Mantra and Dharani Samadhi as skilful means to reach enlightenment

[EmeraldHead]

How can thought take you beyond thought?

Mantra is supposed to cause concentration. Look at the example DSCB57 gave above.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Arramu

[Spotless]

DSCB57

Quote:

"Some of your answers have been very convincing and instructive, however I think that it is obvious that each person has their own view based upon their own experiences and level of attainment, and pretty much every online forum is the same. So let's be clear. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but I am really not interested in opinions. I asked a very specific question. The only way anyone can truthfully answer in the affirmative is if they have actually experienced awakening as a direct result of practising Mantra and Dharani repetition and attainment of Samadhi. Equally if you are stating that this is not a skillful means to such attainment you need to demonstrate the fact with more than just conjecture or opinion. If you are enlightened and you can explain precisely why this practise cannot lead to a similar state of awakening to that which you are experiencing, then I would l like you to explain this to me please. I am not attached to this or any other practice, but if I continue to practise as I am being advised to it will require most of my time and every ounce of my effort and I need to know that this will bear fruit, and fruit of the right kind."

End Quote

 

You state in the above quote: "The only way anyone can truthfully answer in the affirmative is if they have actually experienced awakening as a direct result of practising Mantra and Dharani repetition and attainment of Samadhi"

 

This is not true.

 

It is possible to say with certainty that practicing it can lead to Awakening without having attained "it" as a direct result.

 

It is also interesting to note that to this day - when I think Om - it is there deeply in a long long stretching resonance.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Mantra is supposed to cause concentration. Look at the example DSCB57 gave above.

"Concentration" is perhaps an unfortunate choice of wording or only one fragrance of many pointing toward a meaning along those lines.

 

Mantra helps to move from "the noise" and so ones attention becomes more focused in stillness rather than dissipation.

The resonating moves from head to no head. It helps to see/feel/know oneness.

 

Where does the vibration end - it becomes apparent that it has no end - no spactial containment - that it is somehow part of all.

This has a very real consequence upon the body/being relationship. It breaks down "I" - singularity - separateness.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Spotless

[laughingblade]

Isnt it all thought ? 

Are you having a laugh? Even if we're only hacking the meat there are surely levels of brain function way below the thresholds of conscoius thought... or can you watch individual nerons firing?

[laughingblade]

Mantra is supposed to cause concentration. Look at the example DSCB57 gave above.

DSCB57's logic is corrupt - s/he wants a person enlightened by another technique to argue why mantra cannot get enlightenment - that's fallacious. If I got it via X then why should I know anything at all about Y? Enlightenment isn't omniscience. Based on his/her inability to put the point I'd have to say the example is suspect too.

 

Anyway... lots of practices assist with concentration - anapanasati for example. Concentration isn't enlightenment... so with anapanasati ther are other practices/aspects once concentration has been achieved. With mantra... well. I assume the same... so mantra will aid concentration, but not get enlightenment.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

A short practice years ago with 108 mala



OM AH HUM BENZA GURU PEMA SIDDHI HUM

I would say 108 x 2-3 the mind becomes still, once experiencing myself somewhat removed watching the space inside me spinning around? I recall asking here what that was, none seemed to know *shrugs*

Also saying this mantra combined with candle gazing, after 2 nights a lucid dream

Oct 02 2015 - 15 minutes fire gazing with Padmasambhava Mantra playing in background + afternoon sun-gazing.

Dream:@ high-school rugby practice, later going to the locker room, I opened my locker and it was full of different pictures of foxes I turned around and a teacher/ presence appeared (not from the school) wearing a type of robe, brief discussion I recall 'you should meditate for 2 hours a day' and turned around and seemed to glide away, 2 others standing each side of the teacher... thinking/feeling maybe a fox deity, unsure.

~~~

My practice has to become more serious ha ... I start and get sidetracked

I think it can lead to enlightenment, If you want enlightenment you will find it sooner or later. I think everything is desire. There are healthy and unhealthy desires, some earthly and some divine.

Say I wanted to lucid dream, I read some things on it, practiced it, experienced it and started to develop it

  Edited February 1, 2017 by Sionnach

[DSCB57]

DSCB57's logic is corrupt - s/he wants a person enlightened by another technique to argue why mantra cannot get enlightenment - that's fallacious. If I got it via X then why should I know anything at all about Y? Enlightenment isn't omniscience. Based on his/her inability to put the point I'd have to say the example is suspect too.

 

Anyway... lots of practices assist with concentration - anapanasati for example. Concentration isn't enlightenment... so with anapanasati ther are other practices/aspects once concentration has been achieved. With mantra... well. I assume the same... so mantra will aid concentration, but not get enlightenment.

 

I am a he, and my name is David. You accuse my logic of being corrupt - I don't feel that was really called for, but I am not about to let that affect me. 

You say enlightenment isn't omniscience. That too is a fallacious statement, because if you read the Buddha Suttras, the enlightenment Gautama Buddha describes is without limit. You however are placing limits upon this attainment without presumably having attained enlightenment yourself? therefore your argument is presented within your own experiential framework. And if you have experienced some degree of enlightenment, the limitation you place upon your perception which is presumably passing through the filter of your enlightened state is indicative of the fact that it is no where near full enlightenment, thus you are in no position to judge what enlightenment is or is not, and this is also why you are reacting in this way to my request. Does that sound logical?

That is precisely why I said that I am not interested in opinions. As far as I am concerned, if someone is truly enlightened, they become inseparable from Truth, and as such are able to identify that which is Truth and that which is not Truth (without attachment or clinging to whether it is Truth or not Truth). So unless one has come to that point I feel that the only thing they can offer is their opinion based upon their own experience and understanding. In such a state they are in no condition to judge whether any Dharma is or is not Truth. 

Incidentally my own glimpse of the enlightened state showed me that enlightenment is indeed omniscient. If one ceases to experience the separative consciousness, then what do you think the expression of being is which remains if not omniscient? Do you not believe that Tao is omniscient? What is not Tao?

 

I have no difficulty with regard to concentration, or at least I know how to concentrate. But that is no more than the first step on the path, the pinnacle of which is supreme enlightenment, or liberation from Samsara. And yes, I am trying to make sure that my remaining time is not wasted, or to put it another way that my efforts are expended in the right direction to enable me to achieve my potential during this lifetime. 

So I am doing my best to intelligently sort the wheat from the chaff. 

[DSCB57]

A short practice years ago with 108 mala

 

 

OM AH HUM BENZA GURU PEMA SIDDHI HUM

 

 

I would say 108 x 2-3 the mind becomes still, once experiencing myself somewhat removed watching the space inside me spinning around? I recall asking here what that was, none seemed to know *shrugs*

 

Also saying this mantra combined with candle gazing, after 2 nights a lucid dream

 

Oct 02 2015 - 15 minutes fire gazing with Padmasambhava Mantra playing in background + afternoon sun-gazing.

 

Dream:@ high-school rugby practice, later going to the locker room, I opened my locker and it was full of different pictures of foxes I turned around and a teacher/ presence appeared (not from the school) wearing a type of robe, brief discussion I recall 'you should meditate for 2 hours a day' and turned around and seemed to glide away, 2 others standing each side of the teacher... thinking/feeling maybe a fox deity, unsure.

 

~~~

 

My practice has to become more serious ha ... I start and get sidetracked

 

I think it can lead to enlightenment, If you want enlightenment you will find it sooner or later. I think everything is desire. There are healthy and unhealthy desires, some earthly and some divine.

 

Say I wanted to lucid dream, I read some things on it, practiced it, experienced it and started to develop it

 

 

 

That mantra (also spoken as Om Ah Hum Vajra Guru Pema Siddhe Hung) is from Tibetan Buddhist doctrine and it is precisely what I was talking about in another post. You are taking refuge in the Lama as the Guru. This really has nothing to do with authentic Buddha Dharma, and is nowhere near as powerful as the simple 6 fold mantra Om Mani Padme Hum (not Hung as pronounced by Tibetan Buddhists). Not surprising then that all it did was provide you with the sort of experience you describe. But then again if you are happy with lucid dreaming then each to his own.

[Vajra Fist]

I think the only person who has ever claimed full enlightenment here on daobums is dawg. His thread is absolutely brilliant by the way, and well worth a read from the beginning.

 

He says: "No matter what anyone "claims"... you can never reach enlightenment by reciting a mantra... all it will do is make good karma for you... to reach enlightenment you must destroy the delusion in your subconscious mind... otherwise you are still creating karma, and if you are still creating karma, you will continue to be born and die"

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/30012-a-path-to-enlightenment/page-5

 

This is specifically in regards to a question on the zhunti mantra.

 

My understanding is that in Pure Land, enlightenment within this lifetime is not necessarily the goal of reciting the name of Amitabha. Instead, it is to sow the seeds for rebirth in Sukhavati, where one will attain non-retrogression, be free from samsara and will eventually achieve full realisation.

 

Aside from that, yes chanting Amitabha's name is peaceful, joyful and can lead to samadhi. Achieving awakening in one lifetime might not necessarily happen, but achieving enlightenment in the next life is absolutely assured by Amitabha's grace.

[laughingblade]

I am a he, and my name is David. You accuse my logic of being corrupt - I don't feel that was really called for, but I am not about to let that affect me. 

You say enlightenment isn't omniscience. That too is a fallacious statement, because if you read the Buddha Suttras, the enlightenment Gautama Buddha describes is without limit. You however are placing limits upon this attainment without presumably having attained enlightenment yourself? therefore your argument is presented within your own experiential framework. And if you have experienced some degree of enlightenment, the limitation you place upon your perception which is presumably passing through the filter of your enlightened state is indicative of the fact that it is no where near full enlightenment, thus you are in no position to judge what enlightenment is or is not, and this is also why you are reacting in this way to my request. Does that sound logical?

That is precisely why I said that I am not interested in opinions. As far as I am concerned, if someone is truly enlightened, they become inseparable from Truth, and as such are able to identify that which is Truth and that which is not Truth (without attachment or clinging to whether it is Truth or not Truth). So unless one has come to that point I feel that the only thing they can offer is their opinion based upon their own experience and understanding. In such a state they are in no condition to judge whether any Dharma is or is not Truth. 

Incidentally my own glimpse of the enlightened state showed me that enlightenment is indeed omniscient. If one ceases to experience the separative consciousness, then what do you think the expression of being is which remains if not omniscient? Do you not believe that Tao is omniscient? What is not Tao?

 

I have no difficulty with regard to concentration, or at least I know how to concentrate. But that is no more than the first step on the path, the pinnacle of which is supreme enlightenment, or liberation from Samsara. And yes, I am trying to make sure that my remaining time is not wasted, or to put it another way that my efforts are expended in the right direction to enable me to achieve my potential during this lifetime. 

So I am doing my best to intelligently sort the wheat from the chaff. 

 

Hi David! No offence intended - it's all fairly fluid gender-wise these days. And yes, corrupt *was* a little strong.

 

While making no claims myself to enlightenment I know plenty who do so I'm basing my comments on what they tell me, and while they have varying abilities none are AFAIK omniscient. I think you're misinterpreting the phrase 'without limits' to mean 'with and ability you can imagine'. Such abilities are functions of various vehicles, while enlightenment is beyond the conditions of any vehicle - liberation from them all, as you say.

 

With respect, I think when you're enlightened (and I sincerely hope you get it) you'll see that the 'glimpses' you've had so far were nothing of the sort, and that the realisation blows anything prior to it to smithereens.

 

We do agree that concentration is but the first step on the path. You'll agree then that if mantra leads (merely) to concentration it doesn't lead to enlightenment.

[Pilgrim]

Mantra Is a great technology / tool.

 

This is a Buddhist discussion section so I have remained silent. If it is wished come join me over at the Hindu Discussion and I will describe in the Kriya yoga section how and why Mantra is used it may or may not prove interesting.

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43045-kriya-yoga/page-7

 

In the meantime I am educating myself concerning Buddhism because there is so much that parallels and so much that does not and there is much wisdom and reflection of what is known.

[Who.am.i]

Many tibetan masters have stated that the mani mantra is a complete path all by itself. After working with the mani for several years myself i am of the conviction that it is true as they have said. Although I'm not there yet, i have experienced enough to realize that it can take anyone all the way and eliminate all the karmic obscurations that are in the way of realizing the awakened state and enlightenment.

 

It should be used along with bodhicitta, the intention that all beings be happy, free from suffering, and realize the true nature of mind.

 

You should also see everything as manifestations of deity, mantra, and wisdom. All forms are the body of chenresig, all sounds are forms of the mani mantra, all thoughts as the wisdom of chenresig.

 

If you keep these things in mind it can be a complete path. This goes for all other mantras also that can be used for liberation. The guru rinpoche mantra is another good one from the tibetan heritage

 

I'm out of time now so when i get a chance i'll give sources and links for examples of people who have achieved enlightenment through mantra of various sorts

[Spotless]

No practice per se will lead to Enlightenment - yet many practices can lead to Enlightenment.

 

The question asked in the original post has no answer that will be accepted by the asker.

 

This is not a linear progression.

 

At any point a practice may lead to the shift of Awakening and Enlightening - but it may in fact be washing the dishes.

 

Retraction from the illusion rarely happens slowly in the sense that "you barely see that it is happening". And sometimes one can be fairly misled by siddhis and other abilities that one acquires - thinking "this is the road to Enlightenment". Healing abilities, clairvoyance of all types and astral travel are some of the first and most basic abilities and they will be seen as monumental - which they are and then again they are siddhis and quite normal common new abilities.

 

Dawg awoke not long after I awoke and I remember congratulating him here and listening to the words he chose to use from a lineage he came from - his words regarding Mantra and it never leading to Enlightenment were - I would assume -  to be along the lines of what I said above. And even if he claimed full enlightenment I'm sure he would either laugh at that claim now or we would need to look into his definition. Many consider a full residence in the Awakened shift as full Enlightenment. Some reach Oneness / Unity in the first shift and consider this Enlightenment only to later experience Awakening and come to see an entirely different level presence.

 

The shift from Awakening to Oneness/Unity is much more subtle as the Enlightening presence comes increasingly forth. Awakening is the shift from the "delusion in your subconscious mind" as Dawg has said to quote him - but this wording I perceive as confusing to many. MIND, Higher Mind, Subconscious Mind, Focused Mind - for some this type of wording works, for many I see it is too close for erroneous misunderstandings and it is "old school" meaning that it is wording from the 70s.

Westernized wording that is familiar but carries with it lots of baggage. Not far from using the word God to speak of what I call Divine Natural Essence and which is also called more commonly now Presence or Divine Presence or All Pervading Presence.

 

When we talk along the lines of what will lead to Enlightenment - we have to assume a false premise:

That we are talking about a "new" being that has taken on the role of good and evil and must from then supposedly follow a pristine road to overcome this illusion - and given this false premise we then ask:  "from this state what will lead to Enlightenment".

 

I have never met such a human being. For some it may be that the Universe has created the perfect timing of a large Burp just after drinking a relatively cheap beer in a slimy joint - for another it may be years of a particular meditation practice and for others it might be in the midst of some horrible event.

 

There is no "secret sauce" that leads to Enlightenment

The Seeker is not looking for what leads to Enlightenment even if that is what he is convince of and even if the words seem to convey this. In between the lines IN HUGE BLOCK LETTERS stated over and over and over again and always discarded by each and every seeker is that Enlightenment is at hand and only the illusion has carried us away from our natural divine essence / presence.

 

The secret is not what "leads to Enlightenment" - the "secrets" are what lead out of darkness - the obscurations of our addiction to position - our favorite tensions - the comfort foods of our sleep. And these vary for each individual.

Practice is for US to hear OURSELF. We are the only ones with the anwers - though when ones head is so far up ones ass as to make only the echos audible  -  then assistance is helpful - and all that is needed is one to ask.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Spotless

[DSCB57]

DSCB57

Quote:

"Some of your answers have been very convincing and instructive, however I think that it is obvious that each person has their own view based upon their own experiences and level of attainment, and pretty much every online forum is the same. So let's be clear. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but I am really not interested in opinions. I asked a very specific question. The only way anyone can truthfully answer in the affirmative is if they have actually experienced awakening as a direct result of practising Mantra and Dharani repetition and attainment of Samadhi. Equally if you are stating that this is not a skillful means to such attainment you need to demonstrate the fact with more than just conjecture or opinion. If you are enlightened and you can explain precisely why this practise cannot lead to a similar state of awakening to that which you are experiencing, then I would l like you to explain this to me please. I am not attached to this or any other practice, but if I continue to practise as I am being advised to it will require most of my time and every ounce of my effort and I need to know that this will bear fruit, and fruit of the right kind."

End Quote

 

You state in the above quote: "The only way anyone can truthfully answer in the affirmative is if they have actually experienced awakening as a direct result of practising Mantra and Dharani repetition and attainment of Samadhi"

 

This is not true.

 

It is possible to say with certainty that it can without having attained "it" as a direct result.

 

It is also interesting to note that to this day - when I think Om - it is there deeply in a long long stretching resonance.

 

I agree up to a point, it is possible to say that, but saying something does not necessarily carry any real weight unless the person who happens to be making such an assertion is a sufficiently credible source, but is it then possible to say with certainty that this practice cannot serve to bring about the desired effect without having without having experienced such an awakening as a result? Yes, but only if it is being considered from the perspective of a sufficiently profound level of enlightenment. I really disagree that one should be able to differentiate between enlightenment as it occurs in different traditions, provided that what they bring about is true enlightenment - enlightenment is realization of our True Nature and the True Nature of all things. That state of consciousness is permanent and unchanging - the permanent found within the impermanent. Therefore the only differentiation is likely to occur in lesser states of awakening which are often mistaken for the state of full enlightenment. I think this is probably the issue here. 

However there is a further issue which does differentiate between the different traditions, and that is that Gautama Buddha himself stated that there was no other means to obtain liberation from Samsara and the wheel of rebirth other than the Noble Eightfold Path, the Dharma which all Buddhas teach. I feel it is important to consider whether the term 'Buddha' or 'Buddhahood' is restricted to the Buddhist religion or is it instead as Gautama said universal regardless of the form it takes.  The objective is not to seek Immortality or to remain in embodiment in physical form, whereas it is my understanding that most other traditions do not seek such total liberation. Many are content to be reborn in the Devic planes or other such or be reborn as gods, but according to the Buddha Dharma even these are impermanent and illusory. Reading what is said in the Suttras one comes to understand why even the gods and devas knelt before Gautama in reverance and came to listen and learn from the Buddha Dharma. 

Is there anything higher than the Buddha Dharma? I don't know, but are there any other traditions which can claim to teach how to liberate oneself totally? I don't know that either. I am here to learn.

[DSCB57]

Hi David! No offence intended - it's all fairly fluid gender-wise these days. And yes, corrupt *was* a little strong.

 

 

No harm done, thank you for your acknowledgement

 

While making no claims myself to enlightenment I know plenty who do so I'm basing my comments on what they tell me, and while they have varying abilities none are AFAIK omniscient. I think you're misinterpreting the phrase 'without limits' to mean 'with and ability you can imagine'. Such abilities are functions of various vehicles, while enlightenment is beyond the conditions of any vehicle - liberation from them all, as you say.

 

 

With respect, you can of course base your comments upon what these people tell you, but "it takes a Buddha to know one", as they say - until you are enlightened you are not in a position to determine whether in truth these people are actually in fact enlightened, nor can you I determine to what degree, if indeed they are enlightened. I have been duped so many times by charlatans, because it is not difficult to obtain a few siddhis and fool people by your use of the abilities thus gained. But this is appealing to the dualistic mind. Outside of the enlightened state everything is perceived within the duality of our unenlightened consciousness. 

In order to try and give a clearer explanation, there is a very simple analogy which is not my own invention: if you want to know what something tastes like, however much you ask as many culinary experts to explain the taste to you, you will never know what it tastes like until you taste it yourself. The same can be said for asking someone else to experience or describe the experience of enlightenment to you. Try as they might it is just not possible. But at least in the case of the former analogy it is relatively simple to verify whether or not the person who claims to be a culinary expert is or not, because you can authenticate their claims quite easily. But how can you authenticate or verify the extent of another person's enlightenment experience. The only possible way to do so is to observe their behaviour and the fruit of their transformation - but you are observing it from the perspective of dualistic mind, so your perceptions will be false! This is precisely the problem I am experiencing. I have had several people who claim to be enlightened offer me distinct paths to enlightenment, but I like you have only my own dualistic senses to guide me along with my intuition and truth sense, and all these arise from an unenlightened consciousness. This is why it is so easy for charlatans to dupe and con so many people out of their money. Just look at how many are claiming to be Qigong Grand Masters (living) and even just Masters...believe me, it is no easier to discern which of them is genuine before attaining some degree of mastery oneself, and that might take a considerable amount of time and could cost a great deal more than you counted on.

 

When I say without limits I am paraphrasing and interpreting the words of Gautama Buddha, but if you read my previous post I go into a little more detail as to why I made that point. But yes, full enlightenment may beyond the conditions of any vehicle - but my point is that it is mere conjecture on our part rather than experiential. 

 

 

 

With respect, I think when you're enlightened (and I sincerely hope you get it) you'll see that the 'glimpses' you've had so far were nothing of the sort, and that the realisation blows anything prior to it to smithereens.

 

 

It's good to obtain a little feedback regarding that post, and I hope you are correct - and I too sincerely wish you every success in your endeavours. 

 

 

We do agree that concentration is but the first step on the path. You'll agree then that if mantra leads (merely) to concentration it doesn't lead to enlightenment.

 

 

 

Yes, but please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that mantra "merely leads to concentration". Read my above posts carefully regarding the vibrational and resonant qualities of both Mantra and Dharanis. I think I made my position clear. 

I am not a Christian, but I do concede that all the religious doctrines of the world hold an element of Universal Truth, however obscure. One of these Truths I believe may be found in the description of the 'Word' which according to the Abrahamic religions is what created all things. According to the Vedas "Om" was precisely the Word which gave life to all things, and Om is known as the MahaMantra for that very reason - the highest Mantra. Mantras have or provide a direct connection with certain universal archetypes which are identified variously as deities, gods, devas or some other description, and these are beings with immense power. When one ingests a hallucinogen or has the sort of experience I was describing in my previous post, one is exposed to these archetypes, which can be absolutely terrifying if one has not developed sufficient mastery of the mind. This is the stuff of the worst bad trip imaginable. But my point is that mantras are powerful in and of themselves, they are not to be limited to a mere mechanism to get from point A to B in consciousness, although in one sense this is also true. Another way to view a mantra might be as a highly condensed form of the consciousness of the being associated with it. The language is also important. Sanskrit and Pall are both very unique languages due to the quality of the sounds. In one sense Sanskrit could be thought of as the mother tongue of all languages. Interestingly one can use the science of Cymatics in order to verify which of the world's existing languages have this resonant quality. It shows that not all languages do. 

 

For those who still doubt the power of vibration, I recommend doing a search on Youtube or elsewhere for Tibetan Singing Bowls. Look for a video which shows the effect of playing such a bowl filled with water.You will be surprised when you see it. There are also larger versions from different parts of Asia such as Japan, which have handles which are rubbed to create a similar effect. The water actually leaps out of the bowl as a result of the effect of the resonant frequency of the bowl upon the water. A search for 'Cymatics' will also provide a broader view of the subject of vibration from a more scientific perspective. 

[DSCB57]

Mantra Is a great technology / tool.

 

This is a Buddhist discussion section so I have remained silent. If it is wished come join me over at the Hindu Discussion and I will describe in the Kriya yoga section how and why Mantra is used it may or may not prove interesting.

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43045-kriya-yoga/page-7

 

In the meantime I am educating myself concerning Buddhism because there is so much that parallels and so much that does not and there is much wisdom and reflection of what is known.

 

Yes, you and I have much in common there, I also practised Kriya Yoga. But I found my Guru to be so pompous and out and out racist (against the British) that I ended up seriously doubting his authority to pass on this tradition with integrity, but he certainly loved the adulation from all the Indian devotees! I am fascinated by the way Gautama seems to have rejected certain key aspects of Vedanta yet incorporated so much of the terminology and hierarchical groups from the different realms - even Brahma. But what is most revealing is that God is never mentioned, in the Vedic sense of the Absolute Parabrahman or whatever. Even the mantras and dharanis are in many ways similar, and there can be no doubt of Gautama having previously been a devotee before leaving his father's kingdom. So we need to ask ourselves how it was that none of the traditions whose practices he perfected led him to the goal he sought? For example reading the writings of Yogananda, Kriya Kundalini Yoga could be easily seen as leading to paranirvana, yet obviously this was not the case for Gautama. So was his practice at fault? Or was the practice as he said only capable of leading to partial enlightenment? There is little mention of the level of attainment which Gautama had already reached through his years of ascetic practice in the company of the Jain ascetics who were eventually to become his first disciples, but I would conjecture that he had already reached an extraordinary level of cultivation in order to continue to survive through that gruelling practice. 

[Who.am.i]

I forgot to mention that in the end the mantra has to fall away for liberation according to some sources. As Ramana Maharshi said you use one thought to destroy all other thouhts and in the end that one thought will be consumed resulting in liberation

Edited February 2, 2017 by Who.am.i

[DSCB57]

No practice per se will lead to Enlightenment - yet many practices can lead to Enlightenment.

 

The question asked in the original post has no answer that will be accepted by the asker.

 

 

That is your assumption, but not necessarily true. You see I am capable of changing and growing through the quality of some of the answers I receive, and my perception therefore shifts accordingly. I may be ignorant but I am asking questions in order not to remain in ignorance. 

 

This is not a linear progression.

 

At any point a practice may lead to the shift of Awakening and Enlightening - but it may in fact be washing the dishes.

 

 

Absolutely  

 

Retraction from the illusion rarely happens slowly in the sense that "you barely see that it is happening". And sometimes one can be fairly misled by siddhis and other abilities that one acquires - thinking "this is the road to Enlightenment". Healing abilities, clairvoyance of all types and astral travel are some of the first and most basic abilities and they will be seen as monumental - which they are and then again they are siddhis and quite normal common new abilities.

 

 

I strongly suspect that many are hoodwinked into believing that others have experienced a profound complete awakening when in fact as you say, they have merely taken the abilities conferred by the attainment of siddhis or other such relatively minor attainments as a measure of their spiritual attainment. I have never been to India, but we all know that there Gurus and fakirs are to be found on every street corner. Fakirs are no more than an equivalent to our street magicians here in the West. 

 

Dawg awoke not long after I awoke and I remember congratulating him here and listening to the words he chose to use from a lineage he came from - his words regarding Mantra and it never leading to Enlightenment were - I would assume -  to be along the lines of what I said above. And even if he claimed full enlightenment I'm sure he would either laugh at that claim now or we would need to look into his definition. Many consider a full residence in the Awakened shift as full Enlightenment. Some reach Oneness / Unity in the first shift and consider this Enlightenment only to later experience Awakening and come to see an entirely different level presence.

 

 

Thank you - a further verification of the fact that what one may at first be convinced to have been a major shift in consciousness is in retrospect only a single footstep on the path. 

 

The shift from Awakening to Oneness/Unity is much more subtle as the Enlightening presence comes increasingly forth. Awakening is the shift from the "delusion in your subconscious mind" as Dawg has said to quote him - but this wording I perceive as confusing to many. MIND, Higher Mind, Subconscious Mind, Focused Mind - for some this type of wording works, for many I see it is too close for erroneous misunderstandings and it is "old school" meaning that it is wording from the 70s.

Westernized wording that is familiar but carries with it lots of baggage. Not far from using the word God to speak of what I call Divine Natural Essence and which is also called more commonly now Presence or Divine Presence or All Pervading Presence.

 

 

 

Thank you, these are all important considerations. In pretty much any tradition we are at the mercy of our need to interpret concepts and language with words which have no equivalent in our language. I am absolutely sure that without learning Mandarin my understanding of the teachings of any of the Chinese traditions would be entirely dependent upon someone else's translation and interpretation. As you say, these interpretations are then also subject to whatever baggage the translator happens to be carrying with them, from whatever source. Myself I prefer the description of the 'Absolute' or the Creator, but of course these are all names which convey concepts about that which is beyond our ability to grasp or conceive of. This is why enlightenment has to be the only goal worth achieving, because it is the only way to truly experience the Self as it is, beyond the limits of our perception. 

Then we talk along the lines of what will lead to Enlightenment - we have to assume a false premise:

That we are talking about a "new" being that has taken on the role of good and evil and must from then supposedly follow a pristine road to overcome this illusion - and given this false premise we then ask:  "from this state what will lead to Enlightenment".

 

 

Well, I see where you are coming from, but that is not my perspective nor my premise. The way I see it, we are all already perfect Buddhas, but our identification with this dualistic reality will not allow us to perceive it as Truth - as our True Nature. Good and evil don't come into it from that perspective. I am not saying that Karma does not obscure the Truth from us. But the real difficulty is in going beyond the conceptual understanding and actually experiencing non duality. That is a huge step for anyone to take. 

 

 

I have never met such a human being. For some it may be that the Universe has created the perfect timing of a large Burp just after drinking a relatively cheap beer in a slimy joint - for another it may be years of a particular meditation practice and for others it might be in the midst of some horrible event.

There is no "secret sauce" that leads to Enlightenment

The Seeker is not looking for what leads to Enlightenment even if that is what he is convince of and even if the words seem to convey this. In between the lines IN HUGE BLOCK LETTERS stated over and over and over again and always discarded by each and every seeker is that Enlightenment is at hand and only the illusion has carried us away from our natural divine essence / presence.

 

 

Yes, well stated. But despite being aware of the illusory nature of everything it remains a concept of the dualistic mind. Once you have grasped that and awakened to it as an experience which you fully embody (or not, lol) it must be difficult to remember what it was like before that shift in consciousness. Granted, it can just happen, provided the conditions are right, otherwise there needs to be some form of method in order to bring about the right conditions for awakening to come about. That is what this thread is discussing. 

 

 

The secret is not what "leads to Enlightenment" - the "secrets" are what lead out of darkness - the obscurations of our addiction to position - our favorite tensions - the comfort foods of our sleep. And these vary for each individual.

Practice is for US to hear OURSELF. We are the only ones with the anwers - though when ones head is so far up ones ass as to make only the echos audible  -  then assistance is helpful - and all that is needed is one to ask.

 

 

Well in case I didn't make myself clear, that is precisely what my posts are for - I am looking for assistance in finding which methods are able to provide the right conditions for awakening to the reality of existence. I am also asking which of the methods which claim to provide the right conditions actually do so.

[Who.am.i]

https://bodhiactivity.wordpress.com/mani/

 

This site has teachings from many tibetan masters about the use of the mani. Also on that site is a relatively recent story of a blind man attaining full realization from the guru rinpoche mantra.

 

A great book about using the mani mantra as a full path is Heart Treasure of the Enlightened Ones. I highly reccomend it if that is your chosen path.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

That mantra (also spoken as Om Ah Hum Vajra Guru Pema Siddhe Hung) is from Tibetan Buddhist doctrine and it is precisely what I was talking about in another post. You are taking refuge in the Lama as the Guru. This really has nothing to do with authentic Buddha Dharma, and is nowhere near as powerful as the simple 6 fold mantra Om Mani Padme Hum (not Hung as pronounced by Tibetan Buddhists). Not surprising then that all it did was provide you with the sort of experience you describe. But then again if you are happy with lucid dreaming then each to his own.

Lucid dreaming is a separate practice

 

As I said short practice (mantra), less than a week my intention isn't guru worship it is to become a Mahasiddha, it's an aspiration. Similar to young sports person putting images of their favorite athletes on their walls etc, they are working toward that. It's an example of attainment/ excellence. 

 

Each sound has it's own meaning, I will leave others to find the meaning of each if they wish.

 

What have you attained other than putting a psychedelic mushroom in your mouth?

 

As with sports again, intention is the first step, then training/ exercise/ discipline

 

If people have no intention/desire they wouldn't being doing anything, what would there be to chant/ meditate in the first place?

 

What most here want to become?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Sionnach

[Golden Dragon Shining]

[Spotless]

To DSCB57

 

When quoting someone - do it properly.

[DSCB57]

What have you attained other than putting a psychedelic mushroom in your mouth?

 

 

I see no real need to respond to your jibe. If you are interested, then check out my other posts. If that is all you have gleaned, then that is your problem, I am not going to reduce myself to your level. You sound rather pompous and conceited to me. I wish you well. 

 

 

 

 

 

[DSCB57]

To DSCB57

 

When quoting someone - do it properly.

 

Would you mind being more specific? If you are talking about quoting from the Buddha Sutras, unfortunately I am unable to comply at the moment due to technological limitations, other quotes I have made are most likely from memory. But I take your point. Thank you

[Pilgrim]

Yes, you and I have much in common there, I also practised Kriya Yoga. But I found my Guru to be so pompous and out and out racist (against the British) that I ended up seriously doubting his authority to pass on this tradition with integrity, but he certainly loved the adulation from all the Indian devotees! I am fascinated by the way Gautama seems to have rejected certain key aspects of Vedanta yet incorporated so much of the terminology and hierarchical groups from the different realms - even Brahma. But what is most revealing is that God is never mentioned, in the Vedic sense of the Absolute Parabrahman or whatever. Even the mantras and dharanis are in many ways similar, and there can be no doubt of Gautama having previously been a devotee before leaving his father's kingdom. So we need to ask ourselves how it was that none of the traditions whose practices he perfected led him to the goal he sought? For example reading the writings of Yogananda, Kriya Kundalini Yoga could be easily seen as leading to paranirvana, yet obviously this was not the case for Gautama. So was his practice at fault? Or was the practice as he said only capable of leading to partial enlightenment? There is little mention of the level of attainment which Gautama had already reached through his years of ascetic practice in the company of the Jain ascetics who were eventually to become his first disciples, but I would conjecture that he had already reached an extraordinary level of cultivation in order to continue to survive through that gruelling practice. 

Lol not so surprising concerning Kriya Gurus. They do not have a good track record.

 

A big part of the problem with Kriya as it has become known in the world is Yukteswar and all that followed him including Yogananda. There are huge problems with both of these historical figures that have been blown up to mythological proportions.

 

Reading the writings of Yogananda is not a good idea, better off reading a comic book. Anything written by Yogananda has been heavily influenced and edited by others.

 

Kriya is a householder practice not a practice for monastics. Lahiri Mahasaya forbid his students from becoming Monastics, He forbid the creation of groups around Kriya. Lahiri Mahasaya even went so far as to tell his chief apprentice to get rid of his whiskers and orange robe, cut his hair and marry becoming a householder and to raise a family before he would accept him.

 

The monastics are the ones responsible for the world knowing about Kriya, they took it upon themselves to change the way it is practiced and have been on a selling spree for around 100 Years now. Some of the Ashrams built from the proceeds are truly beautiful.

 

That people find it ineffective is a small wonder. Actual Kriya despite all the advertisement really is not a good fit for everyone.

 

Even within the descendants of the Lahiri family there are issues such as certain descendants that were Krishnamurti followers and only use Kriya as an avenue for profit and bitch bitterly about not enough people coming to see them and how wonderful Russia is because so many come and give so much money that they have to file taxes in India.

 

Thankfully there are other sources that held the practice as it was handed down.

 

Does anyone even know what Gautama's practices were? I can assure you they were not Kriya as true Kriya was formulated (not modified) for the householders by Lahiri Mahasaya who came well after Gautama.

 

Concerning Gautama and his lack of reference to God etc... it appears to me he was more of a practical sort that was more concerned with what could be done in the here and now rather than spinning off into realms or relatively little value to discuss due to the very nature of the topics.

 

 

Concerning Gautama's practices I have always found it a clever argument that he found practices unnecessary in the end and developed his system instead.

 

The whole thing falls apart here.

 

Once you take up the practices you are no longer objective, you are no longer at the starting point of one who never has. The one who started out is changed by the practices so the one making the declaration is not the same as when they started views and opinions most certainly have been altered.

 

Practices are tools. That is all.

 

They are necessary.

 

They do have there place.

 

Does one confuse the tools with the completed house?

 

When the house is built the tools are not needed a bulldozer serves no purpose.

 

Before the house is built saying the bulldozer is not needed will not clear the land.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Pilgrim