Mantra and Dharani Samadhi as skilful means to reach enlightenment

[DSCB57]

I would like to ask the following questions:

 

1. Can Mantra and Dharani Samadhi and Mantra/Dharani repetition/chanting lead to enlightenment?

 

2. Is this a recognized method? Is anyone here following this method, and would you be willing to discuss it?

 

3. Which branches of Buddhism practice Mantra and Dharani Samadhi as an enlightenment method? How does this work?

 

4. How does such practice transform or destroy akusala karma?

[Spotless]

I would like to ask the following questions:

 

1. Can Mantra and Dharani Samadhi and Mantra/Dharani repetition/chanting lead to enlightenment?

 

2. Is this a recognized method? Is anyone here following this method, and would you be willing to discuss it?

 

3. Which branches of Buddhism practice Mantra and Dharani Samadhi as an enlightenment method? How does this work?

 

4. How does such practice transform or destroy akusala karma?

End Quote

 

 

Karma is not a substance and it is not a build up of points for or against you.

Karma is the matrix of the frequencies of the illusion in which you have bound yourself within.

 

As you move "up" the ladder towards Enlightenment, Divine Natural Essence - "Self" becomes more clearly shown to the you that is confined to the karmic frequencies you hold yourself to. As the stuck energies are released - as grasping is unhinged and reduced the energies increasingly flow and store up and transform.

 

Mantras are simply mechanical means to helping you be out of your frequencies of karma which oppress your abilities to hear and know your Self. They can also have a certain kinship with higher realms or aspects.

 

For some they also are trance inducing which can be helpful for the more concretized individuals but trance is something to also be aware of as a very real detour into high minded fantasy.

 

None of these "processes" lead to Enlightenment - they help to nudge you into moving from karma (your Chinese finger puzzle) to no longer playing that illusion. You have never had karmic debt and you will never receive karma points. You do have various types of glue holding you to your illusion (karma) and certain actions will help to loosen that glue and certain actions will increase the glues strength. The glues (grasping) are your positions and beliefs.

 

Why do those that have reached Enlightenment say that they know nothing?

They are not fools.

In the illusion - in our karma - we "know" many things. The road to Enlightenmennt is getting past all these things we know.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Spotless

[SeekerOfHealing]

Can Mantra and Dharani Samadhi and Mantra/Dharani repetition/chanting lead to enlightenment?

No, from my definition of enlightenment - no chance.

 

2. Is this a recognized method? Is anyone here following this method, and would you be willing to discuss it?

Yes, it's recognized method.

 

Which branches of Buddhism practice Mantra and Dharani Samadhi as an enlightenment method? How does this work?

Pure Land mostly, Chan and some of Varjayana schools.

 

4. How does such practice transform or destroy akusala karma?

None. Some mantras have qualities of transform your karma itself. Most potent are Usnisa Dharani, Cundi Dharani and Pali Parittas.

[Fa Xin]

Why wouldn't mantras work?

 

They are essentially a thought combined with speech. and repetition.

 

When it comes to correcting your thoughts, your speech ...hold something you feel is great, supreme or very important ... and repeat.

 

in moments, many times when I'm flustered or confused, a mantra will bring me to the center / peace.

 

I think of it as a reset button.  When you start to stray in moments, you reset back to the center, get your bearings.

 

After all, life is just a series of moments.

 

Not to overcomplicate the issue or anything, just my 02

[Spotless]

Mantras are excellent as you mentioned.

 

I have never thought of them as a "thought" but more as a "note" like a musical note or tone(s).

 

They are very helpful in getting us out of Mind / Noise / Clutter.

 

Or as mentioned - a reset back to center.

[Vajra Fist]

Yes, if you read any book by Bill Bodri he will recommend mantra (and the cundi mantra in particular) as a valid dharma door to samadi.

 

In reply to seeker of healing, I'm grateful of the recommendation of the Usnisa Dharani. I did a lot of reading about it last night and found it fascinating.

 

Has anyone had any experience chanting it long term?

[SeekerOfHealing]

The most experiences I had was with Usnisa Dharani. The moment I started to recite it some "holy" or "divine" Qi or energy goes thru my body cleansing I guess the karma which is not seen. My life always get litter better after Usnisa. It's really the only mantra you need as this is the only mantra and deity with this mantra who can clear your fixed karma - none other in history of buddhism and mantrayana such thing is possible. Only Usnisa Bodhisattva can take karma of yours to itself and still it have some limitations. 

[Vajra Fist]

I think that's quite a broad statement and as a practicing Pure Land Buddhist I would respectfully disagree. But thank you for sharing your experiences and also for letting those of us who hadnt heard of the mantra know about it in the first place.

[SeekerOfHealing]

It can be easy to incorporate Nembutsu/Amitofo with Usnisa to make progress faster as Amida do not pick you up unless you really let go. 

[DSCB57]

No, from my definition of enlightenment - no chance.

 

Yes, it's recognized method.

 

Pure Land mostly, Chan and some of Varjayana schools.

 

None. Some mantras have qualities of transform your karma itself. Most potent are Usnisa Dharani, Cundi Dharani and Pali Parittas.

 

 

Thank you. Yes, the Usnisa Dharani is one of the aspects of Vajrapani, this is the main focus of my practice, actually the wrathful aspects to be more precise, to be followed by the MahaCundi Mantras and Dharanis to enter more into the heart/compassion rather than the forma pure Vajra destructive practices. 

So why do you say that in your opinion there is no chance of such cultivation practices leading to enlightenment/Buddhahood?

 

Since several of you have shown an interest in these Dharanis, I thought I would post a link to this site, which you may find useful:

 

https://medium.com/vajra-resources/vajrapani-98d2fbb7d37c

 

Blessings

Edited January 29, 2017 by DSCB57

[DSCB57]

Why wouldn't mantras work?

 

They are essentially a thought combined with speech. and repetition.

 

When it comes to correcting your thoughts, your speech ...hold something you feel is great, supreme or very important ... and repeat.

 

in moments, many times when I'm flustered or confused, a mantra will bring me to the center / peace.

 

I think of it as a reset button.  When you start to stray in moments, you reset back to the center, get your bearings.

 

After all, life is just a series of moments.

 

Not to overcomplicate the issue or anything, just my 02

 

Sorry, but you seem to have a rather limited view of what Mantras are and how they work. It is more a question of vibration. The sound or tone of the Mantra (or Dharanis which contain multiple chains of such Mantras) actually set up a vibration, and it is this which produces a powerful resonant effect within the different vehicles - principally the Nirmanakaya and Sambogakhaya - left and right side energies - and begin to purify the entire being of the practitioner. As others have said, these are also directly connected to specific deities, which could also be thought of as archetypes of the mind in its different states of consciousness. These are very much more than just a reset button. 

 

Furthermore, it is not simply a case of repetition. Samadhi is only achieved once the Mantra or Dharani constantly repeats itself in one's mind day and night. Only then can one move onto repeat the process with another Mantra or Dharani. This has both positive and negative effects and can be extremely uncomfortable from my short experience with this form of cultivation.

 

You may want to research the science of Cymatics or Kymatics to gain further understanding about these vibrational frequencies as reflected upon different materials, from water through sand. Interestingly each vowel sound manifests with a specific form within different media. A good start is the MahaMantra 'Om'. It is very interesting to observe the energy blueprint the sound produces, especially in sand. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by DSCB57

[SeekerOfHealing]

Because Buddhahood or cessation of suffering is related to the hindrances and emptying them out. You can not do that by chanting mantra or anything like that. By chanting you can get some blessings etc. but they are generally useless in such thing. It's more like related to the having karmic comfort in this world and sewing good karmas that who knows when they spring.

 

No, it's not. What you spreading is actually a hoax which most schools sells. (I have two initiations into two mantrayana schools) and they do not agree with your view of mantra practice. 

 

Vibration is still hindrance by buddhism view. Still clinging so still creating suffering and still being reborn with triple realm.

 

Enlightenment is only for those who see independent origination which Buddha was originally enlighten to. The rest are side paths and misunderstandings or cultivation illusions/delusion so to speak. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[EmeraldHead]

Mantra is concentration practice. To achieve enlightement you need insight practice. The author from personalpowermeditation website said in a comment once that he experienced some stages that by some schools (not all) is considered enlightement. 

[Sudhamma]

1. Can Mantra and Dharani Samadhi and Mantra/Dharani repetition/chanting lead to enlightenment?

Answer: The 8-Fold Path is the most basic path towards Enlightenment, not mantras which has its origin in Tantric paractices nor dharanis which are part of Mahayana practices. Mantras and Dharanis are methods used to focus the Mind and in more subtle spiritual intent to invoke spiritual protection. Samadi, the one-pointed (mental) concentration is part of the 8-Fold Path. To be awaken or enlightened, the practitioner must know the reason why and the object of attaining The 'Awakening' or Enlightenment. This (Buddhist) Enlightenment is very different from the Daoist perspective. 

 

2. Is this a recognized method? Is anyone here following this method, and would you be willing to discuss it?

Answer: From my view-point and trust that it is also that of the Theravadins, being attached to mantra-chanting as the main cultivation practice is not a recognized method. You should proceed to study the basic, and most original teaching of the Buddha to know why mantras nor dharanis are not methods to attain Buddha-hood.

 

 

3. Which branches of Buddhism practice Mantra and Dharani Samadhi as an enlightenment method? How does this work?

Answer: All major main-stream branches of Buddhism practise samadhi or one-pointed concentration, and chant mantras/dharanis(Mahayana sects) and Mahaparitas (Theravada sects). To answer your 2nd question, I shall quote a text from 'The Great Book of Protections' or Ctubhanavarapali Maha Pirit Pota: "(Dharanis or) Spells form an important part of popular Buddhism; but they have nothing in themselves peculiarly characteristic of Buddhism. They are a form of sympathetic magic, which consists in asserting (along with certain ritual actions), that a certain wished event is taking place and by the power of the word it is supposed that if every detail is properly performed the event does happen." - Edward J. Thomas (History of Buddhist Thought).

 

4. How does such practice transform or destroy akusala karma?

Answer: Akusala kamma (sanskrit, karma) are 'unwholesome' kamma. To destroy or suppress the fruition of unwholesome kamma depends upon how to suppress it with kusala kamma (wholesome kamma), and how 'weighty' is the unwholesome kamma. There are 5 weighty akusala kamma that can't be suppressed: killing of father, mother, holy-man, arahant, and Buddha. Akusala kamma cannot be eradicated nor suppressed and the best way is the practise of Perfections (Paramittas) to improve one's store of  kusala kamma. To begin the understanding of what is karma (pali, kamma), study the Dependent Origination, and understand how karma is formed/originated, and how rebirth is conditioned. In conclusion, by fervent chanting of sutras (or suttas), or mantras cannot destroy akusala karma, and you need to acquire and practise the Buddha-Dhamma knowledge and wisdom, and put in effort in its practice and samadhi to begin your journey of emanicipation. Knowledge, Wisdom and Effort are the three-part process of the 8-Fold Path. There is no short-cut.

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by Sudhamma

[Spotless]

Quote from SeekerOfHealing:

 

1. "Because Buddhahood or cessation of suffering is related to the hindrances and emptying them out.

 

2. "You can not do that by chanting mantra or anything like that."

 

3. "By chanting you can get some blessings etc. but they are generally useless in such thing. It's more like related to the having karmic comfort in this world and sewing good karmas that who knows when they spring. :)"

End Quote

 

------------

 

This is simply incorrect.

 

In the first sentence you seem to intimate that Buddhahood and the cessation of suffering are one - yet I can assure you from my personal susstained experience that suffering ceases prior to Buddhahood unless I am being very modest. It ceases as one has settled into Awakening.

 

Your understanding of mantras is simply way off the mark. The post previous to yours by "DSCB57" was fairly right on the mark.

 

On the simple level - mantra helps to keep mind noise down - and it helps in having Presence in a particular area of ones spatiel reference such as resting in the center of ones head or heart.

 

Mantra does indeed have beneficial tonal vibratory benefits regarding the release of hindrances. Particularly those hindrances like a loose shingle on a roof that simply need a bit of breeze for them to drop away.

 

Also your understanding of Karma and the idea of "sowing good Karma's" is more a religious viewpoint (misunderstanding) and along the lines of moral teaching and an effect of indoctrination.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Spotless

[Spotless]

1. Can Mantra and Dharani Samadhi and Mantra/Dharani repetition/chanting lead to enlightenment?

Answer: The 8-Fold Path is the most basic path towards Enlightenment, not mantras which has its origin in Tantric paractices nor dharanis which are part of Mahayana practices. Mantras and Dharanis are methods used to focus the Mind and in more subtle spiritual intent to invoke spiritual protection. Samadi, the one-pointed (mental) concentration is part of the 8-Fold Path. To be awaken or enlightened, the practitioner must know the reason why and the object of attaining The 'Awakening' or Enlightenment. This (Buddhist) Enlightenment is very different from the Daoist perspective.

 

2. Is this a recognized method? Is anyone here following this method, and would you be willing to discuss it?

Answer: From my view-point and trust that it is also that of the Theravadins, being attached to mantra-chanting as the main cultivation practice is not a recognized method. You should proceed to study the basic, and most original teaching of the Buddha to know why mantras nor dharanis are not methods to attain Buddha-hood.

 

 

3. Which branches of Buddhism practice Mantra and Dharani Samadhi as an enlightenment method? How does this work?

Answer: All major main-stream branches of Buddhism practise samadhi or one-pointed concentration, and chant mantras/dharanis(Mahayana sects) and Mahaparitas (Theravada sects). To answer your 2nd question, I shall quote a text from 'The Great Book of Protections' or Ctubhanavarapali Maha Pirit Pota: "(Dharanis or) Spells form an important part of popular Buddhism; but they have nothing in themselves peculiarly characteristic of Buddhism. They are a form of sympathetic magic, which consists in asserting (along with certain ritual actions), that a certain wished event is taking place and by the power of the word it is supposed that if every detail is properly performed the event does happen." - Edward J. Thomas (History of Buddhist Thought).

 

4. How does such practice transform or destroy akusala karma?

Answer: Akusala kamma (sanskrit, karma) are 'unwholesome' kamma. To destroy or suppress the fruition of unwholesome kamma depends upon how to suppress it with kusala kamma (wholesome kamma), and how 'weighty' is the unwholesome kamma. There are 5 weighty akusala kamma that can't be suppressed: killing of father, mother, holy-man, arahant, and Buddha. Akusala kamma cannot be eradicated nor suppressed and the best way is the practise of Perfections (Paramittas) to improve one's store of kusala kamma. To begin the understanding of what is karma (pali, kamma), study the Dependent Origination, and understand how karma is formed/originated, and how rebirth is conditioned. In conclusion, by fervent chanting of sutras (or suttas), or mantras cannot destroy akusala karma, and you need to acquire and practise the Buddha-Dhamma knowledge and wisdom, and put in effort in its practice and samadhi to begin your journey of emanicipation. Knowledge, Wisdom and Effort are the three-part process of the 8-Fold Path. There is no short-cut.

 

At some point or another one will reach a point in which ones books are a hindrance. However good and perfect they may be.

 

You may have covered yourself by saying:

"being attached to mantra-chanting as the main cultivation practice is not a recognized method"

 

Being "Attached" to any practice is not a recognized method.

 

The original poster did not ask if it was the end all but simply if it was a"skillful means" toward Enlightenment and the use of Mantra's certainly can be without question regardless of how many times you might wish to pound the square peg into the round hole that this or that book that you have misunderstood or has been mistranslated state it's lack of merits and then go on to extrapolate into magic and other unrelated issues not germaine to this discussion or mantras in this context.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Spotless

[rex]

What's mantra got? It's got the lot!

 

Mantras are the manifestation in sound of particular qualities of enlightened awareness, inseparable from the aspect that is being expressed.  Recitation can lead to profound states of inner stillness, with clarity and bliss conjoined with emptiness.

[SeekerOfHealing]

 

What's mantra got? It's got the lot!

 

Mantras are the manifestation in sound of particular qualities of enlightened awareness, inseparable from the aspect that is being expressed.  Recitation can lead to profound states of inner stillness, with clarity and bliss conjoined with emptiness.

 

 

No it can't. If they do it would be worldwide phenomena, but they can do some nice things to you.

[rex]

   

 

No it can't. If they do it would be worldwide phenomena, but they can do some nice things to you.

I beg to differ.

[DSCB57]

Some of your answers have been very convincing and instructive, however I think that it is obvious that each person has their own view based upon their own experiences and level of attainment, and pretty much every online forum is the same. So let's be clear. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but I am really not interested in opinions. I asked a very specific question. The only way anyone can truthfully answer in the affirmative is if they have actually experienced awakening as a direct result of practising Mantra and Dharani repetition and attainment of Samadhi. Equally if you are stating that this is not a skillful means to such attainment you need to demonstrate the fact with more than just conjecture or opinion. If you are enlightened and you can explain precisely why this practise cannot lead to a similar state of awakening to that which you are experiencing, then I would l like you to explain this to me please. I am not attached to this or any other practice, but if I continue to practise as I am being advised to it will require most of my time and every ounce of my effort and I need to know that this will bear fruit, and fruit of the right kind. 

 

For my part I can say that the practice seems to produce certain specific effects within a very short space of time, so I am in no doubt as to these being powerful practices, and the ability to maintain a constantly repeating mantra in mind whilst simultaneously engaging in other activities - mental and physical multi-tasking is no doubt a useful skill - it really surprised me to find that I was capable of reading something totally different whilst maintaining a relatively complicated mantra constantly repeating, and be able to also think in parallel!

I found that it also greatly enhanced my Qigong/Neigong Cultivation and physical strength and stamina, as well as resistance to pain and discomfort. If you have never practised this type of Samadhi, try watching a video while maintaining even a short mantra constantly repeating in your mind - now add subtitles and try reading them. after that allow yourself to think about either the video or the mantra simultaneously. Or try having a conversation with someone or driving whilst keeping the mantra going in your mind. Then you will have some idea of the concentration this requires, and the kind of skill set you are likely to develop from such a practice. Now imagine doing the same with entire Dharanis...this is what is required of me if I am to pursue this path, so it is not to be taken lightly - it is going to require a considerable sustained effort on my part, and I need to know that this will be time spent wisely.

 

I also want to confirm whether what I have been told can be achieved through the practice is true, which is basically anything from Arhanthood through complete Buddhahood - basically any level of enlightenment. 

 

By the way, once you become adept at this, it becomes too easy to think simultaneously whilst keeping the mantra constantly repeating in one's mind, then I feel it is somewhat taking a step backwards, as the mantra no longer serves to silence the mind once it becomes more or less automatic. However I am certainly not at the point at which the same can be said of my Dharani repetition

 

 

[rex]

I asked a very specific question. The only way anyone can truthfully answer in the affirmative is if they have actually experienced awakening as a direct result of practising Mantra and Dharani repetition and attainment of Samadhi. Equally if you are stating that this is not a skillful means to such attainment you need to demonstrate the fact with more than just conjecture or opinion.

 

I also want to confirm whether what I have been told can be achieved through the practice is true, which is basically anything from Arhanthood through complete Buddhahood - basically any level of enlightenment. 

If you hang round Buddhist circles you will notice that no one ever admits to being enlightened or even claims any sort of realisation whatsoever. Even revered teachers won't claim any special qualities and great practitioners go unnoticed in their lifetime and are only recognised by how well they die. No one speaks of their attainments either, though they do speak of their non-attainments.

 

Personal practice will be the only confirmation you'll get. Sit with revered teachers with no special qualities, especially when they're sitting in silence and see what you experience and how that experience can be deepened and matured through following spiritual instructions and practices. No one is going to tell you anything, they'll give pointers but you'll have to do the work. If you're worried about wasting your time check out really elderly practitioners who've been practicing for a lifetime and see if they've got something that you lack but want.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

If you hang round Buddhist circles you will notice that no one ever admits to being enlightened or even claims any sort of realisation whatsoever.[...] No one speaks of their attainments either, though they do speak of their non-attainments.

 

Generally true. There is something to be said for not being hasty to claim things or showing off, but that has swung so far now that it's become sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy where people exaggerate how high various attainments are and how impossible it is to achieve them, and thus don't achieve them. The Pragmatic Dharma folks have a better attitude about these things.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Seeker of Wisdom

[laughingblade]

How can thought take you beyond thought?

[Fa Xin]

Sorry, but you seem to have a rather limited view of what Mantras are and how they work. It is more a question of vibration. The sound or tone of the Mantra (or Dharanis which contain multiple chains of such Mantras) actually set up a vibration, and it is this which produces a powerful resonant effect within the different vehicles - principally the Nirmanakaya and Sambogakhaya - left and right side energies - and begin to purify the entire being of the practitioner. As others have said, these are also directly connected to specific deities, which could also be thought of as archetypes of the mind in its different states of consciousness. These are very much more than just a reset button. 

 

Furthermore, it is not simply a case of repetition. Samadhi is only achieved once the Mantra or Dharani constantly repeats itself in one's mind day and night. Only then can one move onto repeat the process with another Mantra or Dharani. This has both positive and negative effects and can be extremely uncomfortable from my short experience with this form of cultivation.

 

You may want to research the science of Cymatics or Kymatics to gain further understanding about these vibrational frequencies as reflected upon different materials, from water through sand. Interestingly each vowel sound manifests with a specific form within different media. A good start is the MahaMantra 'Om'. It is very interesting to observe the energy blueprint the sound produces, especially in sand. 

I can appreciate the power of vibrations and I do indeed agree with your post.

 

The question I pose to you is this:

does a silent mantra still work via vibration?

[Fa Xin]

How can thought take you beyond thought?

Isnt it all thought ?