witness that doesn't have any desires, fears and likes, so it is already free. But being free already and without any desire, why would it be "looking" for itself in the first place?

[dwai]

You equate Paul Hedderman's "What's looking" with the eternal witness that doesn't have any desires, fears and likes, so it is already free. But being free already and without any desire, why would it be "looking" for itself in the first place?

 

That's a good question...

 

When we finally realize this, it is so obvious...but there is a tendency to forget and lose sight of who/what we really are. That is called Avidya in Vedanta and the mechanism that makes us forget is called Maya. 

 

Here's something I'd attempted a few years back (to try and answer this) --

 

http://www.medhajournal.com/index.php/en/component/content/article/14-columns/philosophy/549-the-maya-and-karma-conundrum

 

I finally decided it's pointless to try to answer "why". It's better to just know the fact and just be...

[Bindi]

I think I realise my error, and it is an error I often make in this sort of discussion, I believe that what you are saying is from the perspective of the Absolute level where there is only the eternal witness, whereas I am focused on the conventional level and my identification with a false self and its deconstruction.

 

I think we're just looking in different directions.

[johndoe2012]

Bindi,  I think Paul Hedderman touches upon your question maybe not in this video but in others.

 

What's looking can become an object for the mind to look for in a stage before it gets obvious that what's looking cannot be an object to get.

 

So there is a sense of a seer that sees which in turn makes it into a path for the seeker to find "what's looking" until the sense of a seer gets dissolved.

[dwai]

I think I realise my error, and it is an error I often make in this sort of discussion, I believe that what you are saying is from the perspective of the Absolute level where there is only the eternal witness, whereas I am focused on the conventional level and my identification with a false self and its deconstruction.

 

I think we're just looking in different directions.

You are not alone. That's why we need constant practice. My friend calls it "constant remembrance"...to be constantly aware of who we truly are.

 

I don't know, maybe that's a phase too. It was harder to remember even a few months ago and seems easier now...I think it's a constantly shifting adjustment...

[Bindi]

You are not alone. That's why we need constant practice. My friend calls it "constant remembrance"...to be constantly aware of who we truly are.

 

I don't know, maybe that's a phase too. It was harder to remember even a few months ago and seems easier now...I think it's a constantly shifting adjustment...

 

In a way the true Self can be intuited in our feeling of lack and incompleteness in life. Recognising this incompleteness started me looking for a way to relieve it, and has kept me looking ever since. Looking backwards to discern and deconstruct the layers of false self is my active choice, not really a forgetting of who I really am. For me it just seems to be the most direct way back to True Self.

[Jeff]

In a way the true Self can be intuited in our feeling of lack and incompleteness in life. Recognising this incompleteness started me looking for a way to relieve it, and has kept me looking ever since. Looking backwards to discern and deconstruct the layers of false self is my active choice, not really a forgetting of who I really am. For me it just seems to be the most direct way back to True Self.

Very cool. Thank you for the insight.

[johndoe2012]

In a way the true Self can be intuited in our feeling of lack and incompleteness in life. Recognising this incompleteness started me looking for a way to relieve it, and has kept me looking ever since. Looking backwards to discern and deconstruct the layers of false self is my active choice, not really a forgetting of who I really am. For me it just seems to be the most direct way back to True Self.

This sense of lack and incompleteness for me comes in waves.

 

I have had days where nothing was wrong because the mind was silent and all actions flowed nicely.

 

Then a bump occurs and there is a drop in clarity for some reason. And then there is a continued felt need for practice or another way to clear the blockages that caused the bump.

[Bindi]

 

Christian mystics have long insisted on self-emptying as prerequisite to union with the Ultimate. This is spiritual poverty — human emptiness enabled to be filled with spiritual fullness. For such mystics, the void has been something to embrace. This emptiness evokes the mystery of what is, the potentiality of what can be, and the absolute otherness of being that underpins all...

We have to rid ourselves of the fear that emptiness is an annihilating desolation or desecration. We face the same struggle with solitude and its language of silence. We are drawn to simplicity. This movement demands a series of “letting go” until all the layers are peeled away…

If we know the emptiness that yearns to be filled – if we recognize the potential spiritual energy which lies within the heart – then we can feel at home with this emptiness. Our souls will be vibrated by it…

Into the Heart of God By Augustin Belisle

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