Beyond enlightenment

[DSCB57]

I would like to ask the following:

 

1. What lies beyond enlightenment?

 

2. What different levels of enlightenment exist which are accessible to a human being?

 

3. What is the difference between these levels?

 

4. What is the difference between the elightenment achieved through the practice of Buddha Dharma and that achieved through Taoist Cultivation practices? 

 

5. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each of these approaches?

 

6. Is there any spiritual relationship between Buddha Dharma and Taoist Cultivation practice?

[Marblehead]

I would like to ask the following:

 

1. What lies beyond enlightenment?

 

 

Chop wood, carry water.  You knew that.

[Bubbles]

Chop wood, carry water.  You knew that.

 

This is also most true of what is before enlightenment, if such a thing exists.

[SeekerOfHealing]

1. What lies beyond enlightenment?

Depends of how you define enlightenment it would be defining what will be beyond.

 

What different levels of enlightenment exist which are accessible to a human being?

Depends on tradition you are asking.I'm following mostly buddhist so 8 type of absorption and many types of insight knowledge into three marks of existence.

 

What is the difference between these levels?

Depth.

 

What is the difference between the elightenment achieved through the practice of Buddha Dharma and that achieved through Taoist Cultivation practices?

Taoist Cultivation is impermanent. Buddhist cultivation is permanent.

 

What are the advantages and disadvantages of each of these approaches?

Taoist = better bodyBuddhist = better mind

 

Is there any spiritual relationship between Buddha Dharma and Taoist Cultivation practice?

None, as they focus on different things thru different means.

[awaken]

For a beginner, they are different.

[MIchael80]

For stages of developement in consciousness (post personal) and beyond:

http://davidya.ca/2014/01/25/stages-of-development-in-consciousness/

 

best

michael

[DSCB57]

Thank you Seeker Of Healing. 

It seems we are on the same page at least . 

Perhaps it may help clarify my question if I were to explain what gave rise to my questions: 

 

After many years of Qigong/Neigong practice I am still experiencing difficulties with ill health and various results of deviations in my Cultivation practice, as I have attempted to describe in several posts here. Quite by chance during an exchange on Quora I came into contact with a master (let's call him J.V.) who said that he was enlightened, and he told me that the only way I could possibly improve my health and fully develop my spiritiual potential was to practice to attain Mantra and Dharani Samadhi, then work with Wisdom and Compassion once the underlying karmic issues were resolved through the practice. He gave me a very intense practice involving Anapanasati and Mantra Samadhi, plus repetition of several powerful Dharanis and reading and studying the Buddha Sutras. 

He also instructed me not to continue with any MCO practices which guide the Qi round the MCO, he told me that it was very important not to interfere with the natural flow of the MCO. This confirmed the attitude towards such practices in the tradition within which I had been practicing for most of the time in recent years - Yiquan/Dachengquan, which maintains that the Hunyuan pr Yuanqi cannot be successfully cultivated if the mind attempts to interfere in any way in the natural movement of Qi around the meridians or the body. I have already described what I perceive to be the dangers and pitfalls of involving the Yi in the process, and I have had some extremely damaging experiences as a result of practicing in this way. 

 

There is someone else on Quora who claims to be fully enlightened (let's call him 'M')who also responded to my questions (there are actually several who make similar claims, but this particular person actually describes himself as being fully enlightened, and invites doubters to visit his webpage in which he claims to explain why he makes such a statement publicly).Having read his story, and remaining unconvinced, In the spirit of Buddha Dharma I challenged him to defend this statement. He went into considerable detail, but perhaps the most important thing is that his statements appear to be in direct conflict with what Gautama Buddha taught in several important respects. 

 

According to him Gautama deliberately limited his enlightenment. He says that once he had achieved enlightenment he confronted Gautama with this (he says that Gautama appeared before him), and said that Gautama simply stepped aside and made way for him to re-enter his body. He described his experience of enlightenment as having had what might be described as an 'out of body experience' during which he experienced direct union with what he called Tao or 'The Source'. He said that Truth was in no way to be limited to any particular tradition, and he claims to embody all religions and beliefs systems, and also describes Tao as God. He told me that he was able to make and patent a physical model of Tao and the state of constant flux, or what he describes as 'infinite possibility'.He told me that he used this device to understand the true nature of Tao and so reach beyond Nirvana to this ultimate Truth which he claims is way beyond the Nirvanic state. He says that Buddha made a giant intellectual leap when he spoke of 'not nothing' as opposed to 'the void' of previous Buddhas, but he said that this was in fact a limited perspective, because the Tao or Source was beyond 'not nothing'. Please bear in mind that this is my somewhat limited understanding of what he is saying from a purely intellectual perspective, as I do not pretend to be enlightened. He seems to be saying that this state of being is beyond birth and death, yet still allows one to remain in physical form. 

When I asked him about the actual method, he told me that the most effective practice was the use of the MahaMantra Om in sitting meditation (he said Lotus posture), whilst focusing on the Crown Chakra and practicing Anapanasati, or focusing on the breath. 

 

At this point of time I am following the instruction of the first master (J.V.) who sent me the practice, and he has told me that my path in this lifetime is the Mahayana Path through Mantra and Dharani Samadhi. He explained that much of the pain I have been experiencing is the result of embodied karmic causes. He said that the three areas in which I was suffering most discomfort corresponded with the three gates through which Karma is worked through. These are the base of the skull, the centre of the spine and the area below the hips. He said that once the Karmic issues were transmuted, there would be no further need for the pain to manifest. 

 

When I spoke of this with the master I mentioned previously ('M') and asked his opinion regarding the practices I had been given by J.V., he asked me which Samadhis I had experienced. Of course, all I could do was describe my experiences in the short time since undertaking these practices - only a matter of months. He did not appear very impressed by what I recounted to him, although he did say that some of my perceptions were important steps in the practice. 

 

I suppose I am in a way trying to vindicate the practice I have been given by J.V., and trace the practice back to an authentic tradition, as I admit to having little information about the Mahayana tradition other than what I have learned through my studies of the specific Suttras he instructed me to study and the other material I have been reading on Buddhism in general. 

 

I had a significant struggle with my acceptance of this due to an extremely bad experience early on in my development with Tibetan Buddhism. J.V. told me that Tibetan Buddhism has strayed very far from true Buddha Dharma, and embodies many conflicting beliefs which have no place in Buddha Dharma. He said that I needed to put all this behind me and make a fresh start. He said that these Dharanis would both heal and protect me and ultimately give me real power over all aspects of my development. He says that this is the way he reached his enlightenment, and that he is the living proof of the efficacy of this practice. 

 

It is my hope that this explanation of my present situation will help those interested in furthering this discussion to gain an understanding of where I am in my Cultivation, so as to advise me in order to avoid unneccessarily entering yet another incorrect path. My intuition tells me that 'M' is there as a sort of hindrance in order to confuse me and make me doubt J.V., but I have been misled so many times in the 30 odd years I have been practicing various forms of cultivation that I simply do not want to be fooled any longer. I don't have that much time left to risk wasting in futile practices. 

 

Thank you.

 

David

Depends of how you define enlightenment it would be defining what will be beyond.

 

Depends on tradition you are asking. I'm following mostly buddhist so 8 type of absorption and many types of insight knowledge into three marks of existence.

 

Depth.

 

Taoist Cultivation is impermanent. Buddhist cultivation is permanent.

 

Taoist = better body Buddhist = better mind

 

None, as they focus on different things thru different means.

 

[SeekerOfHealing]

Sorry but you being hoaxed and finessed.

 

The only teacher you have there is Buddha (Gotama) himself and his Suttas.

 

If you want study enlightenment, cultivation you need to leave such people who will use such attention from you because of your disadvantage to feed themselves. 

 

It's saddens me a bit how people and what people do in spiritual level it's crazy. Please give me your contact, I'm not enlightenment but I been in the same situation like you, very sick. Now I'm healthy and happy without much worries going clearly thru liberation and each gradual step by step I can clearly see and recognize that why I do not have doubts and why I speak "sure" about things.

 

I can help health wise to you and give you support without exploiting you. no need for money or no need to pay anything. Happiness and metta of other people is enough as I understand when most people come from. 

 

Please beware of fake teachers, so called enlightenment people saying such things. They clearly scamming.

 

Be super skeptical, do not believe ANYTHING! when I say anything I mean it! Nothing. You come to information, test it, practice, see if you practiced it right and with full heart, sincere then you can speak what is what etc.

 

See the results, be very critical and skeptical. I study spiritual traditions, schools for 13 years or more, I lost count. Most of them are just results of idea of crazy people and that's just true. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[[email protected]]

As I have read there is no enlightenment as a pure concept in Taoism, it is very close to heart stability which is one of the results in Xing practice, but not the only. Taoism doctrine assumes the adept to train both heart and body, xing and ming, and only in this case harmony is possible.

Rgrds, Ilys

[thelerner]

This is also most true of what is before enlightenment, if such a thing exists.

True, but its accompanied by more bitching, moaning and complaining. 

[Brian]

Thank you Seeker Of Healing. 

It seems we are on the same page at least . 

Perhaps it may help clarify my question if I were to explain what gave rise to my questions: 

 

After many years of Qigong/Neigong practice I am still experiencing difficulties with ill health and various results of deviations in my Cultivation practice, as I have attempted to describe in several posts here. Quite by chance during an exchange on Quora I came into contact with a master (let's call him J.V.) who said that he was enlightened, and he told me that the only way I could possibly improve my health and fully develop my spiritiual potential was to practice to attain Mantra and Dharani Samadhi, then work with Wisdom and Compassion once the underlying karmic issues were resolved through the practice. He gave me a very intense practice involving Anapanasati and Mantra Samadhi, plus repetition of several powerful Dharanis and reading and studying the Buddha Sutras. 

He also instructed me not to continue with any MCO practices which guide the Qi round the MCO, he told me that it was very important not to interfere with the natural flow of the MCO. This confirmed the attitude towards such practices in the tradition within which I had been practicing for most of the time in recent years - Yiquan/Dachengquan, which maintains that the Hunyuan pr Yuanqi cannot be successfully cultivated if the mind attempts to interfere in any way in the natural movement of Qi around the meridians or the body. I have already described what I perceive to be the dangers and pitfalls of involving the Yi in the process, and I have had some extremely damaging experiences as a result of practicing in this way. 

 

There is someone else on Quora who claims to be fully enlightened (let's call him 'M')who also responded to my questions (there are actually several who make similar claims, but this particular person actually describes himself as being fully enlightened, and invites doubters to visit his webpage in which he claims to explain why he makes such a statement publicly).Having read his story, and remaining unconvinced, In the spirit of Buddha Dharma I challenged him to defend this statement. He went into considerable detail, but perhaps the most important thing is that his statements appear to be in direct conflict with what Gautama Buddha taught in several important respects. 

 

According to him Gautama deliberately limited his enlightenment. He says that once he had achieved enlightenment he confronted Gautama with this (he says that Gautama appeared before him), and said that Gautama simply stepped aside and made way for him to re-enter his body. He described his experience of enlightenment as having had what might be described as an 'out of body experience' during which he experienced direct union with what he called Tao or 'The Source'. He said that Truth was in no way to be limited to any particular tradition, and he claims to embody all religions and beliefs systems, and also describes Tao as God. He told me that he was able to make and patent a physical model of Tao and the state of constant flux, or what he describes as 'infinite possibility'.He told me that he used this device to understand the true nature of Tao and so reach beyond Nirvana to this ultimate Truth which he claims is way beyond the Nirvanic state. He says that Buddha made a giant intellectual leap when he spoke of 'not nothing' as opposed to 'the void' of previous Buddhas, but he said that this was in fact a limited perspective, because the Tao or Source was beyond 'not nothing'. Please bear in mind that this is my somewhat limited understanding of what he is saying from a purely intellectual perspective, as I do not pretend to be enlightened. He seems to be saying that this state of being is beyond birth and death, yet still allows one to remain in physical form. 

When I asked him about the actual method, he told me that the most effective practice was the use of the MahaMantra Om in sitting meditation (he said Lotus posture), whilst focusing on the Crown Chakra and practicing Anapanasati, or focusing on the breath. 

 

At this point of time I am following the instruction of the first master (J.V.) who sent me the practice, and he has told me that my path in this lifetime is the Mahayana Path through Mantra and Dharani Samadhi. He explained that much of the pain I have been experiencing is the result of embodied karmic causes. He said that the three areas in which I was suffering most discomfort corresponded with the three gates through which Karma is worked through. These are the base of the skull, the centre of the spine and the area below the hips. He said that once the Karmic issues were transmuted, there would be no further need for the pain to manifest. 

 

When I spoke of this with the master I mentioned previously ('M') and asked his opinion regarding the practices I had been given by J.V., he asked me which Samadhis I had experienced. Of course, all I could do was describe my experiences in the short time since undertaking these practices - only a matter of months. He did not appear very impressed by what I recounted to him, although he did say that some of my perceptions were important steps in the practice. 

 

I suppose I am in a way trying to vindicate the practice I have been given by J.V., and trace the practice back to an authentic tradition, as I admit to having little information about the Mahayana tradition other than what I have learned through my studies of the specific Suttras he instructed me to study and the other material I have been reading on Buddhism in general. 

 

I had a significant struggle with my acceptance of this due to an extremely bad experience early on in my development with Tibetan Buddhism. J.V. told me that Tibetan Buddhism has strayed very far from true Buddha Dharma, and embodies many conflicting beliefs which have no place in Buddha Dharma. He said that I needed to put all this behind me and make a fresh start. He said that these Dharanis would both heal and protect me and ultimately give me real power over all aspects of my development. He says that this is the way he reached his enlightenment, and that he is the living proof of the efficacy of this practice. 

 

It is my hope that this explanation of my present situation will help those interested in furthering this discussion to gain an understanding of where I am in my Cultivation, so as to advise me in order to avoid unneccessarily entering yet another incorrect path. My intuition tells me that 'M' is there as a sort of hindrance in order to confuse me and make me doubt J.V., but I have been misled so many times in the 30 odd years I have been practicing various forms of cultivation that I simply do not want to be fooled any longer. I don't have that much time left to risk wasting in futile practices. 

 

Thank you.

 

David

Did "M" happen to give you the patent number?

[Bubbles]

True, but its accompanied by more bitching, moaning and complaining. 

 

Yes, but this is how delusion is best prevented: as long as there is still bitching, moaning and complaining, there is work to do- no lie, just receiving a buttkick.

This doesn't happen with spiritual workshops, higher states of consciousness etc.: love cream and lies, lies, lies. They are all good, but after them, how is the chop wood, carry water going?

[Fa Xin]

I would just be skeptical of someone online who claims enlightenment.

 

The internet, such a boon and at the same time such bunk. Like many things.

[johndoe2012]

I don't think Tibetan Buddhism has strayed far from the original Pali Canon. Sounds like belief over fact.

 

But it is true spirituality contains many pitfalls.

 

One way not to be able to be deceived is to tune up your feeling skills so you can feel into yourself and others what the issue behind a blockage is.

 

This way you will automatically sense the level someone is at and whether you are repulsed or attracted to a practice or a person.

[DSCB57]

Did "M" happen to give you the patent number?

 

Yes, he did, but I think it would be better to read the context in which he mentioned it, as my explanation may not be sufficiently in depth, so here you are: "I was able to take my philosophical idea of the true identity of the not-Nothing to another level which began with me demonstrating it scientifically. The way I did it was by translating the not-Nothing into that which is both something and nothing, i.e. the Tao. What I did was build a working model of the Tao. I was aided in this by the fact that during the Awakening I became the Tao. Then all I really had to do was reverse engineer it. The machine I built exhibited a motion that was unknown to both mathematics and physics. Based on that I was allowed to name the motion I discovered Omnidirectional Oscillation. Because the machine I built to prove this motion exists had no prior art and the motion no mention in the history of math and physics the patent office honored me by naming the gear that copies the motion of the Tao, the Glover Gear. It’s US pat number 4757722 if you want to look it up. Or you can see a photocopy of the patent and a video of it in operation on my Quora blog: Possibility." 

If you want to check out his credentials: https://www.quora.com/profile/Marvin-Glover

 

Hope you find this useful, and it would be useful to me to obtain further feedback about this from the rest of you. It seems unlikely that he could have falsified his credentials, and this is what made me wonder if what he is saying is more than delusion. If you read his story I have no doubt that you will find it absolutely preposterous, but not everyone can claim to have been able to model the Tao , and if he really has managed to create such a device, that speaks to me someone of beyond average intellectual capacity. He does however seem very attached to the necessity to have his enlightened status recognized, and that rings warning bells too...

 

David

[DSCB57]

I don't think Tibetan Buddhism has strayed far from the original Pali Canon. Sounds like belief over fact.

 

But it is true spirituality contains many pitfalls.

 

One way not to be able to be deceived is to tune up your feeling skills so you can feel into yourself and others what the issue behind a blockage is.

 

This way you will automatically sense the level someone is at and whether you are repulsed or attracted to a practice or a person.

 

Well, to defend my point regarding Tibetan Buddhism, their belief in reincarnation is distinct from the idea of rebirth that Gautama Buddha taught, because reincarnation implies that there is a soul entity which continuously reincarnates with the same consciousness but in different forms within the different kingdoms, throughout however many lifetimes one continues to be in Samsaric existence - this concept flies in the face of the idea of rebirth which Gautama taught, along with the Anatta - no-soul doctrine which sets Buddhism apart from every other religion. Then there is the subject of the various lineages of the Tulku (reincarnated) Lamas. My own experience was with the Karma Kagud'pa lineage, and I can assure you it is not the same to take refuge in a Lama as taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. The Lama is set up as the Guru in the same way as one accepts a Guru to be an earthly incarnation of a specific deity - a concept also foreign to Gautama Buddha's teachings, and in the case of the Dalai Lama supposedly a reincarnation of Gautama himself. One performs prostrations directly to the Lama as one's Guru and receives transmissions from him. All of this is borrowed from the Vedic traditions and as far as I am aware has absolutely nothing to do with what Gautama taught, even if he did incorporate many of the same deities and other beings as well as much of the same terminology as that found in Vedanta. Then for further corroboration you need look no further than the energetic practices they perform such as G'Tummo, which have no parallel in other Buddhist traditions outside perhaps the Chinese Buddhist sects such as those of Ch'an Buddhism for example, but it is obvious that here again there has been a mixture of Buddhism with pre-existent Taoist Cultivation practices. Again, these energetic practices (of the Tibetan Buddhists) employ pranayama and work with Kundalini, both of which come from Vedanta, not Buddhism. 

[johndoe2012]

Yes, he did, but I think it would be better to read the context in which he mentioned it, as my explanation may not be sufficiently in depth, so here you are: "I was able to take my philosophical idea of the true identity of the not-Nothing to another level which began with me demonstrating it scientifically. The way I did it was by translating the not-Nothing into that which is both something and nothing, i.e. the Tao. What I did was build a working model of the Tao. I was aided in this by the fact that during the Awakening I became the Tao. Then all I really had to do was reverse engineer it. The machine I built exhibited a motion that was unknown to both mathematics and physics. Based on that I was allowed to name the motion I discovered Omnidirectional Oscillation. Because the machine I built to prove this motion exists had no prior art and the motion no mention in the history of math and physics the patent office honored me by naming the gear that copies the motion of the Tao, the Glover Gear. It’s US pat number 4757722 if you want to look it up. Or you can see a photocopy of the patent and a video of it in operation on my Quora blog: Possibility."

If you want to check out his credentials: https://www.quora.com/profile/Marvin-Glover

 

Hope you find this useful, and it would be useful to me to obtain further feedback about this from the rest of you. It seems unlikely that he could have falsified his credentials, and this is what made me wonder if what he is saying is more than delusion. If you read his story I have no doubt that you will find it absolutely preposterous, but not everyone can claim to have been able to model the Tao , and if he really has managed to create such a device, that speaks to me someone of beyond average intellectual capacity. He does however seem very attached to the necessity to have his enlightened status recognized, and that rings warning bells too...

 

David

My take is Martin Glover is awake.

 

But that doesn't mean he should decide what you should practice.

 

Feel into it and keep doing the practice if you like it.

 

One day you may find the practice doesn't resonate anymore. Then you find another practice or maybe you stop practicing.

[lifeforce]

Anyone who claims to be enlightened, either on the internet, or in person, probably isn't.

[Fa Xin]

Getting past the title of "enlightened buddha"

 

Does this person speak to you? Do what they say resonate on a deep level as truth to you?

 

Ultimately 8 out of 10 people can say the sky is red, but if you believe it's blue, then it is blue!

 

We could assume all day about this person. But do you feel following them it would benefit your goals?

[Gerard]

Anyone who claims to be enlightened, either on the internet, or in person, probably isn't.

...except The Buddha, one truly exceptional being for only one specific point in 'time.'

 

 

The rest who make such a claim are either deluded or worse: fake.

 

[awaken]

Thank you Seeker Of Healing.

It seems we are on the same page at least .

Perhaps it may help clarify my question if I were to explain what gave rise to my questions:

 

After many years of Qigong/Neigong practice I am still experiencing difficulties with ill health and various results of deviations in my Cultivation practice, as I have attempted to describe in several posts here. Quite by chance during an exchange on Quora I came into contact with a master (let's call him J.V.) who said that he was enlightened, and he told me that the only way I could possibly improve my health and fully develop my spiritiual potential was to practice to attain Mantra and Dharani Samadhi, then work with Wisdom and Compassion once the underlying karmic issues were resolved through the practice. He gave me a very intense practice involving Anapanasati and Mantra Samadhi, plus repetition of several powerful Dharanis and reading and studying the Buddha Sutras.

He also instructed me not to continue with any MCO practices which guide the Qi round the MCO, he told me that it was very important not to interfere with the natural flow of the MCO. This confirmed the attitude towards such practices in the tradition within which I had been practicing for most of the time in recent years - Yiquan/Dachengquan, which maintains that the Hunyuan pr Yuanqi cannot be successfully cultivated if the mind attempts to interfere in any way in the natural movement of Qi around the meridians or the body. I have already described what I perceive to be the dangers and pitfalls of involving the Yi in the process, and I have had some extremely damaging experiences as a result of practicing in this way.

 

There is someone else on Quora who claims to be fully enlightened (let's call him 'M')who also responded to my questions (there are actually several who make similar claims, but this particular person actually describes himself as being fully enlightened, and invites doubters to visit his webpage in which he claims to explain why he makes such a statement publicly).Having read his story, and remaining unconvinced, In the spirit of Buddha Dharma I challenged him to defend this statement. He went into considerable detail, but perhaps the most important thing is that his statements appear to be in direct conflict with what Gautama Buddha taught in several important respects.

 

According to him Gautama deliberately limited his enlightenment. He says that once he had achieved enlightenment he confronted Gautama with this (he says that Gautama appeared before him), and said that Gautama simply stepped aside and made way for him to re-enter his body. He described his experience of enlightenment as having had what might be described as an 'out of body experience' during which he experienced direct union with what he called Tao or 'The Source'. He said that Truth was in no way to be limited to any particular tradition, and he claims to embody all religions and beliefs systems, and also describes Tao as God. He told me that he was able to make and patent a physical model of Tao and the state of constant flux, or what he describes as 'infinite possibility'.He told me that he used this device to understand the true nature of Tao and so reach beyond Nirvana to this ultimate Truth which he claims is way beyond the Nirvanic state. He says that Buddha made a giant intellectual leap when he spoke of 'not nothing' as opposed to 'the void' of previous Buddhas, but he said that this was in fact a limited perspective, because the Tao or Source was beyond 'not nothing'. Please bear in mind that this is my somewhat limited understanding of what he is saying from a purely intellectual perspective, as I do not pretend to be enlightened. He seems to be saying that this state of being is beyond birth and death, yet still allows one to remain in physical form.

When I asked him about the actual method, he told me that the most effective practice was the use of the MahaMantra Om in sitting meditation (he said Lotus posture), whilst focusing on the Crown Chakra and practicing Anapanasati, or focusing on the breath.

 

At this point of time I am following the instruction of the first master (J.V.) who sent me the practice, and he has told me that my path in this lifetime is the Mahayana Path through Mantra and Dharani Samadhi. He explained that much of the pain I have been experiencing is the result of embodied karmic causes. He said that the three areas in which I was suffering most discomfort corresponded with the three gates through which Karma is worked through. These are the base of the skull, the centre of the spine and the area below the hips. He said that once the Karmic issues were transmuted, there would be no further need for the pain to manifest.

 

When I spoke of this with the master I mentioned previously ('M') and asked his opinion regarding the practices I had been given by J.V., he asked me which Samadhis I had experienced. Of course, all I could do was describe my experiences in the short time since undertaking these practices - only a matter of months. He did not appear very impressed by what I recounted to him, although he did say that some of my perceptions were important steps in the practice.

 

I suppose I am in a way trying to vindicate the practice I have been given by J.V., and trace the practice back to an authentic tradition, as I admit to having little information about the Mahayana tradition other than what I have learned through my studies of the specific Suttras he instructed me to study and the other material I have been reading on Buddhism in general.

 

I had a significant struggle with my acceptance of this due to an extremely bad experience early on in my development with Tibetan Buddhism. J.V. told me that Tibetan Buddhism has strayed very far from true Buddha Dharma, and embodies many conflicting beliefs which have no place in Buddha Dharma. He said that I needed to put all this behind me and make a fresh start. He said that these Dharanis would both heal and protect me and ultimately give me real power over all aspects of my development. He says that this is the way he reached his enlightenment, and that he is the living proof of the efficacy of this practice.

 

It is my hope that this explanation of my present situation will help those interested in furthering this discussion to gain an understanding of where I am in my Cultivation, so as to advise me in order to avoid unneccessarily entering yet another incorrect path. My intuition tells me that 'M' is there as a sort of hindrance in order to confuse me and make me doubt J.V., but I have been misled so many times in the 30 odd years I have been practicing various forms of cultivation that I simply do not want to be fooled any longer. I don't have that much time left to risk wasting in futile practices.

 

Thank you.

 

David

I wasted 15 years in a lot of useless methods. You spent more. 30 years.

 

After I gave up all the methods, I finally found the road.

 

I hope you can have the same decision and find the road.

 

Yes, Man-made Mco is dangerous.

 

I told someone in the forum, but he got angry with me, ha.

 

Yes, Tibet Buddhism twist the real teaching from Buddha.

 

If you waste enough time to know all the wrong roads, why don't you follow your own voice?

 

After I wasted for 15 years, I practice by myself.

 

When I do cultivation, I know what is wrong or right.

 

I can avoid the wrong road.

 

After I avoided all the wrong road, the right road show up by itself.

 

Amazing

 

 

 

 

 

Enlightenment is the start point of daoist cultivation.

 

The one who don't enlightenment will mislead the dao cultivation a lot and chase the feeling of body.

 

Enlightenment is the base of daoist.

 

After enlightenment, we know the direction of our true face.

 

We won't mislead by a lot of crazy useless methods "again".

 

You know Zhang Zhong. I am sure you know what is enlightenment.

 

You know what is your true face.

 

All you need is trust your self.

Edited January 31, 2017 by awaken

[Spotless]

Awaken : Quote

 

"I wasted 15 years in a lot of useless methods. You spent more. 30 years.

After I gave up all the methods, I finally found the road.

I hope you can have the same decision and find the road.

Yes, Man-made Mco is dangerous.

I told someone in the forum, but he got angry with me, ha.

Yes, Tibet Buddhism twist the real teaching from Buddha.

If you waste enough time to know all the wrong roads, why don't you follow your own voice?

After I wasted for 15 years, I practice by myself.

When I do cultivation, I know what is wrong or right.

I can avoid the wrong road.

After I avoided all the wrong road, the right road show up by itself.

Amazing"

 

End Quote

 

----

 

First I read lots of books - and I talked allot.

Then I put down the books and practice allot. 

Along the way came many siddhis and they were quite amazing but i was not seeking siddhis and so again and again I had times when I meditated allot and kept gaining more siddhis but this was not a goal and it did not occupy me for long.

 

When my son was conceived I decided to speak with him before his birth and so I meditated again 3-6 hours a day for many months both before and after his birth. In the beginning it was to clarify my space and abilities - so that I could better speak with the being about to become our child.

 

After he was born and a year or so after - I took to helping him settle into sleep. I would meditate 1-3 hours from 8pm to whenever and then get up at 3:30 am and meditate usually until he woke up. 

 

At some point very quickly "I" began to fall away - night after night in big chunks.

 

Not long after that - within days - I was in a state very much like the one Ekhart Tolle speaks of - sitting on the park bench for two years.

 

I did not sit on a park bench per se but it was the same experience.

 

Soon there after I took up Qi Gong - with a great master who speaks no English. He did not need to speak and all I needed to do was practice. Very occasionally he would say "Ahhh very good" in his attempt at English. Year after year 4-6 days a week with him - I did nothing but the various postures - no inner engineering. And year after year remaining parts (residual bits) of my old habituations and positions that still remained have fallen away. 

 

During this time the bodies developed much further - energy is refined and clarity replaces clarity endlessly.

 

Suffering ceased as the chunks fell away - in the very beginning. Everything that comes with this is amazing and it can continue to unfold far beyond any conception of it.

 

I agree with Awaken on so many things because we have both come to understand.

Willfulness is not the answer - it is the wall.

Controlling is not the answer - it is the wall.

 

When you are IN the basics and begin to leave effort - you are on your path and Presence will find you. Stillness will find you.

Because the "you' that is not you is finally letting down its guard in exhaustion and Presence is lighting its way within.

 

I allowed myself to indulge in the "me" that died when I awoke a great deal in my life prior to Awakening - so it has taken me about 5 years to move forward from the bench. Most of "me" fell away in the gigantic chunks upon Awakening but many deep groves sat there easily energized even if i was no longer identified with them. What might have lingered for days took minutes but still the grooves were still there.

 

​For years also I had no words for what was happening - day after day - week after week - the energies never stopped increasing  and the words could never keep up. I was a bit like a surfer stuck in the wash for years - though throughout the entire time no suffering and increasingly increasing stillness and power and calm. An entire life change and an entire bodies change(ing).

 

Words have come to me now though the internal changes often have no words. Some consider Enlightenment to be the basis of the end of Suffering - in this definition I am Enlightened and am Enlightening. Some consider Enlightenment to be when a being has attained what is utterly without words - yet words have been put to it.

 

Those who have Awakened do not seem to be so interested in the definitions anymore - but those who have not Awakened seem to be ready to read the riot act to anyone who cares to listen.

 

Awakening requires only one main shift - a shift from ones positions to no-position. The complete addiction to position is the reason it is so very difficult to hear the simple messages that have been stated for eons. It appears that when enough types of glue have been tried and failed (Karmic frequencies of resistance and insistence) then the seeker becomes strong enough and intelligent enough to seek and look into the matrix of his own prison and in exhaustion begins to let if drop - not by intention - not in letting go - it becomes something one no longer partakes in. This is the death of the seeker.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Spotless

[Gerard]

About the necessity of forgetting the what is going to be reached in its own accord (independent of you) and focusing on the HERE, NOW:

 

"Do not disturb yourself by picturing your life as a whole; do not assemble in your mind the many and varied troubles which have come to you in the past and will come again in the future, but ask yourself with regard to every present difficulty: 'What is there in this that is unbearable and beyond endurance?' You would be ashamed to confess it! And then remind yourself that it is not the future or what has passed that afflicts you, but always the present, and the power of this is much diminished if you take it in isolation and call your mind to task if it thinks that it cannot stand up to it when taken on its own."

 

The wisdom of Marcus Aurelius, a Stoic philosopher, a Roman Emperor and a warrior.

 

Free ebook here:

 

Meditations

 

Practical 'enlightenment':

 

100 Things I Learned in 10 Years and 100 Reads of Marcus Aurelius’ ‘Meditations’

[roger]

I would like to ask the following:

 

2. What different levels of enlightenment exist which are accessible to a human being?

 

3. What is the difference between these levels?

 

My understanding is that there are two main levels of enlightenment.

 

The first is liberation, which the Zen Buddhists call "little enlightenment."

 

The second is realization, which the Zen Buddhists call "big enlightenment."

 

Liberation, or little enlightenment, is when you've understood and accepted divine truth.

 

Realization, or big enlightenment, is after you've fully LIVED that truth, after you've fully experienced it. At that point, you fully embody it.

 

So basically, first you find the truth, then you have to fully live it and experience it.

[awaken]

My understanding is that there are two main levels of enlightenment.

 

The first is liberation, which the Zen Buddhists call "little enlightenment."

 

The second is realization, which the Zen Buddhists call "big enlightenment."

 

Liberation, or little enlightenment, is when you've understood and accepted divine truth.

 

Realization, or big enlightenment, is after you've fully LIVED that truth, after you've fully experienced it. At that point, you fully embody it.

 

So basically, first you find the truth, then you have to fully live it and experience it.

I would say

 

Little enlightenment is knowing the direction of our own true face.

 

Big enlightenment is open the emptiness, just like Lao zi said, 有欲觀其竅，無欲觀其妙，抱一能無離