Attainment of full enlightenment through Cultivation

[damdao]

It is very paradoxical, nearly Nasrudin-like how in a forum called Dao Bums and in the subsection Daoist Discussion what a lot of people seems to be trying to avoid the Chinese aspects of Daoism. It reminds me the orientalist attitude of the XIX century, colonialist of course, among other things. In fact, trying to speak about the fact which is Daoism apart from the Chinese Schools which teach and practice it is a form of colonialism.

It is highly doubtful that most of people who attained the Dao did it only through practice and not through texts. Most of Chinese masters are well versed in the classics this means knowing classical Chinese and wide reading. In fact, Chinese people regards this kind of balance as a good sign, a person with classical knowledge and practical knowledge, wen-wu in balance. In fact we need to read and to practice these are not mutually exclusive paths.

Of course we can translate qi as prana, but prana is a sanskrit word, so the cultural aspect remains. In fact, speaking about this the Dalai Lama stated that there are two hundred of years ahead until all tibetans texts are translated into English, if we think about daoist studies we can state the same thing. Of course, as Arkady said, in the future the situation could change but only a little.

Then we have the issue regarding the authority, who gains benefits from ignorance? Only manipulative people. If a school stimulates you to read directly the classics there is less room for manipulation, instead if a school or a teacher stresses a discurse of not reading and not learning language then manipulation is very easy.

We must not forget, as DSC said, that if we don't know Chinese we must rely on translators, and most of them has their own agenda. What spiritual merit there is in not knowing chinese? What spiritual demerit there is in knowing it? Besides, relying in the early translator gives birth to monsters like the early model/image of daoism and daoists, to the dichotomy between religious and philosophical daoism, etc. so distorted it was...

In fact, this early model was heavely influenced by neo-confucianists commentators who were against daoists. The book of Russel Kirkland Taoism the Enduring Tradition is a must in order to criticize this early fantasy and the fabrication of daoist as wild people apart of the society. Of course, Needham too is a must. 

[dawei]

It is very paradoxical, nearly Nasrudin-like how in a forum called Dao Bums and in the subsection Daoist Discussion what a lot of people seems to be trying to avoid the Chinese aspects of Daoism. It reminds me the orientalist attitude of the XIX century, colonialist of course, among other things. In fact, trying to speak about the fact which is Daoism apart from the Chinese Schools which teach and practice it is a form of colonialism.

 

I read back through the thread and it seems to be in the wrong area...    It belongs in General.

 

The title and comments from the topic starter shows he is not asking about daoism and thus questions:

1. Why are folks using culture specific words without translation

2. Can't anyone just say it more plainly in english using english concepts.  I suspect, as an example, Spotless's use of 'organic' is preferred over Wu Wei.

 

I kind of expected this thread to take a more buddhist explanation but daoism is taking over here... maybe because most folks experience is more with that... or they are just not understanding the thread.

 

Anyways.. trying to see if I can help the OP get this back on track a little bit.

[TheDustAutumn]

Nobody is denying the importance the Chinese language has for those searching for Dao. The problems appears when you make all those claims about your school in a lot of threads and seemingly from more than one member of your school  and the only thing you bring to the table are scholarly interpretations of classic texts. I'm not opposed to the idea that only a few schools hold the complete methods(I actually favor that hypothesis) and that yours is one of them but what about giving us mere mortals some more tangible evidence? Other schools that claim extraordinary results, and that their art is "more complete" than that of other schools, like Mopai and Gengmen pai, have shown more than literary analysis to back their claim(as questionable as that might be).In the mean time we don't even really know who the grand master of your school is. I think this type of  "Taoist bible thumping" gets old fast, especially when claims such as actual 'physical immortality" or that normal people getting your schools techniques are like "children playing with guns" are made yet not a single shred of proof is delivered. I might be wrong, but from reading the threads on this forum I find it all very suspicions

[damdao]

I read back through the thread and it seems to be in the wrong area...    It belongs in General.

 

The title and comments from the topic starter shows he is not asking about daoism and thus questions:

1. Why are folks using culture specific words without translation

2. Can't anyone just say it more plainly in english using english concepts.  I suspect, as an example, Spotless's use of 'organic' is preferred over Wu Wei.

 

I kind of expected this thread to take a more buddhist explanation but daoism is taking over here... maybe because most folks experience is more with that... or they are just not understanding the thread.

 

Anyways.. trying to see if I can help the OP get this back on track a little bit.

 

This is simply not fair... now I have to change my earlier text...

Well, the OP is a about comparing daoism and buddhism and as the OP introduced a daoist concept (immortality) qualified in a way that seems not correct (earthbound) it is obvious that the thread had to take two paths, one buddhist (or other schools advocating for enlightenment) and the other daoist (or yogic or other schools advocating immortality).

The asking for a non-chinese terminology was after a while, in fact it was not only about nonchinese terminology or english concepts but about something that all people can understand http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43230-attainment-of-full-enlightenment-through-cultivation/?p=734991 in fact, something understandable.

I don't see the problem of chinese concepts and I don't see the advantage of english concepts, on the contrary it is a godd exercise to open up the mind with another framework, another paradigma, many discussions arise from a partial comprehension of the original langage. But all this is out of place now that the thread has been moved to the general section... 

[dawei]

This is simply not fair... now I have to change my earlier text...

Well, the OP is a about comparing daoism and buddhism and as the OP introduced a daoist concept (immortality) qualified in a way that seems not correct (earthbound) it is obvious that the thread had to take two paths, one buddhist (or other schools advocating for enlightenment) and the other daoist (or yogic or other schools advocating immortality).

The asking for a non-chinese terminology was after a while, in fact it was not only about nonchinese terminology or english concepts but about something that all people can understand http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43230-attainment-of-full-enlightenment-through-cultivation/?p=734991 in fact, something understandable.

I don't see the problem of chinese concepts and I don't see the advantage of english concepts, on the contrary it is a godd exercise to open up the mind with another framework, another paradigma, many discussions arise from a partial comprehension of the original langage. But all this is out of place now that the thread has been moved to the general section... 

 

I didn't tell you or anyone to change their text...   but the OP is clearly asking for info and continuing to point out that what folks offer him is not what he is really asking for... I'm just trying to help him a bit.

 

The hope is generally folks respond by staying on topic and respect the thread starters requests...

[Taoist Texts]

  I think this type of  "Taoist bible thumping" gets old fast, especially when claims such as actual 'physical immortality" 

 

I am always fascinated how  the every tenet of the commercial neidaneers is the direct opposite of the tradition they pretend to  represent. They are never more or less wrong. They are always 180 degrees, black to white wrong. And they are wrong on every instance.

 

Huang-di says 'no methods' - they insist on methods.

Chan buddhism says ' transmission outside the scriptures, Not founded upon words and letters;' - they thump texts they do not understand and insist that the proof is in tao-babble.

Quanzhen masters say ' strange and deceitful things such as .. sending out the Spirit.' - they insist that the spirit travel is the ultimate proof.

 

Its like they figured out that the true tradition is never going to sell, so they made up an anti-tradition to sell to the gullible.

 

Also this ridiculous  stuff about zipping around in a Yang spirit or whatever, where on earth did they get that from? From Harry Potter?

[Spotless]

Why did Buddha make those statements? Why was he simply not silent?

 

If there is no method or no effort, then what is the point in discussing this in a forum? Why the need to convey this "no method" on a forum post asking about attaining enlightenment through cultivation?

 

If there is no cultivation, no method, no effort, then the OP, rest assured will attain enlightenment; if he has not already attained it by reading, "no method" posts.

 

Let's say, we both agree that there is no method. Why are we talking or discussing about it.

 

Do you want people to drop methods? Is that the method (dropping methods) which worked for you?

 

I have read tons of books lecturing or saying that seeking enlightenment will not bring any results. May be so. But let me ask a question with the following quote. At the penalty of repeating this quote on this forum again, I put forth this question to you?

Please read the following quote. What is the need to state or lecture or even state that there is "no method"? This question is not just to you, it is to Buddha also.

There are times in which reading is helpful and when putting the books down is helpful.

Cultivation is all over the board - it is not like a recipe for a cupcake.

 

One of the problems that all of the real teachings is facing is that the audience is in trance. A sleep walking trance and the communication is trying to get through this, in this and somehow jiggle the various energetic structures that hold the audience in this trance sleep state.

 

It is also unfortunate that we have put the cart before the horse: we should move immediately to the subject of Awakening.

In many cases Awakening is the definition of Enlightenment - after this is ever Enlightening - or in some schools Full Enlightenment has other key milestones.

 

But once teachers begin the other key milestone parts - the sleeping tranced masses are entirely enthralled with the most Perfect Perfections that can be Perfectly Achieved be Perfected Masters within the Most Perfected traditions by Perfect people who will spell it out in a Perfected cupcake recipe.

 

There are tons of examples of seekers seeking Enlightenment / Awakening and finding it. In fact it is nearly the norm - many great sages and teachers speak of it in their own experiences. But many many have found it without seeking it. Yet not one who was seeking it found what they were looking for - 1. the seeker dies upon Awakening. 2. The Presence that is now the "seekers" center

and free of the veil of trance and noise and confusion is still in some residual - and in an Amazing but very very different awareness than anything the seeker was expecting or conditioned for.

 

Getting to Awakening is many times easier if the seeker is not too far merged in the books and methods and lectures and quotes of the Perfect Perfection of Perfected Perfect People. The brass tax (the good stuff) is in some pretty simple stuff - but this does not sell well and it should. Trance sleep makes bright colors and loud noises necessary to sell things - unfortunately this is not the way to Awaken.

 

In addition to "bright colors and loud noises" traditions use paradox and mind twisters to force some modicum of concentration on the sleepers in order to wrangle them from Trance Mind and perk up some Presence to the subject matter at hand. And while siddhis ("special abilities") are not to be sought after - these "bright" colors are attention grabbers and everyone whispers if not shouts about them. They are so misunderstood and pitifully bandied about by the sleepers and sleeping seekers and general Masters and priests that Awakening has completely taken a back seat.

 

Awakening is not sooooo difficult - but it is - and many "successful seeker's" have simply given up on their trance sleep noise blindness and laid on a rock and required a God to either bring them to Enlightenment / Awakening or they will die from exposure waiting because they will no longer wallow in the obscurance of Divine Natural Essence. And in many accounts a "God" or simply that level of offering oneself to Awakening is what it took - and they Awakened.

 

In other cases - particularly in Zen - the general reference is to something that snapped them out of the trance sleep and they Awoke.

 

It is nearly impossible to read read read about this stuff and for the reading not to become a hindrance in itself. It always sets the stage for Perfect Perfection thinking and removes the simple strength in simple means. Water is stronger than rock - but all we want is diamonds.

 

In most cases Awakening is achieved through exhaustion - we learn the basics and read read read read read read read read read and then we engineer this and that and completely loose ourselves in any siddhis that do finally arrive and then tire of them or die in allegiance to them but if we are truly seekers then at some point we lie on that "imaginary rock" and drop all our well read noise in the dirt and just fall into stillness and Awaken.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Spotless

[MIchael80]

:)Very well spoken Spotless!!

Edited February 5, 2017 by MIchael80

[damdao]

 The problems appears when you make all those claims about your school in a lot of threads and seemingly from more than one member of your school  and the only thing you bring to the table are scholarly interpretations of classic texts. I'm not opposed to the idea that only a few schools hold the complete methods(I actually favor that hypothesis) and that yours is one of them but what about giving us mere mortals some more tangible evidence? Other schools that claim extraordinary results, and that their art is "more complete" than that of other schools, like Mopai and Gengmen pai, have shown more than literary analysis to back their claim(as questionable as that might be).

 

Here we can see a confusion in the categories. 

Genmen is a buddhist school and Mopai is "mohist" neither of two are neidan nor they claim it (by the way, this reminds me when hempel tried to prove that Chunyi Lin school is neidan despite the fact that Nance said no), so it is not comparable with a school that speaks about neidan principles.

[s1va]

There are times in which reading is helpful and when putting the books down is helpful.

Cultivation is all over the board - it is not like a recipe for a cupcake.

 

One of the problems that all of the real teachings is facing is that the audience is in trance. A sleep walking trance and the communication is trying to get through this, in this and somehow jiggle the various energetic structures that hold the audience in this trance sleep state.

 

It is also unfortunate that we have put the cart before the horse: we should move immediately to the subject of Awakening.

In many cases Awakening is the definition of Enlightenment - after this is ever Enlightening - or in some schools Full Enlightenment has other key milestones.

 

But once teachers begin the other key milestone parts - the sleeping tranced masses are entirely enthralled with the most Perfect Perfections that can be Perfectly Achieved be Perfected Masters within the Most Perfected traditions by Perfect people who will spell it out in a Perfected cupcake recipe.

 

There are tons of examples of seekers seeking Enlightenment / Awakening and finding it. In fact it is nearly the norm - many great sages and teachers speak of it in their own experiences. But many many have found it without seeking it. Yet not one who was seeking it found what they were looking for - 1. the seeker dies upon Awakening. 2. The Presence that is now the "seekers" center

and free of the veil of trance and noise and confusion is still in some residual - and in an Amazing but very very different awareness than anything the seeker was expecting or conditioned for.

 

Getting to Awakening is many times easier if the seeker is not too far merged in the books and methods and lectures and quotes of the Perfect Perfection of Perfected Perfect People. The brass tax (the good stuff) is in some pretty simple stuff - but this does not sell well and it should. Trance sleep makes bright colors and loud noises necessary to sell things - unfortunately this is not the way to Awaken.

 

In addition to "bright colors and loud noises" traditions use paradox and mind twisters to force some modicum of concentration on the sleepers in order to wrangle them from Trance Mind and perk up some Presence to the subject matter at hand. And while siddhis ("special abilities") are not to be sought after - these "bright" colors are attention grabbers and everyone whispers if not shouts about them. They are so misunderstood and pitifully bandied about by the sleepers and sleeping seekers and general Masters and priests that Awakening has completely taken a back seat.

 

Awakening is not sooooo difficult - but it is - and many "successful seeker's" have simply given up on their trance sleep noise blindness and laid on a rock and required a God to either bring them to Enlightenment / Awakening or they will die from exposure waiting because they will no longer wallow in the obscurance of Divine Natural Essence. And in many accounts a "God" or simply that level of offering oneself to Awakening is what it took - and they Awakened.

 

In other cases - particularly in Zen - the general reference is to something that snapped them out of the trance sleep and they Awoke.

 

It is nearly impossible to read read read about this stuff and for the reading not to become a hindrance in itself. It always sets the stage for Perfect Perfection thinking and removes the simple strength in simple means. Water is stronger than rock - but all we want is diamonds.

 

In most cases Awakening is achieved through exhaustion - we learn the basics and read read read read read read read read read and then we engineer this and that and completely loose ourselves in any siddhis that do finally arrive and then tire of them or die in allegiance to them but if we are truly seekers than at some point we lie on that "imaginary rock" and drop all our well read noise in the dirt and just fall into stillness and Awaken.

 

I read the post.  enthralling read!  then it went to confusion.   the nature of read read read?

[damdao]

There are times in which reading is helpful and when putting the books down is helpful.

Cultivation is all over the board - it is not like a recipe for a cupcake.

etc etc etc

 

Neidan is about working out ming and xing, so insisting only in a xing experience is the same as speak about other thing than neidan.

So, mocking at a neidan school speaking about other thing is like barking at the wrong tree.

[TheDustAutumn]

Here we can see a confusion in the categories. 

Genmen is a buddhist school and Mopai is "mohist" neither of two are neidan nor they claim it (by the way, this reminds me when hempel tried to prove that Chunyi Lin school is neidan despite the fact that Nance said no), so it is not comparable with a school that speaks about neidan principles.

The claim of extraordinary abilities and results, as well as the claim that most other schools lack complete methods is the common denominator in this particular case, and as they say, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". The fact that they are not nei dan(as far as you know, at least) is irrelevant to the point I am making and which you completely ignored.

Edited February 5, 2017 by TheDustAutumn

[damdao]

The fact that they are not nei dan(as far as you know, at least) is irrelevant to the point I am making and which you completely ignored.

 

It is relevant to the accusation "my school is the only true all others not". 

There is a tendency in human mind to over simplification of complex and multidimensional situations and this leads to emotional reactions.

All is reduced to the fight "my school is better" and this is not the point. The point is about what is neidan and what is not neidan.

About proof. First, I cannot provide you with the proof I suppose you look for, I am a beginner (in neidan), but I do have my proofs and I am satisfied.

As a methodological point: What is a proof? What a proof proves? What kind of research is needed for that? What are the qualifications of the researcher? Finally, What the tradition says about the whole research-proof thing? I think it deserves a thread in itself.

[DSCB57]

This is simply not fair... now I have to change my earlier text...

Well, the OP is a about comparing daoism and buddhism and as the OP introduced a daoist concept (immortality) qualified in a way that seems not correct (earthbound) it is obvious that the thread had to take two paths, one buddhist (or other schools advocating for enlightenment) and the other daoist (or yogic or other schools advocating immortality).

The asking for a non-chinese terminology was after a while, in fact it was not only about nonchinese terminology or english concepts but about something that all people can understand http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43230-attainment-of-full-enlightenment-through-cultivation/?p=734991 in fact, something understandable.

I don't see the problem of chinese concepts and I don't see the advantage of english concepts, on the contrary it is a godd exercise to open up the mind with another framework, another paradigma, many discussions arise from a partial comprehension of the original langage. But all this is out of place now that the thread has been moved to the general section... 

 

Sorry, but I think you have mixed the threads up. The title of this particular one is: Attainment of full enlightenment through Cultivation. As the terms 'enlightenment and 'cultivation' are common to several different traditions, this thread is neither directed toward Taoist nor Buddhist traditions specifically, as Dawai just pointed out, so there is no reason why one should take preference over the other - nor indeed why other traditions should not be included in the discussion - other than posts being steered in one direction or the other by the subsequent contributions. This is only to be expected when the site has a name like 'The Dao Bums', in which one would expect there to be a majority of Taoists, and in fact the inclusion of a Buddhist and Hindu section was a pleasant surprise.

I apologise for the confusion - obviously there has to be some degree of cross-over between several different threads I started simultaneously - this is because I was asking different questions from different perspectives, yet all geared toward the overall subject of enlightenment or awakening to one's True Nature. I thought it would be a better approach than to start a single thread and include all my questions in that single thread, which has the potential to lead to chaos rather than clarity. However I am also finding it difficult to simultaneously keep track of all the threads I opened, so I quite understand how this confusion has come about. 

[DSCB57]

I would like to extend my gratitude to everyone who has contributed to this and my other threads on the question of enlightenment. I would like to open a new thread in which I would like to invite those who are still in the process of awakening to speak of their insights and share their experience of the ongoing process. 

What I feel is that these conversations have provided the right conditions for me to begin to understand. Because I have found myself with my back to the wall and feeling naked and exposed and vulnerable in a way that would have been difficult to experience in different circumstances. And I would like to discuss the process I am going through as a result. To do so I do not want to muscle in on anyone else's thread nor impose my opinions or realisations on anyone else. I expect the same from you in turn if you decide to contribute. 

The object is to attempt to provide a blow by blow account of such realisations as they occur and keep it simple, so that the entire thread will serve others to enable them to understand the process with very little, if any reference to difficult to understand terminology. In another thread somebody asks: "Aren't we over-complicating things?" I think that question hits the nail right on the head. What I have read from most of you in your attempts to clarify the matter to others, in my opinion leads to too much of the intellect needing to become involved. It requires a certain intellectual capacity to even grasp what is being explained. But in my opinion if it cannot be explained in simple terms it must remain exclusive to the intellectually elite, rather than being the birthright of each of us - as Gautama Buddha said, every one of us has Buddha nature and so has the potential to become realised as a Buddha. The objective is by no means to make this a specifically Buddhism oriented thread, but please keep the Taoist terminology to an absolute minimum if you do want to participate. 

What I am unsure of is what to call the thread and where to post it - any ideas?

[rex]

...

Edited February 6, 2017 by rex

[dawei]

What I am unsure of is what to call the thread and where to post it - any ideas?

 

If you still favor this topic title... we could rename this one and then you use this title somewhere else...   but I leave that request up to you.

[[email protected]]

TT,

If you deny ming cultivation then it is clear that you don't need any methods. Just relax in meditation and claim that you reached smth you say "Dao".

But if we agree that ming practive is important, then it is obvious that it needs some actions which are based on methods. Otherwise you will be trying to cultivate smth-don't-know what...

[Taoist Texts]

TT,

If you deny ming cultivation then it is clear that you don't need any methods. Just relax in meditation and claim that you reached smth you say "Dao".

 

I do not deny ming cultivation. I am alive and well now thanks to it.  What i deny, is the existence of a separate and secret ming cultivation practice, particularly in  the commercial neidan.

 

But if we agree that ming practive is important, then it is obvious that it needs some actions which are based on methods. Otherwise you will be trying to cultivate smth-don't-know what...

 

 

I personally know very well what i  cultivate, thnk you very much.

 

The reason you addressed your post to me is obviously to get my opinion. Here it is: in a few years from now, with  youthfulness gone and the clock  ticking, you will blame your lack of results on a bunch of reasons. No money to buy the secrets of ming, work, teachers, worldly distractions etc etc...but you will overlook the real reason - your wrong choice of the obvious now.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Yep. It's sad to see those probably young guys talking about immortality but in couple years they will have wrinkles and all the pain of the old age. Who will be there to blame? You because you failed into illusion of permanence or teachers to sell you young folks dreams?

[[email protected]]

I do not deny ming cultivation. I am alive and well now thanks to it. What i deny, is the existence of a separate and secret ming cultivation practice, particularly in the commercial neidan.

 

I personally know very well what i cultivate, thnk you very much.

 

There was a good question in another thread. If you understand Ming practice you could answer the questions:

- Where is Ming located?

- How do you notice that your Ming (yuanqi) is being regenerated?

- How do you distinguish it from ordinary qi? How does it correspond with ancient Daoist writings?

 

The reason you addressed your post to me is obviously to get my opinion. Here it is: in a few years from now, with youthfulness gone and the clock ticking, you will blame your lack of results on a bunch of reasons. No money to buy the secrets of ming, work, teachers, worldly distractions etc etc...but you will overlook the real reason - your wrong choice of the obvious now.

 

Taking into account your detailed emotional description this might be a result of your choise and your way. But as we go different ways it is likely that our results will also be different.

Edited February 6, 2017 by [email protected]

[Arkady Shadursky]

I am always fascinated
<...>

 

Fortunately, I'm convinced that our community is getting better as a result of this discussion. I believe that one of the most important qualities of any researcher who'd like to achieve something via cultivation - is the ability to distinguish between trues and lies, between true teacher and a profane.

 

Dear TT, now you made a statement of your divinity without any proof (would like to remind everyone, that here TT claimed that he "obtained dao" = equally to LaoZi, Lu Dongbin and other immortals :D )

 

Being pointed to obvious mismatch with qualities of immortals, instead of answering fellow members you have posted off-topic with statements which seem to be not true.

 

We don't see any sense to analyze each unfounded statement of "Taoist Texts". However this one would probably be useful for those who are new to the Daoism - please see my comment on this here.

 

Thank you for your attention.
---
Best Regards,
Arkady

Edited February 6, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Taoist Texts]

  You because you failed into illusion of permanence or teachers to sell you young folks dreams?

 

we will let both of them have the last word 

 

for now..hehe)

[DSCB57]

If you still favor this topic title... we could rename this one and then you use this title somewhere else...   but I leave that request up to you.

 

Thank you. The OP may have gone a bit off course, but no, I prefer to open a new thread for this, even though there have been some enlightening insights on this thread. The point is that the new thread will be directed toward those who are taking their first steps on the path. In fact that is probably what we should call the new thread- First steps on the path. Of course, you are free to rename this existing thread if you think it would provide any benefit. I am glad that it seems to have been of some interest at least to some of the contributors, and I am glad that it has given rise to so much debate, and I hope that it will coalesce into something useful for everyone who visits the thread.

[SeekerOfHealing]

The only thing can liberate you is seeing independent origination directly - period. If you think otherwise you are like a men whom fall in love with women which fall in love with his money.