Attainment of full enlightenment through Cultivation

[DSCB57]

 

I don't know what is Samsara?

 

Samsara is the Buddhist term which means being bound to the wheel of rebirth, it is the world of delusion to which we are chained by our dualistic perceptions until we become realised and attain Nirvana - liberation from Samsara. In Samsaric existence we are also subject to the Law of Karma - cause and effect, and this is what causes us to continue to be reborn in the different realms and endless different forms until we desire to become liberated and freed from suffering and ignorance. 

 

There is no desire in becoming immortal.

 

You must be mislead by some methods , like imagining to be one with some specific immortal.

 

That is not I talk about. That is a fake method. Use imagination to fool our mind.

 

Thank you for clarifying that. 

 

 

Yes, there must be some method, the method is "no method", ha.

 

I don't cheat you.

 

That is how I cultivate every day.

 

Wu Wei

 

 

No doubt from an enlightened or already awakened perspective one can speak in terms of the method which is 'no method'. Gautama Buddha also speaks in similar terms. But this concept is difficult for the un-awakened mind to grasp, because it is still stuck within the illusion of duality. In a way I think I do understand what you mean, yet I also understand that conceptual understanding will get me nowhere - this has to be experienced in order to truly understand. 

 

I wrote a lot in my space, please read it.

 

How "no methods" is the method of the dao.

 

 

I have read much of your material, but I still cannot grasp the meaning fully. There are obscurations which cloud my ability to perceive everything with clarity. 

 

[DSCB57]

We had very similar experiences. I swore to spend the rest of my life in attaining this stage organically - and I did and very far beyond. Though in the last large paragraph you put a great deal of the cart before the horse.

 

Would you care to explain your reference to my 'putting the cart before the horse' in the last paragraph please, or at least give me a more specific reference to go on? And would you care to share how you went about recreating your experience organically - I presume that is what you meant? And may I ask in hindsight - how far removed was your previous experience from the organic version? I suppose I am also asking how far removed my description of my experience is from your organic experience .

[Brian]

What is your definition of enlightenment firstly so we can fit to the proper tradition with your ideas of enlightenment.

 

 

Only cessation of fetters/hindrances of the mind brings enlightenment. No other way around.

How curious -- it's like the second half of this post is in reply to the first.

[Spotless]

Would you care to explain your reference to my 'putting the cart before the horse' in the last paragraph please, or at least give me a more specific reference to go on? And would you care to share how you went about recreating your experience organically - I presume that is what you meant? And may I ask in hindsight - how far removed was your previous experience from the organic version? I suppose I am also asking how far removed my description of my experience is from your organic experience .

Regarding "putting the cart before the horse":

 

When you went on to say:

"One is able to perceive all possibilities, all existence, all dimensions simultaneously. One becomes Universal Consciousness, and is able to know all that there is to know and experience all that there is to experience with no atachment to ideas or concepts or imaginings. This is a state of understanding all natural laws and experiencing the true nature of Self. This is pure consciousness in which one experiences both being and not being, the void and all that is contained in the void. The veil is lifted for all time, and once this is embodied in one's mundane existence it remains beyond concepts, because this experience has resulted in a permanent change in one's very being - a change which can be used to benefit all life everywhere. You now understand the cause and effect underlying everything - every event. There is no further seeking, no attachment, no fear, everything simply is as it should be and one is perfectly in harmony with all natural laws and all other beings, because the realization that there is no separation is now experiential rather than purely conceptual. There are no longer any limits to one's capabilities because that to is an imaginary concept. One can simply delight in observing the endless flow of life through everything - everything in constant motion - everything interconnected with everything else, and that same consciousness that is all there is is interwoven within every fibre of the very fabric of existence." End Quote

 

Let's say its all true - it will not come across in any way what so ever in the form you have placed it - even when you are in it these words would strike you as fun words. But ask yourself - what good does this do in NOW? It does organize certain assumptions and creates barriers to your thinking. It is nice and tidy - should be able to strike down anyone that does not meet the criteria as you have assumed it. It limits your teachers, your reading and your interchange because you are under the certain illusion that you know something about this now. Yet every sage and Enlightened Master has said "I know nothing" in some very clear form or another. Concentrate on that - that is a key pointer.

 

---

 

I was well read in my late teens on these subjects and took some Mushrooms somewhere in the 19-21 time frame - I'm 62 and settled into an Awakened State about 5 years ago. Much of what I experienced on mushrooms I gained a long time ago. Oneness has been with me for a very long time.

 

---

 

The organic experience if much more comprehensive.

If any one component would stand out in both - it might be "no-effort" - do you remember being in any effort then?

Edited February 2, 2017 by Spotless

[dwai]

Hi everyone. I would like to know which forms of Cultivation lead to full enlightenment rather than earthbound immortality? What does the method consist of in these practices?

 

David

 

Just go back to the "I" and rest the mind in it - it is ever present (Presence). Don't know about immortality...but this will lead to dropping of the mind and the "I" transforming into the primordial source. 

But this is a constant practice...to stay in the "I" state (without anything else).

How to get to the "I"? Find the witness that is experiencing the world through your senses and mind.

For some it seems to be easy. For me it was easy too (just observing the breath), but I didn't know what this was - was too caught up in "methods" and "techniques".

 

So full circle back was after many years...but all part of my karma. Now it is about staying present always. Little by little is is becoming easier.

[Gerard]

Fixed link. Thanks Bindi.

[[email protected]]

Yes, there must be some method, the method is "no method", ha.

 

I don't cheat you.

 

That is how I cultivate every day.

If someone practices something without any concrete method then there is a little chance to achieve a result. It's like you want to go somewhere but do not have a road.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Taoist Texts]

If someone practices something without any concrete method then there is a little chance to achieve a result. It's like you want to go somewhere but do not have a road.

 

 

King Huang said, “Without thinking and without pondering, you will understand Dao. Without conducting and without acting, you will be peaceful in Dao. Taking no route and using no method, you will arrive at Dao.

https://books.google.ru/books?id=0w6NfKhM6xQC&pg=PA282&lpg=PA282&dq=dao+no+method&source=bl&ots=fFS1hrI4mM&sig=RcjO_RmXhqgZNfdeKIe1y5zlajs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLvabGrPHRAhXlHpoKHQwuDowQ6AEIOzAG#v=onepage&q=dao%20no%20method&f=false

[Spotless]

King Huang said, “Without thinking and without pondering, you will understand Dao. Without conducting and without acting, you will be peaceful in Dao. Taking no route and using no method, you will arrive at Dao.

https://books.google.ru/books?id=0w6NfKhM6xQC&pg=PA282&lpg=PA282&dq=dao+no+method&source=bl&ots=fFS1hrI4mM&sig=RcjO_RmXhqgZNfdeKIe1y5zlajs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLvabGrPHRAhXlHpoKHQwuDowQ6AEIOzAG#v=onepage&q=dao%20no%20method&f=false

These are words of wisdom but let's look at them from another aspect:

 

Without thinking and without pondering (without concepts), you will understand Dao. Without conducting (controlling) and without acting (willfulness), you will be peaceful in Dao. Taking no route (this is not linear) and using no method (do not become attached to form) you will arrive at Dao.[/size]

[DSCB57]

Regarding "putting the cart before the horse":

 

When you went on to say:

"One is able to perceive all possibilities, all existence, all dimensions simultaneously. One becomes Universal Consciousness, and is able to know all that there is to know and experience all that there is to experience with no atachment to ideas or concepts or imaginings. This is a state of understanding all natural laws and experiencing the true nature of Self. This is pure consciousness in which one experiences both being and not being, the void and all that is contained in the void. The veil is lifted for all time, and once this is embodied in one's mundane existence it remains beyond concepts, because this experience has resulted in a permanent change in one's very being - a change which can be used to benefit all life everywhere. You now understand the cause and effect underlying everything - every event. There is no further seeking, no attachment, no fear, everything simply is as it should be and one is perfectly in harmony with all natural laws and all other beings, because the realization that there is no separation is now experiential rather than purely conceptual. There are no longer any limits to one's capabilities because that to is an imaginary concept. One can simply delight in observing the endless flow of life through everything - everything in constant motion - everything interconnected with everything else, and that same consciousness that is all there is is interwoven within every fibre of the very fabric of existence." End Quote

 

Let's say its all true - it will not come across in any way what so ever in the form you have placed it - even when you are in it these words would strike you as fun words. But ask yourself - what good does this do in NOW? It does organize certain assumptions and creates barriers to your thinking. It is nice and tidy - should be able to strike down anyone that does not meet the criteria as you have assumed it. It limits your teachers, your reading and your interchange because you are under the certain illusion that you know something about this now. Yet every sage and Enlightened Master has said "I know nothing" in some very clear form or another. Concentrate on that - that is a key pointer.

 

 

I agree that now it is a hindrance, and as I also said, it also caused me a great deal of suffering - or perhaps better stated 'dis-consolation (is there such a word?)' when I became a Christian and compared my spiritual experiences with that. Of course everything fell far short of that experience. But still, one key point is that my impression which I have been able to put in writing arose from that experience. And it was an experience, not merely imagined. But then again all you say regarding the way in which it subsequently limits my interactions with teachers, teachings etc., is quite true. Except that I am not obliged to use that experience as a yardstick for every situation, and in fact I do not. It is only my personal yardstick for the experience of oneness, non dualistic being or whatever you want to call it - Union with the Absolute...

I admit to a certain amount of clinging to that experience, but I would not say that it makes me think I actually 'know' anything. The more I learn, the more I realise how little I know. 

---

 

I was well read in my late teens on these subjects and took some Mushrooms somewhere in the 19-21 time frame - I'm 62 and settled into an Awakened State about 5 years ago. Much of what I experienced on mushrooms I gained a long time ago. Oneness has been with me for a very long time.

 

 

Another similarity in our experiences. In my teens I did a significant amount of experimentation with various hallucinogenic substances, not only mushrooms. I would also consider myself well read on most subjects from the metaphysical to the mystical, but once in my 20's I became more and more involved in Chinese martial arts and Qigong/Neigong practices etc,, whilst also developing my skills as a musician. However I was always severely hampered by ill-health and still am. I will be 60 this year. But unlike you, I have remained in my dualistic reality. 

---

The organic experience if much more comprehensive and dwarfs your experience very considerably.

If any one component would stand out in both - it might be "no-effort" - do you remember being in any effort then?

 

 

Thank you for providing insight as to the organic experience, it helps put my own experience in perspective, which is actually encouraging. You are asking whether any effort was required on my part during the experience i described? My answer would be no, none whatsoever as far as I recall. But the euphoria was incredibly strong. I felt no need to resist anything I was experiencing, I simply accepted it and surrendered myself to it entirely. The only effort was in allowing myself to return to a 'normal' state afterwards - I simply did not want to allow that bliss to slip away. 

Incidentally regarding my description of the nectar dripping onto my tongue...I have also experienced this through a technique into which I was personally initiated by Guru Maharaji back in the 80's, it was simply called 'Knowledge'. I was a form of Raja Yoga which involved blocking out the 5 senses. I experienced that the first time I practised the technique. This was some time before my mushroom assisted experience. 

[Bearded Dragon]

Forget about all the garbage that you mentioned and just start by finding you you are that doesn't change. Awareness/consciousness. This has nothing to do with energy work as it is a process of clearing one's mentality until realisation is made. This is not to be understood by the mind. It is awareness being self-aware, NOT the mind seeing awareness. Some do seated meditation but it's not necessary (although sometimes I sit extremely casually and bask in awareness, but this is spontaneous). Meditation is a convergence on your natural state of being, and as such you can be in your natural state at any time in any circumstances. The only requirement is that you drop everything along the way. It's all got to go. Burn the whole forest down and you'll see it pop back in full abundance.

 

In any case, you have to have the process going all the time such that it eventually self-perpetuates. Otherwise you're just wasting your time. This is why I advocate using every-day circumstances as means for refinement. For me it's exponential. These days I've got so much energy being released all the time that I'm forced to take on some methods of cultivation and energy work just to help deal with it all. This energy work is as a support due to the process taking up maybe 90% of my available energy, not as a means towards realisation.

 

Anyway, finding essence is entry level. How are you meant to take a step when you don't know whose legs to operate?

[Jetsun]

The best method I know is to really truthfully meditate on what you honestly want, what you want from this life. If you really, truthfully want enlightenment above everything else including money, women, family, achievement, recognition, avoidance, healing, peace, then you will get it. Hardly anyone really wants it though, or they want it on their own terms.

 

If you really want it you will do anything to get it including giving anything up and more crucially you will take enlightenment on its own terms rather than impose preconceptions on what it should look like.

[DSCB57]

King Huang said, “Without thinking and without pondering, you will understand Dao. Without conducting and without acting, you will be peaceful in Dao. Taking no route and using no method, you will arrive at Dao.

https://books.google.ru/books?id=0w6NfKhM6xQC&pg=PA282&lpg=PA282&dq=dao+no+method&source=bl&ots=fFS1hrI4mM&sig=RcjO_RmXhqgZNfdeKIe1y5zlajs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLvabGrPHRAhXlHpoKHQwuDowQ6AEIOzAG#v=onepage&q=dao%20no%20method&f=false

 

You see, this is what makes the Taoist path so difficult to comprehend, especially for the western mind. It is inscrutable. No matter how much I have read, such as the Yijing, Daodejing etc., it remains the same. These sages are making declarations based upon their own understanding, from their enlightened perspective. Most of you are doing the same. But how does that help someone who is unable to understand or grasp the real meaning behind the words? Is that the fault of the student or the communicator? To my mind a great teacher is one who is capable of expounding great truths with simplicity in such a way as to make that information available and comprehensible to anyone, as well as being able to teach on different levels using the same words, according to the level of those who are hearing them. 

Taking myself as an example, I think I have a pretty good grasp of English, it is my own language after all. Yet those who have translated or transliterated these texts have done so in such a way as to convey very little meaning to me. Unless I were able to read and understand the original texts in Mandarin Chinese - and I believe that to most Chinese this is just as difficult a task - I have no way of knowing to what degree the original meaning has been conveyed in the translation. But I wonder how many of you are being honest when you say you really understand what is being said. 

 

To put this another way: let us imagine that someone totally ignorant of this or any other tradition comes across Taoism in their search for wisdom, truth or whatever. Do you believe that these words would have any real meaning to them? Do you think that this would provide such a person with anything more than a tenuous flowery, perhaps poetic impression to guide them along the path?

Elsewhere in another thread someone spoke of the necessity to put these ideas into the modern vernacular, to make them fit in with the world we actually live in. I suppose that is really what I am trying to get at. 

Honestly reading some of your posts it is like being confronted with a serious of Koans, anyone of which may have the potential to bring about enlightenment, but also may well not provide the right conditions. I think perhaps the subject is so nebulous that it really cannot be explained in any straightforward and fully comprehensible language. OK, I get it, it cannot be grasped or understood by the mind. So what else is there?

[s1va]

They are the same thing.

 

No methods.

 

If there are "No methods", then why am I not enlightened (or feel not enlightened)?   If there is going to be a suggestion, that I am enlightened and I just don't know I am enlightened, then how do I know it?  If there is an answer to the preceding question, I would consider that a "Method".

Edited February 2, 2017 by Cauvery

[awaken]

No methods.

 

But it has rules.

 

For example, methods like architecture， is man-made, controlled by ego.

 

Rules like physics, is from nature, we can't 'do' anything, just observe it and follow its rules.

 

Can we say follow the rules of nature is a methods?

 

If we have to use a name to discribe the way, we may say it is Wu Wei.

 

Wu Wei doesn't mean non-doing , it means that after knowing the rules of the nature, we follow the rules.

 

For example,The rules of Ying and yang, the rules of lead and Mercury , the rules of heart and kidney, the rules of qi....

 

If we know the rules of nature, we don't need to use a dead method to do all the process that a teacher said.

 

Take another example,

 

If we like music, but we don't know anything about how to create a song, we can just listen to music, or we can sing the songs made by others.

 

But if we know the rules or essence of music, we may create a song or a music very easy.

 

We can create unlimited songs.

 

Take another example,

 

A physics don't create a rule of physics, he discover it.

 

But a architect create a design of building.

 

We can create numerous methods, but we can't change the rules of dao.

 

If we know the rules of dao, who need the methods?

 

We even can create numberous methods by ourself.

 

If we can create methods, why should we chase other people's methods?

 

I have chased methods for 15 years.

 

After I gave up all the methods.

 

I found the rules little by little.

 

I don't teach my students methods.

 

I can create a lot of secret methods to fool people and make money.

 

But I don't do it.

Edited February 2, 2017 by awaken

[s1va]

No methods.

 

But it has rules.

 

For example, methods like architecture， is man-made, controlled by ego.

 

Rules like physics, is from nature, we can't 'do' anything, just observe it and follow its rules.

 

 

 

I like your post, the message that you want to convey.   There is a small distinction, let's say technicality, in what we call as "Method".

 

From your words, "just observe and follow it's rules":  The 'observe and follow rules' is a method in and of itself to me.  Yes, following rules of nature or following anything for that matter is a method to me. 

 

In physics, you mention discovery.  This is a result of  'observation' or some other process.  Is observation not a process?  To me, It is a process.

 

For following any rule, we have to understand the rule first and then apply it.  I call this as 'Method'.   We can go all day talking about this, 'Method' or 'No Method'.  Which one of this will bring forth results, or which one is the path to Enlightenment.  The moment we quantify and discuss something as solution, it has already become 'Method' to me, right at the point where we discussed.  I can agree with no method, if we all keep silence.  Not even talk about the silence.

 

'you found rules little by little by dropping methods'.  that looks like a systematic process that occurred in you.   This conscious dropping of all methods (decision/conclusion on mind's part to drop 'methods') and following the rules, certainly sounds like a method to me.

 

You are stating/suggesting here in a forum topic,(a topic on attainment of enlightenment)  to "drop all methods and follow the rule".  I see the message that your post coveys as a "Method" of it's own.

 

I would agree that we disagree (or have different opinion) on naming something as "Method" or "No Method".

Edited February 2, 2017 by Cauvery

[awaken]

Buddha said 法即非法，methods are not methods

 

We also can explain it as

 

Dharma is no method

 

If we ignore our true inside and chase the outside methods, it just like we are wearing a shoes that is not suitable for us.

 

Every moment we are now is different, but there is some rules never change.

 

Dead methods will pull our qi or will to a place that we may not need right now.

 

Our qi has a process of changes, we need to find more basic rules to let the qi go its own way.

 

We should not use any men-made methods to disturb it.

 

For example, a rule of Ying yang,

 

陽極生陰，陰極生陽

 

When the yang comes to end, Ying appear.

 

When the Ying comes to end, yang appear.

 

Everyone know the rules, but how many people know how to follow the rule of Ying yang?

 

I saw so many people only practice yang qi, but ignore Ying qi.

 

When the yang stop working, they think the process is end.

 

Their teacher also only teach them the methods of controlling qi.

 

After the qi stop , they think the practicing is end.

 

That is the biggest problem that I saw.

 

Many people don't treat Hun dun as the process of chi.

Edited February 2, 2017 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

 To put this another way: let us imagine that someone totally ignorant of this or any other tradition comes across Taoism in their search for wisdom, truth or whatever. Do you believe that these words would have any real meaning to them?  

Good question.

 

You see, these words are a solution. A solution never makes sense on its own. To understand a solution, you need to match it with a problem. Try to define  your problem. Then the solution will make sense.

[Spotless]

You see, this is what makes the Taoist path so difficult to comprehend, especially for the western mind. It is inscrutable. No matter how much I have read, such as the Yijing, Daodejing etc., it remains the same. These sages are making declarations based upon their own understanding, from their enlightened perspective. Most of you are doing the same. But how does that help someone who is unable to understand or grasp the real meaning behind the words? Is that the fault of the student or the communicator? To my mind a great teacher is one who is capable of expounding great truths with simplicity in such a way as to make that information available and comprehensible to anyone, as well as being able to teach on different levels using the same words, according to the level of those who are hearing them.

Taking myself as an example, I think I have a pretty good grasp of English, it is my own language after all. Yet those who have translated or transliterated these texts have done so in such a way as to convey very little meaning to me. Unless I were able to read and understand the original texts in Mandarin Chinese - and I believe that to most Chinese this is just as difficult a task - I have no way of knowing to what degree the original meaning has been conveyed in the translation. But I wonder how many of you are being honest when you say you really understand what is being said.

 

To put this another way: let us imagine that someone totally ignorant of this or any other tradition comes across Taoism in their search for wisdom, truth or whatever. Do you believe that these words would have any real meaning to them? Do you think that this would provide such a person with anything more than a tenuous flowery, perhaps poetic impression to guide them along the path?

Elsewhere in another thread someone spoke of the necessity to put these ideas into the modern vernacular, to make them fit in with the world we actually live in. I suppose that is really what I am trying to get at.

Honestly reading some of your posts it is like being confronted with a serious of Koans, anyone of which may have the potential to bring about enlightenment, but also may well not provide the right conditions. I think perhaps the subject is so nebulous that it really cannot be explained in any straightforward and fully comprehensible language. OK, I get it, it cannot be grasped or understood by the mind. So what else is there?

This is fair angst - it is at a point of taking a hammer and trying to beat the square peg into the round hole.

You have been asking questions for which there is no answer you will accept. You truly believe this is not "necessarily the case".

You believe it is not necessarily the case because you live in futures and pasts. In the Now you are asking questions for which there are no answers "you" will accept.

 

What is the perfect car?

What is the perfect road?

What is the perfect banana?

 

Put aside your quest (willfulness) and find simple practice. You will find your answers - they will be perfectly imperfect - and you will transcend each of them again and again.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Spotless

[dawei]

If someone practices something without any concrete method then there is a little chance to achieve a result. It's like you want to go somewhere but do not have a road.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

 

If there are "No methods", then why am I not enlightened (or feel not enlightened)?   If there is going to be a suggestion, that I am enlightened and I just don't know I am enlightened, then how do I know it?  If there is an answer to the preceding question, I would consider that a "Method".

 

Why do we seek methods?  

 

Simply because we are not sure what to do...

 

where is it we want the 'doing' to go?  Do we even have a place to 'go' to ?

 

These are simply symptoms of separation.

 

Ergo... 

 

You see, these words are a solution. A solution never makes sense on its own. To understand a solution, you need to match it with a problem. Try to define  your problem. Then the solution will make sense.

[s1va]

Buddha said 法即非法，methods are not methods

 

 

 

Why did Buddha make those statements?  Why was he simply not silent?

 

If there is no method or no effort, then what is the point in discussing this in a forum?  Why the need to convey this "no method" on a forum post asking about attaining enlightenment through cultivation?

 

If there is no cultivation, no method, no effort, then the OP, rest assured will attain enlightenment; if he has not already attained it by reading, "no method" posts.

 

Let's say, we both agree that there is no method.  Why are we talking or discussing about it.

 

Do you want people to drop methods?  Is that the method (dropping methods) which worked for you?

 

I have read tons of books lecturing or saying that seeking enlightenment will not bring any results.  May be so.  But let me ask a question with the following quote.  At the penalty of repeating this quote on this forum again, I put forth this question to you?  

Please read the following quote.   What is the need to state or lecture or even state that there is "no method"?  This question is not just to you, it is to Buddha also.

 

 

A wise man once said, there is no need to give any lectures (or engage in any discussion) at all. One who has not seen the truth is not qualified to give lectures to others. One who has seen the truth knows there is no otherness, when there are no others (otherness), who should he give the lecture to?

Edited February 2, 2017 by Cauvery

[dwai]

Just read this exchange between a teacher and his student relevant to this topic (from the book Wake up and Roar) --

 

 

First locate where you are, and then we can find the distance to where we have to proceed. Let us see where we are just now, on the map, and then we will see where we have to go. I is a place where you presently are, isn’t it? Yes. So find out; let your thought go toward the I and see what happens.

 

 Empty! 

 

Ah. Right, right, very good answer. So I is empty. You send your mind to find the source of the I, the source of your being, the source of everything, and you said, “Empty.”

 

Now, from this emptiness let us proceed. First you turned to face the light. You turned to face your Self. From there, from emptiness, now face the other side, the wrong side, where you see bodies, sweater, house, car, wife. You slowly step out of this emptiness and tell me what you see. You see it from emptiness now. What are you going to see? 

 

Now. 

 

Emptiness is always now, yes. Never then. So step out of this now. Proceed out of now and tell me where you go. Beyond this instant, what do you see? 

 

[long silence] I feel thoughts coming up. 

 

Let them come. Within emptiness, thoughts come. Within emptiness, what do they represent? Within the ocean, waves come. What do they represent? Within the emptiness, thoughts come. What do they represent? The mind? From the ocean waves arise, stay, move, and fall. 

 

Still emptiness.

 

 

Good. All the waves that come from emptiness must be empty. Just as the waves that come from the ocean must be water only. They cannot be stones. Now, you bring a thought from emptiness which is not empty. Try it and investigate. There is nothing there! Very good. You have done the job. And that is your nature. This is what you are. You have to wake up. You are consciousness. You are empty. You are just in this moment only. Whenever you see name and form you are sleeping. What do you see in the world without name and form?

[s1va]

Why do we seek methods?  

 

Simply because we are not sure what to do...

 

where is it we want the 'doing' to go?  Do we even have a place to 'go' to ?

 

These are simply symptoms of separation.

 

Ergo... 

 

Who is the observer from whom these observations come forth?  What was the need for the observer to make these observations?

[awaken]

Why did Buddha make those statements? Why was he simply not silent?

 

If there is no method or no effort, then what is the point in discussing this in a forum? Why the need to convey this "no method" on a forum post asking about attaining enlightenment through cultivation?

 

If there is no cultivation, no method, no effort, then the OP, rest assured will attain enlightenment; if he has not already attained it by reading, "no method" posts.

 

Let's say, we both agree that there is no method. Why are we talking or discussing about it.

 

Do you want people to drop methods? Is that the method (dropping methods) which worked for you?

 

I have read tons of books lecturing or saying that seeking enlightenment will not bring any results. May be so. But let me ask the following quote. At the penalty of repeating this quote on this forum again, I put forth this question to you? Please read the following? What is the need to state or lecture that there is "no method"? This question is not just to you, it is to Buddha also.

I spent 15 years to chase methods.

 

If you like to spend 15 years to chase methods, that is your choice.

 

Maybe you need 30 years or more...

 

Many people chase methods all their life,

 

And they also have a happy life.

 

I don't teach every student.

 

Because someone do 'need' methods.

 

So in Daoist , the sage said 上士，中士，下士

 

High people, middle people, low people

 

Everyone is different.

[s1va]

I spent 15 years to chase methods.

 

If you like to spend 15 years to chase methods, that is your choice.

 

Maybe you need 30 years or more...

 

Many people chase methods all their life,

 

And they also have a happy life.

 

I don't teach every student.

 

Because someone do 'need' methods.

 

So in Daoist , the sage said 上士，中士，下士

 

High people, middle people, low people

 

Everyone is different.

 

I am not arguing with you about 'methods' or 'no methods'.  I truly do not care in this 'method/no method' discussion.  If you think there should be "no methods" that's fine by me.  My question to you again and again is the following.  Who was the "I" that chased for methods for so many years?   Who was the "I" that decided that there are no methods?  Why the need to discuss the "no method" when there is no method?

 

 If you truly know that there is no method then there would be no need to discuss about it, with people who particularly believe that there are methods and seeking ways to cultivate.  Are you making the statements about "no methods" to redeem the people that follow "methods"?

 

I am going to make the following observation or quote one more time and rest my case on this topic!

 

 

A wise man once said, there is no need to give any lectures (or engage in any discussion) at all. One who has not seen the truth is not qualified to give lectures to others. One who has seen the truth knows there is no otherness, when there are no others (otherness), who should he give the lecture to?

Edited February 4, 2017 by Cauvery