Attainment of full enlightenment through Cultivation

[DSCB57]

Hi everyone. I would like to know which forms of Cultivation lead to full enlightenment rather than earthbound immortality? What does the method consist of in these practices?

 

David

[Marblehead]

Excellent question.  I am sure you will get many responses, each one differing from all others.  But at least when it is all finished you will have lots to pick and choose from.

 

Best wishes.

[Bubbles]

 at least when it is all finished you will have lots to pick and choose from.

 

Yes, it's very much like the Walmart of spirituality here, you will always find something that suits a need you didn't think you had. Happy shopping!

 

edit to add 'find'

Edited January 28, 2017 by bubbles

[SeekerOfHealing]

What is your definition of enlightenment firstly so we can fit to the proper tradition with your ideas of enlightenment.

 

 

Only cessation of fetters/hindrances of the mind brings enlightenment. No other way around.

Edited January 28, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[awaken]

Hi everyone. I would like to know which forms of Cultivation lead to full enlightenment rather than earthbound immortality? What does the method consist of in these practices?

 

David

They are the same thing.

 

No methods.

[DSCB57]

What is your definition of enlightenment firstly so we can fit to the proper tradition with your ideas of enlightenment.

 

 

Only cessation of fetters/hindrances of the mind brings enlightenment. No other way around.

Hello again, SeekerOfHealing. An excellent way to begin! 

 

First of all, I regard enlighenment as experiential. I have had a taste of it, but was led to doubt it somewhat, due to the fact that I had the experience under the stimulus of a drug induced state. In fact it was a single psilocybin mushroom, but nevertheless. despite the profound nature of the experience, only the memory remained. Also, rather than positively enriching my life, it created further clinging, as I could not help comparing any subsequent spiritual experience with that of my drug induced experience. This has led to deep suffering and many inner conflicts on many different levels. 

 

Perhaps it may help if I provide more detail of that experience, as I continue to regard it as forming at least a part of my eventual awakening:

 

First of all, as you may or may not be aware each small psilocybin mushroom has an unknown potency. As a clinician explained to me having overdosed on them in my misspent youth - a single mushroom may have the potency of hundreds or even thousands, and there is no way to gauge this in advance. 

So with that adjunct, here is a summary of what I remember of that experience. 

 

I remember a change in my perception of light first of all - everything coalesced into a golden light, and I perceived without needing to open my eyes. Then I became aware of the Baihui (Sahasrarachakra). I had the impression that I was perceiving everything from several different spacial references simultaneously. One of these was from directly above my body. I was able to look down through the BaiHui into myself, and as I did so, I felt nectar dripping onto my tongue. I could taste it, and as I did so I lost the sense of 'I'. I experienced only a non emotional energy I would call 'love'. I had an awareness that this was all there is, and that it was this energy from which life itself sprung. I was able to experience the changes in my own body, even though it felt one with everything everywhere. I found myself recalling events in my life, and understanding why everything was as it was, and the relevance of each experience. I understood that this being was eternal, without beginning or end and outside of the dimension of time. I had no idea that the entire night had passed, but as I began to 'come out of it' I experienced a terrible sense of loss as I realized that although the memory of most of the experience would remain with me, I would not remain in that state of consciousness. I felt that this was why I had experienced depression since my childhood. I had a knowing that I had always remembered having been this consciousness in which there was no separation - no separateness from anything else. Yet now once again I had returned to my everyday separate perception, 

But since then I realized that this must be our natural state, to exist with no perception of separateness from that which created us, and this became my goal to make that consciousness permanent and reside in that state of being throughout all eternity. 

Well, I don't know whether any of you will acknowledge my experience to have been any sort of valid reflection of what enlightenment might be, or how the process of awakening might begin, but perhaps at least you will find it enjoyable reading. 

 

OK, so that was my experiential description, so now on to the conceptual view of what enlightenment may be...

 

My conceptual understanding is that enlightenment or awakening is a state of consciousness in which the mind is no longer fettered by any of the restrictions or impositions in the way we normally perceive reality - that is to say through the filter of our sense perceptions. These perceptions are responsible for our having the false perception that we are separate from everything else, that there is an experiencer or an observer. At that point one is able to tap into the source of life itself, the mind enters a pure consciousness in which there is the essence of Truth. One is able to perceive all possibilities, all existence, all dimensions simultaneously. One becomes Universal Consciousness, and is able to know all that there is to know and experience all that there is to experience with no atachment to ideas or concepts or imaginings. This is a state of understanding all natural laws and experiencing the true nature of Self. This is pure consciousness in which one experiences both being and not being, the void and all that is contained in the void. The veil is lifted for all time, and once this is embodied in one's mundane existence it remains beyond concepts, because this experience has resulted in a permanent change in one's very being - a change which can be used to benefit all life everywhere. You now understand the cause and effect underlying everything - every event. There is no further seeking, no attachment, no fear, everything simply is as it should be and one is perfectly in harmony with all natural laws and all other beings, because the realization that there is no separation is now experiential rather than purely conceptual. There are no longer any limits to one's capabilities because that to is an imaginary concept. One can simply delight in observing the endless flow of life through everything - everything in constant motion - everything interconnected with everything else, and that same consciousness that is all there is is interwoven within every fibre of the very fabric of existence. 

 

Sorry, i got a little carried away there, but this is how I conceive of that state of consciousness in this present moment. Perhaps it will change tomorrow. 

 

I look forward to some feedback. Thank you.

 

David

Edited January 29, 2017 by DSCB57

[DSCB57]

They are the same thing.

 

No methods.

 

Are you saying that the path of the immortal is the same as the path of liberation from Samsara? I disagree, because I fail to see how the desire to be immortal can be perceived as being free from craving or equate to the desire to no longer experience rebirth in physical form. 

 

There must be a method - it doesn't just happen by itself. There must be some form of technique. Purification of the mind involves technique, purification of the Qi and Jing require techniques, cultivation of the Shen and condensed pearl and creation of the Immortal foetus all require techniques - none of these happen by themselves as far as I am aware...so please elucidate.

 

David

[SeekerOfHealing]

Yes, most of taoist are bound but the higher fetters of being born or being "spiritual high level" 

 

There are methods to handle this body and mind different way, but the "no method" means that actually you become enlightenment because to the moment of enlightenment you need method to cut off hindrances - skill methods and means. 

[damdao]

Are you saying that the path of the immortal is the same as the path of liberation from Samsara? I disagree, because I fail to see how the desire to be immortal can be perceived as being free from craving or equate to the desire to no longer experience rebirth in physical form. 

 

(...)

 

Daoists does not desire immortality. Immortality is a way of describing a particular stage in the whole process.

Besides, what is immortal (yangshen) is not what is mortal (shishen, acquired self) so there is no room for desires.

A way of expressing the last two steps says something like that: converting shen to void, converting void to the Dao.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Immortality means that something becomes permanent. The only permanent thing is impermanence. 

 

We can compare that immortality could be what is called "nibbana without residue" but this we will never known as we would need to compare high level buddhist with high level daoist. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[damdao]

Immortality means that something becomes permanent. The only permanent thing is impermanence. 

 

(...)

 

Those are shishen categories.

[DSCB57]

Daoists does not desire immortality. Immortality is a way of describing a particular stage in the whole process.

Besides, what is immortal (yangshen) is not what is mortal (shishen, acquired self) so there is no room for desires.

A way of expressing the last two steps says something like that: converting shen to void, converting void to the Dao.

 

Thank you for the clarification. So it is the Yang aspect of the Shen which is immortal - is this the actual vehicle into which the consciousness transfers itself, or something else? Please correct me if I am wrong - the process you are describing is the purification of the Jing Qi and Shen culminating in the creation of the immortal embryo/vehicle?

So why are the Taoist Immortals so prominent throughout so many Chinese traditions, and why are there so many people who worship them? Are you saying that they do not exist? What about the Longmen Pai, Mo Pai and other such sects who claim to have immortals among them? 

[Wells]

.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[damdao]

Thank you for the clarification. So it is the Yang aspect of the Shen which is immortal - is this the actual vehicle into which the consciousness transfers itself, or something else? Please correct me if I am wrong - the process you are describing is the purification of the Jing Qi and Shen culminating in the creation of the immortal embryo/vehicle?

So why are the Taoist Immortals so prominent throughout so many Chinese traditions, and why are there so many people who worship them? Are you saying that they do not exist? What about the Longmen Pai, Mo Pai and other such sects who claim to have immortals among them? 

 

From my understanding of the basics of neidan you have to create a vehicle of consciousness, the yangshen.

It is not purification of jing to qi to shen but a way to unify them, so to say. "Purification" implies that you are working with post heaven energies. Neidan is different from qigong, yangshen, neigong, etc. In neidan you work with pre-heaven energies, so no need to purify them. It is sad but most books speak in a misleading way, and in fact speak about a post-heaven (qigong-like) process.

Immortals are prominent in many traditions, in fact until today you can find the Nath yogic tradition that describes the results of its path in a similar way to daoism. Spiritual immortality is something present in nearly all traditions. So, I see no problem in sects claiming contact with spiritual immortals. The controversial point is physical immortality, but even in sects that support that view it is not a goal but a stage. So daoism does not cultivate a earthbound consciousness but a totally free Self, this can be read in ancient books where we can not say that there is buddhist influence.

I don't like the word enlightenment, it is a wrong english translation, neither sanskrit nor chinese use such a word, but in order to shorten the subject we can say that daoism is a quest for the Dao, qigong is a quest for well being and longevity.

But there is another problem: world-view. When in neidan (or qigong or TCM) you train an exercise designed for an organ you not only works on that organ but on the psyche-emotion, what chinese called three hun and seven po (ten faculties in total) (a reference: http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=28516).So, even physical exercises are designed to free the practitioner from conditioning (awakening) and later the work on the yangshen.

[Gerard]

Hi everyone. I would like to know which forms of Cultivation lead to full enlightenment rather than earthbound immortality? What does the method consist of in these practices?

 

Please, focus on the basics like a snail that walks slowly '1 cm per hour'...or else you'll fail here and attain what is called 'the enlightenment of the ego.' Polish the imperfections of your mind with patience, care and determination and you'll go far.

 

Methods: Lineage Internal Martial Arts, many Vipassana retreats.

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Gerard

[awaken]

Are you saying that the path of the immortal is the same as the path of liberation from Samsara? I disagree, because I fail to see how the desire to be immortal can be perceived as being free from craving or equate to the desire to no longer experience rebirth in physical form.

 

There must be a method - it doesn't just happen by itself. There must be some form of technique. Purification of the mind involves technique, purification of the Qi and Jing require techniques, cultivation of the Shen and condensed pearl and creation of the Immortal foetus all require techniques - none of these happen by themselves as far as I am aware...so please elucidate.

 

David

I don't know what is Samsara?

 

There is no desire in becoming immortal.

 

You must be mislead by some methods , like imagining to be one with some specific immortal.

 

That is not I talk about. That is a fake method. Use imagination to fool our mind.

 

 

 

Yes, there must be some method, the method is "no method", ha.

 

I don't cheat you.

 

That is how I cultivate every day.

 

Wu Wei

 

 

I wrote a lot in my space, please read it.

 

How "no methods" is the method of the dao.

Edited January 31, 2017 by awaken

[awaken]

I look for the Samsara in google.

 

The liberation of Samsara, a big issue, I used to think about it.

 

But it is useless and only waste time.

 

I just start from the zero.

 

Follow the road of wu Wei.

 

If we think too much, for example, the gods, the ghosts or the spirits world, we won't focus on what we are "now"

 

抱元守一

 

Hold one and keep it there

 

Be with our true face

 

Stand where we are

[Gerard]

Full enligthenment starts here:

 

The Wheel of Pain

 

...not Dao this, Dao that, Samsara this, Samsara that...practical modern stuff according to the LAW OF CHANGE. Accomodate old wisdom to our modern world. Do not act like the ancients, you can't, adopt their teaching to our current circumstances.

 

The root first and foremost. The rest will take care of itself (including enligtenment if that was meant to be for you in this life cycle).

Edited February 2, 2017 by Gerard

[Spotless]

Hello again, SeekerOfHealing. An excellent way to begin! 

 

First of all, I regard enlighenment as experiential. I have had a taste of it, but was led to doubt it somewhat, due to the fact that I had the experience under the stimulus of a drug induced state. In fact it was a single psilocybin mushroom, but nevertheless. despite the profound nature of the experience, only the memory remained. Also, rather than positively enriching my life, it created further clinging, as I could not help comparing any subsequent spiritual experience with that of my drug induced experience. This has led to deep suffering and many inner conflicts on many different levels. 

 

Perhaps it may help if I provide more detail of that experience, as I continue to regard it as forming at least a part of my eventual awakening:

 

First of all, as you may or may not be aware each small psilocybin mushroom has an unknown potency. As a clinician explained to me having overdosed on them in my misspent youth - a single mushroom may have the potency of hundreds or even thousands, and there is no way to gauge this in advance. 

So with that adjunct, here is a summary of what I remember of that experience. 

 

I remember a change in my perception of light first of all - everything coalesced into a golden light, and I perceived without needing to open my eyes. Then I became aware of the Baihui (Sahasrarachakra). I had the impression that I was perceiving everything from several different spacial references simultaneously. One of these was from directly above my body. I was able to look down through the BaiHui into myself, and as I did so, I felt nectar dripping onto my tongue. I could taste it, and as I did so I lost the sense of 'I'. I experienced only a non emotional energy I would call 'love'. I had an awareness that this was all there is, and that it was this energy from which life itself sprung. I was able to experience the changes in my own body, even though it felt one with everything everywhere. I found myself recalling events in my life, and understanding why everything was as it was, and the relevance of each experience. I understood that this being was eternal, without beginning or end and outside of the dimension of time. I had no idea that the entire night had passed, but as I began to 'come out of it' I experienced a terrible sense of loss as I realized that although the memory of most of the experience would remain with me, I would not remain in that state of consciousness. I felt that this was why I had experienced depression since my childhood. I had a knowing that I had always remembered having been this consciousness in which there was no separation - no separateness from anything else. Yet now once again I had returned to my everyday separate perception, 

But since then I realized that this must be our natural state, to exist with no perception of separateness from that which created us, and this became my goal to make that consciousness permanent and reside in that state of being throughout all eternity. 

Well, I don't know whether any of you will acknowledge my experience to have been any sort of valid reflection of what enlightenment might be, or how the process of awakening might begin, but perhaps at least you will find it enjoyable reading. 

 

OK, so that was my experiential description, so now on to the conceptual view of what enlightenment may be...

 

My conceptual understanding is that enlightenment or awakening is a state of consciousness in which the mind is no longer fettered by any of the restrictions or impositions in the way we normally perceive reality - that is to say through the filter of our sense perceptions. These perceptions are responsible for our having the false perception that we are separate from everything else, that there is an experiencer or an observer. At that point one is able to tap into the source of life itself, the mind enters a pure consciousness in which there is the essence of Truth. One is able to perceive all possibilities, all existence, all dimensions simultaneously. One becomes Universal Consciousness, and is able to know all that there is to know and experience all that there is to experience with no atachment to ideas or concepts or imaginings. This is a state of understanding all natural laws and experiencing the true nature of Self. This is pure consciousness in which one experiences both being and not being, the void and all that is contained in the void. The veil is lifted for all time, and once this is embodied in one's mundane existence it remains beyond concepts, because this experience has resulted in a permanent change in one's very being - a change which can be used to benefit all life everywhere. You now understand the cause and effect underlying everything - every event. There is no further seeking, no attachment, no fear, everything simply is as it should be and one is perfectly in harmony with all natural laws and all other beings, because the realization that there is no separation is now experiential rather than purely conceptual. There are no longer any limits to one's capabilities because that to is an imaginary concept. One can simply delight in observing the endless flow of life through everything - everything in constant motion - everything interconnected with everything else, and that same consciousness that is all there is is interwoven within every fibre of the very fabric of existence. 

 

Sorry, i got a little carried away there, but this is how I conceive of that state of consciousness in this present moment. Perhaps it will change tomorrow. 

 

I look forward to some feedback. Thank you.

 

David

We had very similar experiences. I swore to spend the rest of my life in attaining this stage organically - and I did and very far beyond. Though in the last large paragraph you put a great deal of the cart before the horse.

[Spotless]

 

awaken, on 28 Jan 2017 - 5:08 PM, said:

"They are the same thing.

 

No methods."

 

Response from DSCB57:

"Are you saying that the path of the immortal is the same as the path of liberation from Samsara? I disagree, because I fail to see how the desire to be immortal can be perceived as being free from craving or equate to the desire to no longer experience rebirth in physical form.

 

There must be a method - it doesn't just happen by itself. There must be some form of technique. Purification of the mind involves technique, purification of the Qi and Jing require techniques, cultivation of the Shen and condensed pearl and creation of the Immortal foetus all require techniques - none of these happen by themselves as far as I am aware...so please elucidate.

 

David"

End Quote

 

Awaken is correct.

[Bindi]

Full enligthenment starts here:

 

The Wheel of Pain

 

...not Dao this, Dao that, Samsara this, Samsara that...practical modern stuff according to the LAW OF CHANGE. Accomodate old wisdom to our modern world. Do not act like the ancients, you can't, adopt their teaching to our current circumstances.

 

The root first and foremost. The rest will take care of itself (including enligtenment if that was meant to be for you in this life cycle).

 

Your link doesn't seem to be working, it just returns me to this page.

[Mudfoot]

Your link doesn't seem to be working, it just returns me to this page.

That would be the wheel of pain

[Pilgrim]

That would be the wheel of pain

Lol

[MIchael80]

Dear DSCB57,

 

a technique cannot awaken you. It can Support the process but the actual awakening is not in the Hands of the individual....awakening is like a remembrance.

Awakening is waking up from being the Person you thought you were......so that Person cannot directly cause the awakening.

 

Purifaction helps but at a certain Point one has to ask "who is doing These techniques"?

Which brings one the the part of the process of the falling away of big chunks of the "I" (as spotless has put so well into words.)

 

the real cultivation starts when much of the I has been surrendered/cleared.

 

Awakening of the physical Body or physical Body enlightenment or in the Yoga sutras called perfection of the Body Comes after the Initial awakening. this process goes on by itself when one in the awakened state does not cling to the Notion of "being done". However this process is slow and can be accelarated by techniques (and because we do not live very Long in this Age in its natural unfolding will not come to its frution).

 

best

Michael

[DSCB57]

I don't know what is Samsara?

 

Samsara is the Buddhist term which means being bound to the wheel of rebirth, it is the world of delusion to which we are chained by our dualistic perceptions until we become realised and attain Nirvana - liberation from Samsara. 

 

There is no desire in becoming immortal.

 

You must be mislead by some methods , like imagining to be one with some specific immortal.

 

That is not I talk about. That is a fake method. Use imagination to fool our mind.

 

Thank you for clarifying that. 

 

 

Yes, there must be some method, the method is "no method", ha.

 

I don't cheat you.

 

That is how I cultivate every day.

 

Wu Wei

 

 

No doubt from an enlightened or already awakened perspective one can speak in terms of the method which is 'no method'. Gautama Buddha also speaks in similar terms. But this concept is difficult for the un-awakened mind to grasp, because it is still stuck within the illusion of duality. In a way I think I do understand what you mean, yet I also understand that conceptual understanding will get me nowhere - this has to be experienced in order to truly understand. 

 

I wrote a lot in my space, please read it.

 

How "no methods" is the method of the dao.

 

 

I have read much of your material, but I still cannot grasp the meaning fully. There are obscurations which cloud my ability to perceive everything with clarity.