Attainment of full enlightenment through Cultivation

[Wu Ming Jen]

“Abandon enlightenment and walk freely”. Enlightenment is a name not something attainable, not a thing

 

As the great Adept Dilgo Khyentse so well phrased it: “The everyday practice . . . is just everyday life itself. Since the undeveloped state does not exist, there is no need to behave in any special way or attempt to attain anything above and beyond what you actually are. There should be no feeling of striving to reach some “amazing goal” or “advanced state”. To strive for such a state is a neurosis which only conditions us and serves to obstruct the free flow of Mind. We should also avoid thinking of ourselves as worthless persons – we are naturally free and unconditioned. We are intrinsically enlightened and lack nothing.”

[s1va]

Welcome to read my posts and practice with me on line

 

http://www.thedaobum...rum/487-awaken/

 

The dao bums

513532775

 

This is my qq group

 

Welcome to join me

 

That above is your signature.  What do you want people to practice with you?  Practice "No Method".

 

Learn about  "No Method" and practice it with you?  Can "No Method" be practiced? 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Cauvery

[s1va]

I don't teach every student.

 

 

 

I can't resist but ask, what are you teaching to the students that you chose to teach? 

 

I see from your PPF that you are teaching something wonderful.  Something that I really want to try.  To learn.  A "method" or a "process" that I want to try and learn, no matter what name it is called (I don't care if it is called "No Method", I still think what you are teaching in your PPF is great!).

Edited February 2, 2017 by Cauvery

[dawei]

Who is the observer from whom these observations come forth?  What was the need for the observer to make these observations?

 

One first observes it like a desire or obsession or need... and then loses that observation... as if there is no-desire, no-obsession, no-need... and then one acknowledges that observation of desire, obsession or need... 

 

Method or no method is being caught up in duality...   the step from one side to another is a shift... a shift to what ? 

[Bindi]

IMO in duality the only thing that can be affected is duality. Examining what constitutes the dual self, the emotional hijackers, the mind, the ego, will ultimately cause the false dual self to collapse, and what is left will be the True Self, with a mind that has become wise, and with self serving ego transformed into compassion.

[s1va]

Posted Yesterday, 05:25 PM

Cauvery, on 02 Feb 2017 - 1:39 PM, said:

Who is the observer from whom these observations come forth?  What was the need for the observer to make these observations?

 

One first observes it like a desire or obsession or need... and then loses that observation... as if there is no-desire, no-obsession, no-need... and then one acknowledges that observation of desire, obsession or need... 

 

Method or no method is being caught up in duality...   the step from one side to another is a shift... a shift to what ? 

 

Sorry, you are talking about something that is totally not relevant to the question that was put forth above.  Yet, you have quoted the question above.  Which implies your text is relevant to the question posted above.

 

Your writing says, "One first observes........"

 

That original question remains unaddressed, while your post is talking about getting caught on "Method" vs "No Method"......

 

The original question was, "Who is the observer making these observations?"

 

Let me rephrase based on your new text.  What or who is the "One" that you have mentioned that first observes?  Where does this "One" reside?  Inside you or out in the world?  Who is the observer of the observations?  And to whom are the observations made?   To the observer himself?  If not, to who? 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Cauvery

[s1va]

These are words of wisdom but let's look at them from another aspect:

 

Without thinking and without pondering (without concepts), you will understand Dao. Without conducting (controlling) and without acting (willfulness), you will be peaceful in Dao. Taking no route (this is not linear) and using no method (do not become attached to form) you will arrive at Dao.[/size]

 

I am ignorant on Doa.  These are just eager questions to understand.  I hope no one misunderstands or misinterprets any intention to ask these questions.

 

When I keep hearing Dao, it sounds similar to the state of enlightenment or a state of peacefulness despite what happens around me.  This thread was about cultivating enlightenment.  I hear a lot of Dao.   I can't help but think these two if not the exact same, must be similar.   Is this a correct observation?

 

1) Do I have to 'not think' and 'not ponder' to understand Dao?    Right now my mind is consumed by  thinking and pondering.   How can I get to the place where I don't have to think or ponder?  I am simply not there as far as I know.

2) Do I have to 'not engage' in willful action to be peaceful in Dao?  Right now, I engage in lot of wilful actions.  How do I get to the state to 'not engage' in wilful actions?

3) Is 'taking no route' and 'using no method' the only ways to arrive at Dao?

[[email protected]]

King Huang said, “Without thinking and without pondering, you will understand Dao. Without conducting and without acting, you will be peaceful in Dao. Taking no route and using no method, you will arrive at Dao.

May be you have already arrived to Dao, without method and road?

If so, then may be you are already free from sleeping or taking food?

Edited February 3, 2017 by [email protected]

[Taoist Texts]

 

May be you have already arrived to Dao, without method and road?

 

 

Of course i did.

 

If so, then may be you are already free from sleeping or taking food?

 

 

Hehe, dao has very little to do with superpowers. But actually i can go without food  for 3 weeks easily. Does that count?

[Arkady Shadursky]

The one who really attained Dao obviously should have following knowledge:

1. Perfect knowledge of Chinese and Ancient Chinese
2. Perfect understanding of all the symbolic meanings behind Chinese characters
3. Deep understanding of basic Taoism concepts (HeTu 河圖, Lo Shu 洛書, Bagua 八卦)
4. Deep understanding of Yin Yang principle

So it seems to me that "dao" of TT has nothing in common with Taoist Dao which Huang Di was talking about.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong and TT can demonstrate his Yangshen abilities and manifest right in front of me,

so we can discuss this interesting topic in person?   
---
Best Regards,
Arkady

Edited February 3, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[[email protected]]

Of course i did.

If you have reached Dao can you explain what have you obtained?

Or the answer will be smth like Dao put in words is not the constant Dao...?

[Mudfoot]

The one who really attained Dao obviously should have following knowledge:

 

• Perfect knowledge of Chinese and Ancient Chinese
• Perfect understanding of all the symbolic meanings behind Chinese characters
• Deep understanding of basic Taoism concepts (HeTu 河圖, Lo Shu 洛書, Bagua 八卦)
• Deep understanding of Yin Yang principle

So it seems to me that "dao" of TT has nothing in common with Taoist Dao which Huang Di was talking about.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong and TT can demonstrate his Yangshen abilities and manifest right in front of me,

so we can discuss this interesting topic in person?   

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

So it is not possible to attain the dao without being chinese?

[Arkady Shadursky]

So it is not possible to attain the dao without being chinese?

No. I didn't tell that. Actually most of Chinese people doesn't know Ancient Chinese at all. Most of them don't know what the golden elixir is.

 

So it's not about nationality, but about interests, about studying, investigating, practicing and searching for the Teacher's guidance to accelerate the progress.

 

I think that one can trick other people, but it's impossible to trick the Heaven. IMO.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

[Mudfoot]

You just made it sound so academic, a scholars road.

 

Is it then not possible for a qualified teacher to impart methods, metaphores,and guide the student through the different layers that must be experienced and intuitively grasped?

 

Is the dao bound to language and culture?

 

I am not arguing against the need to immerse yourself in the practice here.

But you seemed to place focus on the scholary part rather than the mystic practice.

 

With regards

Mudfoot

[[email protected]]

But you seemed to place focus on the scholary part rather than the mystic practice.

I think that mystic aspect is mystic only for those who do not know concrete steps in the practice and then it obtains some "unknown" mystery. If someone really achieved results in practice then it should be like an algorithm of specified actions that can lead his disciples to the same achievement.

Rgrds, Ilya

Edited February 4, 2017 by [email protected]

[Jeff]

I think that mystic aspect is mystic only for those who do not know concrete steps in the practice and then it obtains some "unknown" mysteric aspect. If someone really achieved results in practice then it should be like an algorithm of specified actions that can lead his disciples to the same achievement.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

 

I would agree, but not all spiritual growth is linear.  It make take a few years, to see those steps in hindsight.

[Taoist Texts]

If you have reached Dao can you explain what have you obtained?

 

Certainly i can. The elixir.

[Taoist Texts]

 

But you seemed to place focus on the scholary part rather than the mystic practice. 

 

can't sell the mystic

[Mudfoot]

And the algorithm of specified actions cannot be taught to someone that is not a scholar of ancient chinese litterature.......

[Mudfoot]

And this algorithm doesn’t lead to any experiences, apophatic nor cataphatic, that scholars would name mystic experiences.

 

Wow.

[Taoist Texts]

algorithm of specified actions=seminars

 

hehe)

[TheDustAutumn]

 

The one who really attained Dao obviously should have following knowledge:

1. Perfect knowledge of Chinese and Ancient Chinese
2. Perfect understanding of all the symbolic meanings behind Chinese characters
3. Deep understanding of basic Taoism concepts (HeTu 河圖, Lo Shu 洛書, Bagua 八卦)
4. Deep understanding of Yin Yang principle

 

Hmm, most people who attain dao do that through inner practice, not by studying texts. Once they reach it, the texts meanings are obvious because they have went through all the process themselves, not because they are great scholars who can read very well. Real understanding comes from practice and direct experience and is infinitely more valuable than knowledge attained through reading. A high level master can guide and teach his student without uttering a single word(what happened  with  "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao/The name that can be named is not the eternal name"). It's these kind of affirmations (mixed with "my school is the best, everyone else is doing it wrong, only we have the truth" attitude) that makes me seriously doubt your school and intentions

 

.Or maybe I'm wrong and TT can demonstrate his Yangshen abilities and manifest right in front of me,

so we can discuss this interesting topic in person? 

Can you? Just manifest in front of him and you can convince him that he is on the wrong path and see for yourself if he has any attainment.

Edited February 4, 2017 by TheDustAutumn

[DSCB57]

It was never my intention to create a polemic around this. I am happy to see that everyone now seems to be endeavouring to clarify the process, and also challenging those who claim to have already arrived at this reference point we are calling 'enlightenment', 'awakening', 'self realisation' or whatever. I feel that this is healthy, and gradually it seems that the answers are becoming more and more refined and more wisdom is being allowed to come through.

However, one thing is clear. Once at that point most of you seem to be unable to relate to your previous state of dual consciousness and effectively bridge the gap for those yet to cross that hurdle. 

 

I have also identified a further issue which is apparent particularly in Awaken's attempts to explain her concept of 'method of no-method' - to paraphrase...it concerns the imposition of terminology specific to one's culture in an effort to communicate teachings to others not necessarily fully conversant with the terminology of that culture. 

 

Here we are not talking about studying Taoist or Buddhist texts in all their complexity. We are talking about the very basic issue of attending a lecture on Chinese Internal Martial Arts, Qigong, Neigong, TCM, Taoism or pretty much anything in any way related to these arts, and finding that most of the terminology must remain in Chinese (not only that, but in several cases in Kanji, which presupposes rather ambitiously that everyone else can also read Kanji), and it is assumed that everyone fully understands what these terms mean. Now you can say that anyone attending such lectures would be expected to have read up first, in order to prepare themselves, and so be conversant with the meaning of such terminology. But is this the case? I would say no. Because if these terms have not been translated it is due to the fact that these words have no equivalent in non Asian languages. Do you think I am mistaken? Sure you can replace the concept of Qi with a substitute such as energy, life force, electromagnetic energy (not correct, but still in common use) or even Prana. Fine, the idea of life force energy is common to most, if not all cultures, and most people have some understanding of the meaning even if they have not experienced Qi in any meaningful way. The same probably holds true for commonly used terms such as Yin and Yang. However can the same be said for more obscure terminology used by Awaken, such as Wu Wei, Taiji Wuji, Houtian, Neidan, Neigong, Fagong, Huagong or a whole host of similarly specific Taoist or Buddhist terminology? I would say not. And aside from those who have afforded themselves the opportunity to study Chinese and then study Taoism or whichever form of cultivation in Chinese, everyone else has to rely on translations and transliterations of words and concepts in most cases totally foreign to the the culture and language of the translator. Additionally most of those involved in such translations have been totally ignorant of the subject matter, or specialised in fields other than those they are actually working on. I am aware that this is starting to change, but what I do know is that Chinese ideograms contain so much more information than any Western language, and there will therefore be a range of possible words to chose from to provide the most accurate translation or transliteration. How do you know that the translator got it right? Perhaps once having become awakened there will be perceptions available to you to help considerably in this process, but what about everyone else? One has to look no further than the awful erroneous translations which abound in translations from Hebrew to Latin, Greek and subsequently English and other Western languages when translating the Bible - an almost universally recognised authoritative text for the Christian faith - in order to understand the devastating results that can arise from this. How much more so with such an utterly foreign culture as that of the Chinese or Indian?

I would posit that the very same is true in the case of Sanskrit or Pali, when speaking in terms of Buddhism. I am reading through both treatises on Buddhism and translations of the Buddha Sutras, and every other word is in Pali or Sanskrit, and requires reading through a Pali dictionary in order to understand what each term means. 

This, in addition to the element of energetic transmission, is why I hold the opinion that far more can be achieved through personal interaction with a teacher than through books. 

Yet, as we all know, the arena is filled with charlatans, and those with any lesser attainment are ill equipped to discern whether they are genuine or not. It is a Catch 22 situation in most cases. 

Perhaps some of you will feel that I am making a mountain out of a molehill, but what I am trying to do is make those of you who have already found your way aware of the pitfalls and difficulties the rest of us face. 

I wonder. I there is anyone here capable of explaining this without reference to one single term in Chinese? Think about it. We are talking about an endeavour which belongs to a specific philosophy - Taoism. There, we've already used a Chinese term...You think you can explain it? Doesn't the very Daodejing state that the Tao which can be described is not the true Tao? But wait a moment, now we have introduced a new word and concept - Tao, and another, the Daodejing - both Chinese and similarly complicated to really translate correctly. Now you try...

Edited February 4, 2017 by DSCB57

[Papayapple]

Isnt it better for us to try to skillfuly catch the few things we learn from everything arond us, not just Taoism but also your dog, and do our BEST to expand on what we have?

 

Worrying about how far removed we are from language of the Lao Tzu seems kinda silly.

I miss how enlightened I was when I first read that first chapter.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Papayapple

[Arkady Shadursky]

Is it then not possible for a qualified teacher...

 

Ok, but who is that man? Obviously this teacher is Chinese, while we are talking about Alchemy. Chinese who talks Chinese.

Perhaps later in future, when Chinese Schools branches will settle down on the West and new generation of disciples will appear, generation of those who were taught in their native lands, then we could talk about studying without knowledge of Chinese.

 

Is the dao bound to language and culture? 

Dao not bound, however studying of it is currently bound, yes.

 

Hmm, most people who attain dao do that through inner practice, not by studying texts. Once they reach it, the texts meanings are obvious because they have went through all the process themselves, not because they are great scholars who can read very well. Real understanding comes from practice and direct experience and is infinitely more valuable than knowledge attained through reading. A high level master can guide and teach his student without uttering a single word(what happened  with  "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao/The name that can be named is not the eternal name"). It's these kind of affirmations (mixed with "my school is the best, everyone else is doing it wrong, only we have the truth" attitude) that makes me seriously doubt your school and intentions

 

 

Let's just for a second assume that while one is still studying he or she doesn't need to study texts, however when one finally achieved the result he/she should get understanding after all. Otherwise it's just fictitious "achievement" which only exists in the head of that person.

 

Can you? Just manifest in front of him and you can convince him that he is on the wrong path and see for yourself if he has any attainment.

 

I did't claim that I attained the Dao, TT did.

Why then all those arguments on the forum?

 

One answer for a simplest theoretic question about bagua,  flawless behavior, balanced emotional state (specificaly manifested in non-giant font size in the posts, avatar picture, lexicon, etc. ), manifestation of yang spirit - and 1000 other oportunities, to solve all the argues here - that would be the sign of the one who really obtained the Dao.

 

But instead, only claims about self-genious and claims about "obtaining" some imaginary "elixir".

 

Anyway, most important here is: after getting absolute perfection (Dao), is it possible to make foolish mistakes in simplest questions? I doubt that...

 

If I would met a person (not talking about anyone concrete now), who is claiming that he/she is perfect and at the same time:

- claiming about total superiority over everyone in the most indelicate way

- showing up severe disharmony in the discussion

- not understanding most important taoists concepts and symbols

- making mistakes in simplest Chinese

- intentionally changing the words of Patriarchs in posted "translation" for the sake of here-and-now advantage in the discussion

- using false loginc in the conversation

etc.

 

I would guess that this person either totally enchained by illusions of his/her mind, or this is ordinary charlatan, who is trying to trick people.

 

Everything is obvious here for me.   

---

Best Regards,

Arkady