Attainment of full enlightenment through Cultivation

[Awakener]

On 2/5/2017 at 8:05 AM, Spotless said:

It is nearly impossible to read read read about this stuff and for the reading not to become a hindrance in itself. It always sets the stage for Perfect Perfection thinking and removes the simple strength in simple means. Water is stronger than rock - but all we want is diamonds.

 

In most cases Awakening is achieved through exhaustion - we learn the basics and read read read read read read read read read and then we engineer this and that and completely loose ourselves in any siddhis that do finally arrive and then tire of them or die in allegiance to them but if we are truly seekers then at some point we lie on that "imaginary rock" and drop all our well read noise in the dirt and just fall into stillness and Awaken.

 

This resonates with me greatly, Thank you!

[Starjumper]

On 1/28/2017 at 11:46 AM, DSCB57 said:

Hi everyone. I would like to know which forms of Cultivation lead to full enlightenment rather than earthbound immortality? What does the method consist of in these practices?

 

I feel that although enlightenment is required to become a spirit immortal that you would find that not all those who experience enlightenment will become immortals.  It sounds from the description that you had a real enlightenment experience but you didn't mention bliss.  Did you feel bliss, emotional bliss?

 

After the drug bliss of the enlightenment experience wears off then you have the withdrawals, when you get the realizations.  Is having those realizations being fully enlightened or is it being in a constant state of emotional bliss?

[DSCB57]

On 5/22/2017 at 11:36 PM, Starjumper said:

 

I feel that although enlightenment is required to become a spirit immortal that you would find that not all those who experience enlightenment will become immortals.  It sounds from the description that you had a real enlightenment experience but you didn't mention bliss.  Did you feel bliss, emotional bliss?

 

After the drug bliss of the enlightenment experience wears off then you have the withdrawals, when you get the realizations.  Is having those realizations being fully enlightened or is it being in a constant state of emotional bliss?

 

My apologies Starjumper for my late reply, and thank you for corroborating my experience as possibly having been real rather than purely drug-induced. To answer your question, yes, indeed the entire experience was one of entirely dissolving into a blissful union with the source of life itself - so much so that it took me a considerable amount of time to adjust to returning to the 'normal' (unawakened) state. But that said, I'm not sure I would describe it as 'emotional' bliss, because it was more profound than an emotional experience, but I can only describe it as bliss, because I have no other words with which to describe it. But perhaps a 'blissful knowing' may be more accurate, because I was only aware of the existence of a generative force which I understood was Love. I understood that this was all that there is - nothing else existed outside of that, and all life was born from that force, and that is our true nature. This was my knowing.

This was to severely impact my subsequent spiritual quest, as nothing could compare with the intensity of that experience, and naturally this had become an expectation of what I sought from any high spiritual practice. Obviously that was not a realistic expectation, and this also led to a depressive state as I now felt trapped in this experience of life, having had a taste (literally, the nectar I described) of the reality of existence beyond the dualistic framework. 

But the key point here is the fact that the experience was impermanent, which is why I started to believe it must have been delusional or at least a further illusion of the senses. Not that it really matters anyway, now I try and not allow myself to remain attached to the experience. But the memory remains...

Incidentally, I remembered that I have had this experience of tasting the nectar on another occasion. It was during my personal initiation as a Premi by Guru Maharaji a few years before (around 1993 I believe).

 

David

[Starjumper]

There are three types of bliss, physical bliss, mental bliss, and emotional bliss.  The experience is not physical bliss, nor is it mental bliss because thinking stops, therefore that leaves emotional bliss.  If you recall back to your experience you should see that it's really a feeling.  Frequently people describe the experience of cessation, of loving acceptance, and of oneness as if it's some kind of mental realization of an idea, but it's not that at all, its a feeling you have.  It's only after the fact, when the experience wears off and thinking returns, that some people try to make sense of it as if it's some kind of realization.  The realization is really about knowing you have this potential for emotional bliss and how it manifests itself.

 

The reason I said it's like a drug is because it has exactly the same characteristics, from the instant high to the way it dissipates, to the withdrawal symptoms later.  I feel that is during the withdrawal part, when thinking returns that what are called realizations come.  Now we just need to find out what drug it is, it must be one that the human body can produce.

 

Just a get rich quick scheme.  There's a retired chi kung master here in town and he told me that when he was younger and had more power that he could induce an enlightenment experience in students using energy and intent.  He found out right away that it was a waste of energy because most students weren't able to do anything with it.

 

Mental bliss can happen after a person masters non thinking during daily activities,  Then thinking can return and not stir them out of stillness.  Mental bliss is an intense enjoyment of thinking itself.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Starjumper

[DSCB57]

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There are three types of bliss, physical bliss, mental bliss, and emotional bliss.  The experience is not physical bliss, nor is it mental bliss because thinking stops, therefore that leaves emotional bliss.  If you recall back to your experience you should see that it's really a feeling.  Frequently people describe the experience of cessation, of loving acceptance, and of oneness as if it's some kind of mental realization of an idea, but it's not that at all, its a feeling you have.  It's only after the fact, when the experience wears off and thinking returns, that some people try to make sense of it as if it's some kind of realization.  The realization is really about knowing you have this potential for emotional bliss and how it manifests itself.

 

OK...

 

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The reason I said it's like a drug is because it has exactly the same characteristics, from the instant high to the way it dissipates, to the withdrawal symptoms later.  I feel that is during the withdrawal part, when thinking returns that what are called realizations come.  Now we just need to find out what drug it is, it must be one that the human body can produce.

 

No, I am referring to the fact that I experienced this after taking a single psilocybin mushroom in a ritual setting (it was originally supposed to be ayuhuasca) . The point is that due to this, the majority of members here have written off my experience as being drug inspired, whereas you seem to believe that my experience was a real glimpse of an awakened state. Now, I have been advised that one of the dangers in the case of ingesting hallucinogens such as Psilocybin is the fact that there is no way to calculate the proportion of the active ingredient in any given mushroom, so potentially one single mushroom could contain the same percentage of the active principle as several, or even hundreds. I can attest to this, having literally taken hundreds at a time in my youth, and the strength of this single mushroom was no less powerful - hence my own doubts...

However, that said, I still feel that the entire experience should be credited with more than a purely drug induced hallucination, because of several factors. One is the effect it produced, and another is the clarity of the memory several years later.

To return to your point, I agree with what you are saying regarding the point at which the actual realizations come being after the experience during the phase of returning to normal waking consciousness. And I understand how the feeling might be mistaken for a realization...

 

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Just a get rich quick scheme.  There's a retired chi kung master here in town and he told me that when he was younger and had more power that he could induce an enlightenment experience in students using energy and intent.  He found out right away that it was a waste of energy because most students weren't able to do anything with it.

 

That is probably because he lacked the discernment to know which of these students was actually at the point of being able to reap any benefit from such a transmission. It would be a mistake I feel to simply write every aspirant off on the grounds of his past experience with students who were not yet at the required level to benefit from such transmissions.

 

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Mental bliss can happen after a person masters non thinking during daily activities,  Then thinking can return and not stir them out of stillness.  Mental bliss is an intense enjoyment of thinking itself.

 

I would question that statement. After all, the objective of these practices is to go beyond the thinking mind, therefore mental bliss still arising from the dualistic ego could be seen to lead to further delusion. Even feeling as you call it is no more than a sensory expression of the dualistic mind and so not what we should be looking for in this practice.

[Spotless]

On 2/3/2017 at 4:57 AM, kāvēri said:

 

I am ignorant on Doa.  These are just eager questions to understand.  I hope no one misunderstands or misinterprets any intention to ask these questions.

 

When I keep hearing Dao, it sounds similar to the state of enlightenment or a state of peacefulness despite what happens around me.  This thread was about cultivating enlightenment.  I hear a lot of Dao.   I can't help but think these two if not the exact same, must be similar.   Is this a correct observation?

 

1) Do I have to 'not think' and 'not ponder' to understand Dao?    Right now my mind is consumed by  thinking and pondering.   How can I get to the place where I don't have to think or ponder?  I am simply not there as far as I know.

2) Do I have to 'not engage' in willful action to be peaceful in Dao?  Right now, I engage in lot of wilful actions.  How do I get to the state to 'not engage' in wilful actions?

3) Is 'taking no route' and 'using no method' the only ways to arrive at Dao?

Imagine you are a large tub of air - in it are thousands of miniature vortex's - each you call an "I" and you flit from one to another.

You can have your toe in several at the same time - and you think you control it but do not realize that simple fluxuations in the atmosphere are what actually determines in which "I"s you are identified with at any given time.

 

You set your alarm at night in one group of "I"s - lets say those "I"s are real gung ho and they set the alarm at 5am.

 

Then the alarm goes off in the morning - but the "I" or "I"s that have you now decide 5am is nuts and hit the delay button twice.

 

This is your life - this is the illusiion.

 

All of the vortex's are positions - past and future - beliefs - you are vested in these things, these concepts. And it is the general notion that one must be vested or they are a wimp. You are not allowed to be a fence sitter and if you are not vested in a concept or belief (a whole herd of them) then you are a fence sitter according to popular assumption and need to get a life.

 

But - you do not need to be vested - in fact upon Awakening and in Enlightenment you will not be vested - it is in this that the words "stillness" and "empty" come.

 

vortex's bump into each other - they densify the Presence that you are - they divert and they hurry you elsewhere. Upon the dissipation of these - you will know emptiness.

 

Notice in your "thinking" if you do not go round and round in the subject - and more and more often when you come back to that thought/subject you have readymade sentence structures and concepts and judgements - they get better and better and more honed and more and more positioned - you become quite adept at speaking about them. The loops of thinking fly out of you perfectly as though you are a really sharp witted person. They become your identity - they are who you see yourself as and how others reflect upon you - others will begin vibrating your strongest or weakest assets (vortex's) depending on their relationship with you - and they will do this unknowingly - they cannot do otherwise - it is pecking order that goes on constantly. Pecking order, instinctual reaction, etc.....

 

 

A person does something awful - lets say they kill someone or perhaps shoots a poodle for fun.

You can hate that person, you can imagine all sorts of scenario's for what should be done to them - or you can see that they are terribly beside themselves and imbalanced and have considerable issues that have walled them off from the more reasonable insanity of the norm. You are still fully capable of doing what ever it takes to apprehend them and support a level of attention that should be afforded them - but taking a position and hating them does nothing. You are already seeing them in past.

 

You can think and observe but you do not have to create beliefs - you do not have to become invested in your observations - they are already in the past. This does not mean you cannot see something if you do not label it and concoct a story to it.

It does not mean you cannot impart your observations to others. It does not mean you are dull or non-commital - but this is what the vortex's will notice if you are not participating in them.

 

If you Awaken - you may still have many "I"s taunting you to willfulness and position.

 

Begin by seeing that you do not have to participate in these positions - mind loops.

 

The mind is not needed 99.9% of the time. Yet most live in the illusion of mind - abiding in insanity. They are born, learn the trance of their natural genetics and culture, fortify all the positions until they are deadened, leadened and opaque.

 

Cultivation helps to lighten and seep Presence - Grace is found in what we ask for - ask well.

 

 

 

 

 

[Fa Xin]

Nice post spotless.

 

also it's important to be said that the mind still functions - even better - once you let the mind loops stop running the show. 

 

Sometimes people will have great fear before letting these go. In my experience, the fear was regarding not being able to access any of my old memories or information that I may need. There was fear that they would disappear completely. They did not. 

 

that being said, you must be willing to lose it, in the end. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Fa Xin