Mantra and Dharani Samadhi as skilful means to reach enlightenment

[Golden Dragon Shining]

DSCB57 "I see no real need to respond to your jibe. If you are interested, then check out my other posts. If that is all you have gleaned, then that is your problem, I am not going to reduce myself to your level. You sound rather pompous and conceited to me. I wish you well."

---
 

I was just making things clearer for you

I have seen a few of your threads and posts in them, nothing beyond the ordinary/ general discussions here, I see no indication of attainments, the mushroom experience I found interesting. If something is of greater value here it typically generates a number of likes. Your posts so far are no more brilliant than mine

You said yourself the mushroom experience was the most extraordinary of your life, desiring to reach that again?

It is not difficult to share ones experiences. No need to be unpleasant ha, if you haven't had other experiences it's okay

I would say one of my more profound experiences was being infinite space, no plants etc

I just typed "experience of infinite space" to see what this is, apparently a "formless realm samadhi absorption" hm didn't know http://www.meditationexpert.com/meditation-techniques/m_yoga_meditation_technique_cultivating_samadhi_of_infinite_space.html

How good am I haha

Lucid dreaming can be really fun though, who doesn't like to fly? You've experienced better of your own will? as you indicate?

Yes I am proud and grandiose

This is one sharp fox Thank you








 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Sionnach

[DSCB57]

I can appreciate the power of vibrations and I do indeed agree with your post.

 

The question I pose to you is this:

does a silent mantra still work via vibration?

 

I answered this later on in the thread, but I am not sure you will find it. My answer is yes, of course. Thoughts engender vibration, they produce certain frequencies, don't they, which can be scanned and analysed? In fact there is obviously a direct correspondence between thoughts and their effect upon the body. When tension is produced through the mind, we feel it in the scalp, then it continues to accumulate until eventually it causes significant pain somewhere around the skull, unless we do something to address that tension. It then moves down to the neck muscles and enters the shoulders, eventually spreading everywhere. 

Also, you can hear your thoughts, and you can also hear other sounds mentally. If you think of a Mantra and you can imagine how it should sound, you should be able to also hear it mentally. Once you have practised a Mantra out loud, you will eventually hear it in your mind - that is one Samadhi method - the ability to continue to hear a given Mantra repeating continuously in your mind day and night. I consider it a minor achievement if not an actual attainment to reach the stage of simultaneously being able to mentally perform multitasking whilst practising this type of Samadhi. An example is try reading something whilst maintaining a fairly long Mantra constantly in mind. Or try practising Qigong, being aware of your entire body and all the sensations, and still maintain the Mantra going constantly. This is especially difficult when trying to perform a set of moving Qigong exercises that you have not yet fully committed to memory. Or try having a conversation and maintaining the Mantra constantly repeating - either in person or on the telephone. Believe me it is not easy, and perhaps what I find most difficult is raising the volume of the mental voice so that it is loud enough to be heard over and above the other noises around you and even within the body itself.

Perhaps the easiest is when this involves engaging in something passive such as watching a video, because one need not be actively involved in the action of simply listening and viewing - but in this example you would be accomplishing at least three tasks simultaneously - a possible 4th task being that of also having a separate thought process regarding the video your are watching, which believe it or not I have actually experienced. 

I apologise if I went rather off the subject and got a little carried away. I hope I answered your question.

[DSCB57]

DSCB57 "I see no real need to respond to your jibe. If you are interested, then check out my other posts. If that is all you have gleaned, then that is your problem, I am not going to reduce myself to your level. You sound rather pompous and conceited to me. I wish you well."

 

---

 

I was just making things clearer for you

 

I have seen a few of your threads and posts in them, nothing beyond the ordinary/ general discussions here, I see no indication of attainments, the mushroom experience I found interesting. If something is of greater value here it typically generates a number of likes. Your posts so far are no more brilliant than mine

 

You said yourself the mushroom experience was the most extraordinary of your life, desiring to reach that again?

 

It is not difficult to share ones experiences. No need to be unpleasant ha, if you haven't had other experiences it's okay

 

I would say one of my more profound experiences was being infinite space, no plants etc

 

I just typed "experience of infinite space" to see what this is, apparently a "formless realm samadhi absorption" hm didn't know http://www.meditationexpert.com/meditation-techniques/m_yoga_meditation_technique_cultivating_samadhi_of_infinite_space.html

 

How good am I haha

 

Lucid dreaming can be really fun though, who doesn't like to fly? You've experienced better of your own will? as you indicate?

 

Yes I am proud and grandiose

 

This is one sharp fox Thank you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You see, I simply was unable to see how your post contributed to my question. You need to ask in what way your own experience is relevant to the question I opened the thread to discuss, whereas you have flippantly sidetracked the issue in order to talk about yourself. What I would say is that if you really want to talk about your own experiences then please don't hijack this thread in order to do so. Think about starting your own thread please. This is what the moderator should have already told you, but since they have not, I have decided to step in order to avoid this thread being steered off course.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Did you not ask for people's experiences and not opinions? somewhere

I shared my mantra experience, where this all started and expanded on that after your misunderstanding/assumptions.

How does one share their experience without speaking of themselves?

You seem to know it all, why ask the question to begin with.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Sionnach

[SeekerOfHealing]

There is nobody is history who attained enlightenment thru mantra but there are plenty of histories that it's create great merit and can put on the path for enlightenment (nibbana).

 

Reality vs beliefs and opinions must always be checked very clearly if we do not want end up confused whole life.

[laughingblade]

Many tibetan masters have stated that the mani mantra is a complete path all by itself.

 

It should be used along with bodhicitta

 

You should also see everything as manifestations of deity, mantra, and wisdom.

 

 

Que?

 

I'm reminded of Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition sketch. All you need is the element of surprise, and then it will be a complete path all by itself.

[laughingblade]

Yes, but please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that mantra "merely leads to concentration". Read my above posts carefully regarding the vibrational and resonant qualities of both Mantra and Dharanis. I think I made my position clear. 

I am not a Christian, but I do concede that all the religious doctrines of the world hold an element of Universal Truth, however obscure. One of these Truths I believe may be found in the description of the 'Word' which according to the Abrahamic religions is what created all things. According to the Vedas "Om" was precisely the Word which gave life to all things, and Om is known as the MahaMantra for that very reason - the highest Mantra. Mantras have or provide a direct connection with certain universal archetypes which are identified variously as deities, gods, devas or some other description, and these are beings with immense power. When one ingests a hallucinogen or has the sort of experience I was describing in my previous post, one is exposed to these archetypes, which can be absolutely terrifying if one has not developed sufficient mastery of the mind. This is the stuff of the worst bad trip imaginable. But my point is that mantras are powerful in and of themselves, they are not to be limited to a mere mechanism to get from point A to B in consciousness, although in one sense this is also true. Another way to view a mantra might be as a highly condensed form of the consciousness of the being associated with it. The language is also important. Sanskrit and Pall are both very unique languages due to the quality of the sounds. In one sense Sanskrit could be thought of as the mother tongue of all languages. Interestingly one can use the science of Cymatics in order to verify which of the world's existing languages have this resonant quality. It shows that not all languages do. 

 

For those who still doubt the power of vibration, I recommend doing a search on Youtube or elsewhere for Tibetan Singing Bowls. Look for a video which shows the effect of playing such a bowl filled with water.You will be surprised when you see it. There are also larger versions from different parts of Asia such as Japan, which have handles which are rubbed to create a similar effect. The water actually leaps out of the bowl as a result of the effect of the resonant frequency of the bowl upon the water. A search for 'Cymatics' will also provide a broader view of the subject of vibration from a more scientific perspective. 

 

David I think you need to take to your cushion mate.

[DSCB57]

Did you not ask for people's experiences and not opinions? somewhere

 

I shared my mantra experience, where this all started and expanded on that after your misunderstanding/assumptions.

 

How does one share their experience without speaking of themselves?

 

You seem to know it all, why ask the question to begin with.

 

Since you still don't get it, let me quote your contribution:

 

 

 

OM AH HUM BENZA GURU PEMA SIDDHI HUM

 

I would say 108 x 2-3 the mind becomes still, once experiencing myself somewhat removed watching the space inside me spinning around? I recall asking here what that was, none seemed to know *shrugs*

 

Also saying this mantra combined with candle gazing, after 2 nights a lucid dream

 

Oct 02 2015 - 15 minutes fire gazing with Padmasambhava Mantra playing in background + afternoon sun-gazing. 

 

Dream:@ high-school rugby practice, later going to the locker room, I opened my locker and it was full of different pictures of foxes I turned around and a teacher/ presence appeared (not from the school) wearing a type of robe, brief discussion I recall 'you should meditate for 2 hours a day' and turned around and seemed to glide away, 2 others standing each side of the teacher... thinking/feeling maybe a fox deity, unsure.

 

~~~

 

My practice has to become more serious ha   ... I start and get sidetracked

 

OK, now let's imagine the scenario of someone visiting this thread in order to examine the question I raised. Please be honest with yourself at least, and ask yourself how relevant your post is to that person. Aside from the fact that it might possibly make someone laugh, is this really going to help them reach an understanding of whether or not the practice of Mantra and Dharani Samadhi is a skillful means to reach enlightenment? I would be embarrassed to have posted something as frivolous as that in answer to such a meaningful question, and I would either ask to have it removed or edit it in some way to reflect what I had learned from other people's reactions to that, rather than continue to find ways to defend my argument. Your attitude shows to what degree you are attached to your self importance - how can you possibly grow or learn from the opportunity these discussions afford us? You are taking my comments as a personal affront. I am simply defending the ability of this thread to act as a repository for valid information on the subject. 

Imagine that others start to follow suit and having perhaps listened to a guided meditation at some point in their life which made use of a mantra, they now decide that they feel qualified to contribute their experience to this thread. In no time people would have to wade through pages of trivial information and most probably give up before finding anything worth reading. This is what I want to avoid. 

 

I understand that Gautama Buddha had a highly developed sense of humour, and that humour plays a vital part in the expression of the awakened mind, but it has a time and place, and this does not seem the appropriate time and place for it, which is why I made the observation that your attitude was flippant. As I said, there is no-one saying you don't have the right to express yourself, but if you want to express something that does not directly contribute to a specific thread in a meaningful and constructive helpful way, then why not start a new topic or thread which will then attract other like minded people? Then you can happily discuss your experiences with others who share an interest in them. This seems a very reasonable request to me, and would be a respectful gesture on your part toward those who have genuinely come here in order to seek information on this subject. 

[Who.am.i]

Que?

 

I'm reminded of Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition sketch. All you need is the element of surprise, and then it will be a complete path all by itself.

Oops, haha, you caught me.

 

It can be used as a main ingredient in a path when used in conjunction with the other mentioned ingredients and watching from where it rises and falls. It is possible to feel the energy of the mani vibrating in everything and everywhere with or without the mental repetition. I agree that still doesn't guarantee complete awakening, but it can purify the karmic obscurations to realizing the natural state which is always there but covered over by the karmic hindrances.

 

Drubwang Konchok Norbu Rinpoche on the mani as a complete path:

https://bodhiactivity.wordpress.com/2013/12/28/benefits-of-the-mani-mantra/

 

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche states in the book Heart Treasure of the Enlightened Ones

"If you take the maṇi as your refuge both in happiness and in sorrow, Chenrezi will always be with you, you will feel more and more devotion without any effort, and all by itself the realization of the Mahāyāna path will arise in your being."

 

With practice I am experiencing the truth of these words.I have complete faith that all the elements necessary for complete enlightenment will come forth as needed and if not completed in this life, I will be able to complete it in Sukhavati, the pureland of Amitabha Buddha.

 

You can have whatever opinions you want about the practice, but it will not deter me in the pursuit of this path. I wish you great success in your chosen path. May you quickly attain the fruit of your chosen path.

 

Om Mani Padme Hum my friend

Edited February 5, 2017 by Who.am.i

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Only thing frivolous is your response so far

"Is anyone here following this method, and would you be willing to discuss it?"

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Sionnach

[Sudhamma]

@Spotless, your thread #16: the original post did mention the words, 'skillful means'. What is really meant by these two words? Are mantras, a product of tantric practices and dharanis, the extended version of mantras commonly used by Mahayana Buddhists, 'skillful means' used by The Buddha? In his 40 years of ministry, he did come across communities and people with different aspirations, different intellect, different perceptions of the world and with prejudices. just like people of today. His teachings are individualized to cater to different people or communities. Thus, therein lies his ability to preach to different people and communities across the sub-continent. With that, the meaning of the term, expedient or skillful means and shows the depth of wisdom and knowledge of The Sammasambuddha. And that's why Sakyamuni is the Sammasambuddha. I shall mention 2 well-known parables, The Poison Arrow and The Raft; and also 1 most important sutta, The Turning of the (Dhamma) Wheel, none of them with any mantras nor dharanis. Nor The Ratana Sutta used twice effectively to end disease during the Buddha's time and drought in Sri Lanka has any mantras nor was the sutta classed as a dharani. Why is that so? The reason is very obvious. 

 

The reason why incessant chanting of suttas, the Teachings of the Buddha, or dharanis and mantras would not lead to Enlightenment is also very obvious, once the wayfarer understands what is this Enlightenment is about. There is nothing to argue about. 

 

There are the Three Baskets (within the Theravaden tradition) recorded since the Great Passing, Parinibbanna to ensure the correctness and trueness of the Teachings, perhaps with minor mistranslations, but that is what Humanity has unless we have a time-machine to go back in time to the days of the Buddha to tell you what I Iearnt first-hand from the great teacher. Books are what we have. The Buddha was asked how to recognise whether a teaching was his after his passing. And his answer remains to be the guide for most of us (we call ourselves Buddhists) to determine what we hear or read conforms to his teaching, and discard those that do not conform. I've answered the 4 questions that David asked in accordance to the Theravaden tradition. However, by all means seek your version of enlightenment through solely mantras and dharanis if you are happy and please with them, but I see that sort of path to enlightenment as ignorance.

[Bindi]

D: “Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables (mantras) picked up casually?

 

M.: “No. He must be competent and initiated in such mantras.” Ramana Maharshi illustrated this by the following story: A King visited his Premier in his residence. There he was told that the Premier was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables. The King waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the words were. The Premier said that it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The King desired to be initiated by the Premier. But the Premier confessed his inability to initiate him. Therefore the King learned it from someone else, and meeting the Minister later he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was right. The Minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper for him to say it. When pressed for an explanation, the Minister called to a page close by and ordered him to take hold of the King. The order was not obeyed. The order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The King flew into a rage and ordered the same man to hold the Minister, and it was immediately done. The Minister laughed and said that the incident was the explanation required by the King. “How?” asked the King. The Minister replied, “The order was the same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When I ordered, the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate effect. Similarly with mantras.”

 

http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/teachings/%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%93/

Edited February 7, 2017 by Bindi

[rex]

D: “Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables (mantras) picked up casually?

 

M.:  ... “The order was the same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When I ordered, the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate effect. Similarly with mantras.”

 

http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/teachings/%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%93/

 

Mantras given publicly in the Sutras don't require formal transmission, though those not given out publicly, typically those from the vajrayana, do. I've been taught it's good to get transmission for the mantras found in Sutra too.

[Pilgrim]

D: “Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables (mantras) picked up casually?

 

M.: “No. He must be competent and initiated in such mantras.” Ramana Maharshi illustrated this by the following story: A King visited his Premier in his residence. There he was told that the Premier was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables. The King waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the words were. The Premier said that it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The King desired to be initiated by the Premier. But the Premier confessed his inability to initiate him. Therefore the King learned it from someone else, and meeting the Minister later he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was right. The Minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper for him to say it. When pressed for an explanation, the Minister called to a page close by and ordered him to take hold of the King. The order was not obeyed. The order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The King flew into a rage and ordered the same man to hold the Minister, and it was immediately done. The Minister laughed and said that the incident was the explanation required by the King. “How?” asked the King. The Minister replied, “The order was the same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When I ordered, the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate effect. Similarly with mantras.”

 

http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/teachings/%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%93/

Hi Bindi I have read this story before and always enjoyed it. Thank you for sharing it.

 

The story applies here but it does not explain why.

 

If I tell a person chant OM mentally even sing OM for them to the best of my ability so they get the tonality and pronunciation correct. They will only learn the mantra.

 

If by the knowing of having discovered by doing how to make mantra effective I work with a person and discover the key to their comprehension then they will understand also how to make Mantra Effective.

 

Mantra is a science pure and simple, it works because it works and no agency or presumed authority is required to activate some mystical charm.

 

You can practice mantra or Japa forever and get very little result, this is true but it is not because some mystical authority is required to grant you permission or so order that it be done.

 

Just the verbal or mental repetition of Mantra is not enough.

 

One must, MUST    learn how to integrate their mind with their Chi / Prana 

 

One can discover how to do this on their own simply by doing practice. This is an uncertain way though and it is not likely many will.

 

One may be taught specific technologies or techniques of practice where this will come to them.

 

One may be fortunate enough to have a friend that is willing to spend time with them to help them unlock this within themselves.

[Sudhamma]

@Pilgrim, Thank you for your post. From my perspective, mantras. dharanis and pirits must be chanted with purity of heart, sincerity, focus of thought (or intent) plus a moral foundation that comes with commitment to the practice of the Faith. With this, even the Lord's Prayer can be a dharani, not necessarily the verse(s) must be from a particular religion. Whether the mantra is effective or not, depends upon the degree of moral cultivation of the one chanting it and not just the power of thought or mind.

[Pilgrim]

@Pilgrim, Thank you for your post. From my perspective, mantras. dharanis and pirits must be chanted with purity of heart, sincerity, focus of thought (or intent) plus a moral foundation that comes with commitment to the practice of the Faith. With this, even the Lord's Prayer can be a dharani, not necessarily the verse(s) must be from a particular religion. Whether the mantra is effective or not, depends upon the degree of moral cultivation of the one chanting it and not just the power of thought or mind.

 

While I respect your perspective it simply is not correct outside of your tradition. Mantra transcends all traditions.

 

From your perspective it may remain true for yourself within the system of your tradition and there can be no discussion on that because any attempt to do so would be violating the system of belief you cherish and that is not nice to do to someone.

 

Therefore my reply is not in specific regard to demonstrating how you are incorrect within that which works for you.

 

This reply is for those who may may stumble across this thread and be detoured by the subset of preconditions set forth in your reply, for whom it is not a good fit and discourage the use of the tool of Mantra..

 

~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Morality is highly subjective within a given tradition or cultural reference, or religion.  Mantra does not require a moral precept to work.

 

Mantra does not even require any other supporting framework other than it must be blended with Prana. One must, MUST    learn how to integrate their mind with their Chi / Prana. This is universal regardless of tradition or sentiment.

 

Mantra requires no subjective idea or emotional context of morality to operate effectively, although it can help for a while.

 

Mantra does not require purity of heart. If anything it is a tool which will help one develop a more pure heart.

 

Mantra does not require a practice based on faith or a commitment of any kind. Mantra typically comes as a packaged deal with a religion or a tradition of sadhana of some kind.

 

Mantra does not require sincerity. By the very act of making mantra the sincerity is in place already.

 

Mantra does require focus.

 

Everything listed above with the exception of focus is in the category of devotion and strong sentiment or Bhakti which has been used as strong emotional fuel as a source of getting ones ass on the cushion since the beginning of contrived practices.

 

This Bhakti or strong sentiment, even with sincerity can only go so far.

 

Mantra is independent of these things and goes places allows one to enter realms where these things of emotional feeling and sentiment simply do not exist. Where mind itself does not exist, where the witness itself does not exist.

 

If these things of feeling are not let go of then they will tether mantra and mind will not be able to relax its grasp on sentiment nor go beyond which is the point of mantra.

 

The purpose of mantra in the beginning is for global purification of the subtle channels and is to enter the central channel.

 

Entering the central channel is necessary to enter Samadhi.

 

Mantra is universal.

 

Prana is universal but takes on different names in different cultures in different times.

 

When the two universal principals are applied with focus all boundaries of emotion, sentiment and mind are transcended. If not in the beginning then later.

 

One must, MUST    learn how to integrate their mind / Mantra with their Chi / Prana. This is universal regardless of tradition or sentiment.

 

If one will learn how to integrate within their tradition then they will have it all and satisfy all conditions.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Pilgrim

[Sudhamma]

Hi, Piligrim, thank you for the discussion.

[DSCB57]

While I respect your perspective it simply is not correct outside of your tradition. Mantra transcends all traditions.

 

From your perspective it may remain true for yourself within the system of your tradition and there can be no discussion on that because any attempt to do so would be violating the system of belief you cherish and that is not nice to do to someone.

 

Therefore my reply is not in specific regard to demonstrating how you are incorrect within that which works for you.

 

This reply is for those who may may stumble across this thread and be detoured by the subset of preconditions set forth in your reply, for whom it is not a good fit and discourage the use of the tool of Mantra..

 

~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Morality is highly subjective within a given tradition or cultural reference, or religion.  Mantra does not require a moral precept to work.

 

Mantra does not even require any other supporting framework other than it must be blended with Prana. One must, MUST    learn how to integrate their mind with their Chi / Prana. This is universal regardless of tradition or sentiment.

 

Mantra requires no subjective idea or emotional context of morality to operate effectively, although it can help for a while.

 

Mantra does not require purity of heart. If anything it is a tool which will help one develop a more pure heart.

 

Mantra does not require a practice based on faith or a commitment of any kind. Mantra typically comes as a packaged deal with a religion or a tradition of sadhana of some kind.

 

Mantra does not require sincerity. By the very act of making mantra the sincerity is in place already.

 

Mantra does require focus.

 

Everything listed above with the exception of focus is in the category of devotion and strong sentiment or Bhakti which has been used as strong emotional fuel as a source of getting ones ass on the cushion since the beginning of contrived practices.

 

This Bhakti or strong sentiment, even with sincerity can only go so far.

 

Mantra is independent of these things and goes places allows one to enter realms where these things of emotional feeling and sentiment simply do not exist. Where mind itself does not exist, where the witness itself does not exist.

 

If these things of feeling are not let go of then they will tether mantra and mind will not be able to relax its grasp on sentiment nor go beyond which is the point of mantra.

 

The purpose of mantra in the beginning is for global purification of the subtle channels and is to enter the central channel.

 

Entering the central channel is necessary to enter Samadhi.

 

Mantra is universal.

 

Prana is universal but takes on different names in different cultures in different times.

 

When the two universal principals are applied with focus all boundaries of emotion, sentiment and mind are transcended. If not in the beginning then later.

 

One must, MUST    learn how to integrate their mind / Mantra with their Chi / Prana. This is universal regardless of tradition or sentiment.

 

If one will learn how to integrate within their tradition then they will have it all and satisfy all conditions.

 

Hi Pilgrim,

 

May I ask you to explain whether it is possible to use Mantra to actually bring about an inner alchemical process - in Buddhist terms to unite the Nirmanakaya, Sambogakaya and Dharmakaya, or whether it acts only as a catalyst to the actual alchemical process - by opening up all the Chakras and Nadis, along with Pranayama practice (as a Buddhist/Vedic counterpart to the Daoist Neidan practice? If it is true that the only way to real enlightenment must involve this alchemical union in some shape or form, then I would like to understand how Mantra and Dharani Samadhi can achieve the same level of attainment?

Having read this article, I am intrigued by the manner in which each tradition appears to be describing the same process in very different ways:

http://lostsecretofimmortality.tumblr.com/

[Pilgrim]

Hi,

 

Mantra alone is not a reliabel way. It can act as a Catalyst but on it's own, my God that is like pushing a rock up a hill with your nose.

 

When you make Pranyam with Mantra not as a seperate thing and thereby intigrate your mind with it then you are assured to purify the nadis. Attempting to push Prana without purifying the nadis is not wise, it leads to mental emotional and physical difficulties.

 

Can you give me a clear idea of what you personaly think Enlightenment is? After that let us discuss this more.

 

interesting article but they are making it alot more complicated that it is, it is a parallel to what I call Becoming Gender Complete. Keep an eye out for my PPF before long I will be addressing this concept of Gender Complete.

[Jeff]

Hi Pilgrim,

 

May I ask you to explain whether it is possible to use Mantra to actually bring about an inner alchemical process - in Buddhist terms to unite the Nirmanakaya, Sambogakaya and Dharmakaya, or whether it acts only as a catalyst to the actual alchemical process - by opening up all the Chakras and Nadis, along with Pranayama practice (as a Buddhist/Vedic counterpart to the Daoist Neidan practice? If it is true that the only way to real enlightenment must involve this alchemical union in some shape or form, then I would like to understand how Mantra and Dharani Samadhi can achieve the same level of attainment?

Having read this article, I am intrigued by the manner in which each tradition appears to be describing the same process in very different ways:

http://lostsecretofimmortality.tumblr.com/

 

 

I do not mean to intrude in your conversation, but buddhists do not unite the Nirmankaya, Sambkogakaya and Dharamkayas. The  kayas are all the same body of buddha, just sort viewed as separate by those who can perceive them.  Additionally, it is not possible to realize the kayas by using a mantra, as being a buddha is "beyond mind", while a mantra is of mind.

[Pilgrim]

I do not mean to intrude in your conversation, but buddhists do not unite the Nirmankaya, Sambkogakaya and Dharamkayas. The  kayas are all the same body of buddha, just sort viewed as separate by those who can perceive them.  Additionally, it is not possible to realize the kayas by using a mantra, as being a buddha is "beyond mind", while a mantra is of mind.

Thanks for joining the conversation Jeff.

 

Absolutely correct Mantra is limited to mind.

 

Prana is limited to bodies Physical and Astral.

 

Once Astral Channels are open via the blending of Prana and Mantra, or Bodies and Mind then one has great bliss and then it is like a step up transformer and one goes beyond Mantra Mind , Prana life force and Bliss.

[rex]

Some very interesting perspectives on mantra - thanks everyone. Since the terms Nirmanakaya, Sambogakaya and Dharmakaya have arisen, here is a perspective on the Secret Mantra Vehicle and the provenance of mantras within this approach:

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Secret_mantra

 

 

[s1va]

None of these "processes" lead to Enlightenment - they help to nudge you into moving from karma (your Chinese finger puzzle) to no longer playing that illusion. You have never had karmic debt and you will never receive karma points. You do have various types of glue holding you to your illusion (karma) and certain actions will help to loosen that glue and certain actions will increase the glues strength. The glues (grasping) are your positions and beliefs.

 

Coincidentally,  I was helping kids do some craftwork for school, and got the glue all over my hand.   I wanted to get rid of it. restlessly.  It was stubborn, I got restless in my trying, obsessively applying different kind of soap, washing to get rid of it immediately.   No way, some parts came off, but it won't budge easily.  My struggle to get rid of the glue, was getting in my way of doing other stuff.  So, I gave up the struggle to get rid of it right away.  When I washed the hand several times during the day, it started going away slowly.   After 4 days, as I am typing this post, there are still traces on it my hand.  But, I am not so bothered now.  I know they will be gone and my nails and finger (skin) underneath are just fine -- I can still feel them under the glue.  

 

Similarly, somehow I got this karma-glue all over me.  May be, there are ways to get rid of this stubborn glue right away.  I don't know them.  The soaps and other methods of washing in the hot water did help in the process with the glue on hand.  Mantra seems to be a good soap at times to wash off the glue of karma.  I may have allergic skin to certain soaps.  Trying which soap or method works well is helpful, as long as I don't get obsessive about the soap.  Depending on how much glue I have, and how stubborn it is, I might need to keep at it.  I realize that the soap is just a means, once the glue is gone, there may be no use for this soap.

Edited April 30, 2017 by kāvēri

[Spotless]

It is interesting - the idea that Mantra is of the mind.

 

From a limited perspective this is partially correct but it is not a truth.

 

Mantra can be far beyond mind.

 

It has never been "of mind" in my practice once established.

 

More the sounds of the Logos

Edited May 1, 2017 by Spotless