Killing the Ego

[Pilgrim]

Quoted from the original dialog quoted by Dwai above from Papaji:

 

"Spontaneous, without involvement in the thought process.

No thought process will be there--only direct sponta¬neous activity without thinking.

First I think and then I act.

This process will be gone and direct activity will be there according to circumstances.

In this process even the memory won't be there either.

You don't need memory.

Memory is ego itself."

 

This is the hairy stuff  - this is in the fringes - it is the pith in this - hard to hear and see and immediately skipped over - but it is the diamond - the other stuff is something we think we understand - and this looks like a misprint but it is not -it is literal. This is what an Awakened teacher says - this is what is not heard.

This is the wisdom of a frogs cut off leg responding to electrodes.

[dwai]

So far all I have met were frauds.

The ones I have met are mostly genuine. My mother's uncle is one such. At close to 100 he still lives on his own, cooks his own meals and does his practices. He doesn't seek students, they find him and learn from him. Edited February 4, 2017 by dwai

[Jeff]

Quoted from the original dialog quoted by Dwai above from Papaji:

 

"Spontaneous, without involvement in the thought process.

No thought process will be there--only direct sponta¬neous activity without thinking.

First I think and then I act.

This process will be gone and direct activity will be there according to circumstances.

In this process even the memory won't be there either.

You don't need memory.

Memory is ego itself."

 

This is the hairy stuff  - this is in the fringes - it is the pith in this - hard to hear and see and immediately skipped over - but it is the diamond - the other stuff is something we think we understand - and this looks like a misprint but it is not -it is literal. This is what an Awakened teacher says - this is what is not heard.

This is not the case (with memory gone) in many "non Hindu" traditions. No memory is more just seen as an early state (first of three). In other traditions, it is seen as more "seeing through" the attachment of memories, not that they disappear. From the Lankavatara sutra...

 

....

The Blessed One replied: There are three kinds of such transcendental bodies: First, there is one in which the Bodhisattva attains enjoyment of the Samadhis and Samapattis. Second, there is the one which is assumed by the Tathagatas according to the class of beings to be sustained, and which achieves and perfects spontaneously with no attachment and no effort. Third, there is the one in which the Tathagatas receive their intuition of Dharmakaya.

 

The transcendental personality that enters into the enjoyment of the Samadhis comes with the third, fourth and fifth stages as the mentations of the mind-system become quieted and waves of consciouness are no more stirred on the face of Universal Mind. In this state, the conscious-mind is still aware, in a measure, of the bliss being experienced by this cessation of the mind's activities.

 

The second kind of transcendental personality is the kind assumed by Bodhisattvas and Tathagatas as bodies of transformation by which they demostrate their original vows in the work of achieving and perfecting; it comes with the eighth stage of Bodhisattvahood. When the Bodhisattva has a thorough-going penetration into the maya-like nature of things and understands the dharma of imagelessness, he will experience the "turning-about" in his deepest consciousness and will become able to experience the higher Samadhis even to the highest. By entering into these exalted Samadhis he attains a personality that transcends the conscious-mind, by reason of which he obtains supernatural powers of self-mastery and activities because of which he is able to move as he wishes, as quickly as a dream changes as quickly as an image changes in a mirror. This transcendental body is not a product of the elements and yet there is something in it that is analogous to what is so produced; it is furnished with all the differences appertaining to the world of form but without their limitations; possessed of this "mind-vision-body" he is able to be present in all the assemblages in all the Buddha-lands. Just as his thoughts move instantly and without hindrance over walls and rivers and trees and mountains, and just as in memory he recalls and visits the scenes of his past experiences, so, while his mind keeps fuctioning in the body, his thoughts may be a hundred thousand yojanas away. In the same fashion the trasncendental personality that experiences the Samadhi Vajravimbopama will be endowed with supernatural powers and psychic faculties and self-mastery by reason of which he will be able to follow the noble paths that lead to the assemblages of the Buddhas, moving about as freely as he may wish. But his wishes will no longer be self-centered nor tainted by discrimination and attachment, for this transcendental personality is not his old body, but is the transcendental embodiment of his original vows of self-yielding in order to bring all beings to maturity.

 

The third kind of transcendental personality is so ineffable that it is able to attain intuitions of the Dharmakaya, that is, it attains intuitions of the boundless and inscrutable cognition of Universal Mind. As Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas attain the highest of the stages and become conversant with all the treasures to be realised in Noble Wisdom, they will attain this inconceivable transformation-body which is the true nature of all the Tathagatas past, present and future, and will participate in the blissful peace which pervades the Dharma of all the Buddhas.

[3bob]

There is a golden lion from the tribe of Judah that is very ferocious when it comes to protecting the innocent and weak. 

 

And there is a blinding white light super-nova that is very ferocious when it shines explosively through darkness...and also kills death. 

[Perceiver]

The ego should not be killed. It should be understood.

 

But, the first post kind of said that..

[3bob]

the ego dies when it no longer has energy going to it for spinning out its plans or for keeping up its devices, and thus is no longer king rat...(even if the rat is well dressed and intelligent)

[Marblehead]

I actually agree with you here 3bob.  I know the experience you spoke of.  (I still have ego but it does not rule my life.)

[Stosh]

Can you smell pancakes when your ego is turned off?

[Marblehead]

Can you smell pancakes when your ego is turned off?

 

Yes.  Nothing in reality changes when we turn off our ego.  But we will likely view many of the things differently than we did with our ego turned on.

[Stosh]

Yes.  Nothing in reality changes when we turn off our ego.  But we will likely view many of the things differently than we did with our ego turned on.

How then do I know if my ego is engaged moment to moment , or not? When I wake up , I dont review my name, I just go through a routine.

[Marblehead]

How then do I know if my ego is engaged moment to moment , or not? When I wake up , I dont review my name, I just go through a routine.

 

How the hell would I know?  I'm just a retired military man.

 

Damn good question though.

 

Perhaps the best time to review our ego is when we are interacting with others.  (Are we being honest or presenting a picture we want others to see?)

[Stosh]

What if I am honestly presenting the picture I want them to see? :-)

But frankly, Im trying to envision whats going on , are you supposed to sit and imagine youre water ? and at some point you get it so that youre not aware of your identity ? if thats it, I dont get the point of the exercise, because one often isnt thinking about pretensions. Im thinking the idea of yourself as being a mental objectreally only happens periodically. One keeps refreshing and updating a residual identity, or so it seems to me. Ive been told that true emotions are really fleeting momentary attitudes lasting less than a minute! You just replay certain messages or do a sensation check of your body to tell you which emotion has been stirred. Taoists have said that all one really has to do, is let the emotions settle and peace can prevail. This seems accurate to me, so .. I dont get the point or mthodology of killing ones ego being described. Why do ,,, whatever this killing thing is ? to be forever happy ? Someone with a dead ego is what? more effective at going through the motions of living without appreciating anything? Im really asking, and yall appear to be willing to explain,, so , wherefore do what exactly ?

Edited February 6, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Well, you know that I am not in favor of the concept of killing the ego.  (I can see where it would be useful for some folks though.)

 

My only argument is that our ego should reflect reality.  False ego will always cause us problems.  And, of course, we must know our capabilities and capacities before we can know if our ego does reflect reality.

 

 

Emotions is a different concept but I have always said that I love my emotions.  We don't need to kill them either.  However, we should not allow them to have too much control of our life.

[dwai]

How then do I know if my ego is engaged moment to moment , or not? When I wake up , I dont review my name, I just go through a routine.

 

I experienced the receding of the mind/ego into the heart recently. It was very distinct in that I was completely aware as I was falling asleep. First the body went to sleep and then the mind flowed back into the heart. If I recollect the condition, there was just awareness left, no personification.

Edited February 6, 2017 by dwai

[Stosh]

I experienced the receding of the mind/ego into the heart recently. It was very distinct in that I was completely aware as I was falling asleep. First the body went to sleep and then the mind flowed back into the heart. If I recollect the condition, there was just awareness left, no personification.

Cool, Should I take it that , you still are daily aware of your ego as an existent phenomena ? which would mean that it isnt really  'dead' per se' , and ,What difference , do you feel,  this event has had in your regular life ?

[dwai]

Cool, Should I take it that , you still are daily aware of your ego as an existent phenomena ? which would mean that it isnt really 'dead' per se' , and ,What difference , do you feel, this event has had in your regular life ?

Haha no for me the ego is not "dead".

 

For the most part, my practice is to let the ego just rest in the Witness Consciousness..not interfering with or trying to interrupt the goings on. It's a tricky thing...as there are fluctuations when the ego/mind go off into flights of fancy. But then always there seems to be the awareness that is witnessing these flights (except in certain scenarios where there is temporary loss of that awareness).

 

But the eventual result of this type of practice is going to be the continuing awareness (even through deep sleep)...that's my objective at this point...to be aware all the time.

 

Adding answer to the question about impact on my life -

 

The awareness of phenomenal nature of the mind/ego makes it easier to address issues that would have sent me into doldrums of despair (work related issues, relationship issues and other stresses of the samsarik life).

 

So there are emotions still but the recovery time is quicker. I am able to "let go" more quickly and then the suffering is reduced or gone (directly proportional to how much I am able to let go).

 

I don't experience any supernatural abilities via this practice ... just makes living an easier process imho, as we can avoid conflicts and become naturally averse to taking positions.

 

This also helps in sensing energies etc as being this way is naturally "empty", so perturbations of energy in the phenomenal world become more apparent (still learning this in the context of taijiquan).

 

I think someone like spotless might be a better candidate to share their thoughts in far greater detail.

Edited February 6, 2017 by dwai

[neti neti]

The death of ego isn't exactly cessation. Its more like, the ego is put in its proper place as presenter/experiencer of your experience. I would say, attenuation, is a more accurate term.

 

Think of ego as the projector which allows that particular facet of consciousness to shine through onto the screen. When the ego clutter is swept away, or, the dust is cleared from the lens, then Self, through the ego, is able to shine through and experience reality as it truly is.

 

What dies is any erroneously conceived sense of independence and/or control over one's experience. What was once believed to be the director, is revealed to just be the projector. All false identity melts away, the veil is removed, and the masks fall off.

 

So, there's no need to kill one's ego... poor little ego.

 

I love my ego, it allows me to experience.

[3bob]

ego is a thing of programs and various devices, Spirit is not a thing nor programs of various devices and when it fully takes it True place ego is no longer needed, nor is it fed anymore nor can it steal anymore, thus it unwinds and is no more. 

 

(except or apparently for a remnant wisp or facsimile of it used for worldly interaction - which only a Sat Guru or Sage type being would know for sure)

Edited February 7, 2017 by 3bob

[Spotless]

Quoted from the original dialog quoted by Dwai above from Papaji:

 

"Spontaneous, without involvement in the thought process.

No thought process will be there--only direct sponta¬neous activity without thinking.

First I think and then I act.

This process will be gone and direct activity will be there according to circumstances.

In this process even the memory won't be there either.

You don't need memory.

Memory is ego itself."

 

This is the hairy stuff - this is in the fringes - it is the pith in this - hard to hear and see and immediately skipped over - but it is the diamond - the other stuff is something we think we understand - and this looks like a misprint but it is not -it is literal. This is what an Awakened teacher says - this is what is not heard.

 

 

This is not the case (with memory gone) in many "non Hindu" traditions. No memory is more just seen as an early state (first of three). In other traditions, it is seen as more "seeing through" the attachment of memories, not that they disappear. From the Lankavatara sutra...

....

The Blessed One replied: There are three kinds of such transcendental bodies: First, there is one in which the Bodhisattva attains enjoyment of the Samadhis and Samapattis. Second, there is the one which is assumed by the Tathagatas according to the class of beings to be sustained, and which achieves and perfects spontaneously with no attachment and no effort. Third, there is the one in which the Tathagatas receive their intuition of Dharmakaya.

The transcendental personality that enters into the enjoyment of the Samadhis comes with the third, fourth and fifth stages as the mentations of the mind-system become quieted and waves of consciouness are no more stirred on the face of Universal Mind. In this state, the conscious-mind is still aware, in a measure, of the bliss being experienced by this cessation of the mind's activities.

The second kind of transcendental personality is the kind assumed by Bodhisattvas and Tathagatas as bodies of transformation by which they demostrate their original vows in the work of achieving and perfecting; it comes with the eighth stage of Bodhisattvahood. When the Bodhisattva has a thorough-going penetration into the maya-like nature of things and understands the dharma of imagelessness, he will experience the "turning-about" in his deepest consciousness and will become able to experience the higher Samadhis even to the highest. By entering into these exalted Samadhis he attains a personality that transcends the conscious-mind, by reason of which he obtains supernatural powers of self-mastery and activities because of which he is able to move as he wishes, as quickly as a dream changes as quickly as an image changes in a mirror. This transcendental body is not a product of the elements and yet there is something in it that is analogous to what is so produced; it is furnished with all the differences appertaining to the world of form but without their limitations; possessed of this "mind-vision-body" he is able to be present in all the assemblages in all the Buddha-lands. Just as his thoughts move instantly and without hindrance over walls and rivers and trees and mountains, and just as in memory he recalls and visits the scenes of his past experiences, so, while his mind keeps fuctioning in the body, his thoughts may be a hundred thousand yojanas away. In the same fashion the trasncendental personality that experiences the Samadhi Vajravimbopama will be endowed with supernatural powers and psychic faculties and self-mastery by reason of which he will be able to follow the noble paths that lead to the assemblages of the Buddhas, moving about as freely as he may wish. But his wishes will no longer be self-centered nor tainted by discrimination and attachment, for this transcendental personality is not his old body, but is the transcendental embodiment of his original vows of self-yielding in order to bring all beings to maturity.

The third kind of transcendental personality is so ineffable that it is able to attain intuitions of the Dharmakaya, that is, it attains intuitions of the boundless and inscrutable cognition of Universal Mind. As Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas attain the highest of the stages and become conversant with all the treasures to be realised in Noble Wisdom, they will attain this inconceivable transformation-body which is the true nature of all the Tathagatas past, present and future, and will participate in the blissful peace which pervades the Dharma of all the Buddhas.

I was not talking from conceptual - nor was Papaji

 

Look deeper into this - it is not easily explained - Pilgrim thought it was a a frogs legs cut off and being stimulated with electrodes.

Very far from what is being said here.

It is a minor thing from the conceptual view - but it is a very fine pointer and very very hard to hear.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Spotless

[cold]

I find the things  that are very hard to hear are of great importance... the harder to hear the greater the importance.

 

Diamonds are formed under pressure.

 

Growth is painful.

Recall puberty? (I know some of us are getting a bit long in the tooth, but try.)

But the reward on the other side can should make the struggle worthwhile

[Jeff]

Quoted from the original dialog quoted by Dwai above from Papaji:

 

"Spontaneous, without involvement in the thought process.

No thought process will be there--only direct sponta¬neous activity without thinking.

First I think and then I act.

This process will be gone and direct activity will be there according to circumstances.

In this process even the memory won't be there either.

You don't need memory.

Memory is ego itself."

 

This is the hairy stuff - this is in the fringes - it is the pith in this - hard to hear and see and immediately skipped over - but it is the diamond - the other stuff is something we think we understand - and this looks like a misprint but it is not -it is literal. This is what an Awakened teacher says - this is what is not heard.

 

 

I was not talking from conceptual - nor was Papaji

 

Look deeper into this - it is not easily explained - Pilgrim thought it was a a frogs legs cut off and being stimulated with electrodes.

Very far from what is being said here.

It is a minor thing from the conceptual view - but it is a very fine pointer and very very hard to hear.

 

 

I was not talking conceptual either.  Memory does not cease as the buddhist sutra states, that is just a "stage". And, the reason that it feels like memory is gone is easily explained if you would like to discuss the topic.

[Spotless]

I was not talking conceptual either.  Memory does not cease as the buddhist sutra states, that is just a "stage". And, the reason that it feels like memory is gone is easily explained if you would like to discuss the topic.

You are speaking conceptually - you have not arrived at what he is pointing to and do not understand this. He is speaking of the latter stages that you have quoted/paraphrased - IN both the second and 3rd stage. In the Intuitive "stage" (not to be confused with the clairvoyant siddhis).

 

From your response:

"Second, there is the one which is assumed by the Tathagatas according to the class of beings to be sustained, and which achieves and perfects spontaneously with no attachment and no effort. Third, there is the one in which the Tathagatas receive their intuition of Dharmakaya."

 

Here is the original from Papaji:

 

"Spontaneous, without involvement in the thought process.

No thought process will be there--only direct sponta¬neous activity without thinking.

First I think and then I act.

This process will be gone and direct activity will be there according to circumstances.

In this process even the memory won't be there either.

You don't need memory.

Memory is ego itself."

 

 

I have no interest in a discussion on these concepts - I am interested in helping people Awaken and pointing to this.

What he is pointing to is more along the lines of "no past-ness".  Memory is already in the past - it is exactly as he said.

When you Awaken these words will find you - and they will find you again and again.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Spotless

[Jeff]

You are speaking conceptually - you have not arrived at what he is pointing to and do not understand this. He is speaking of the latter stages that you have quoted/paraphrased - IN both the second and 3rd stage. In the Intuitive "stage" (not to be confused with the clairvoyant siddhis).

 

From your response:

"Second, there is the one which is assumed by the Tathagatas according to the class of beings to be sustained, and which achieves and perfects spontaneously with no attachment and no effort. Third, there is the one in which the Tathagatas receive their intuition of Dharmakaya."

 

Here is the original from Papaji:

 

"Spontaneous, without involvement in the thought process.

No thought process will be there--only direct sponta¬neous activity without thinking.

First I think and then I act.

This process will be gone and direct activity will be there according to circumstances.

In this process even the memory won't be there either.

You don't need memory.

Memory is ego itself."

 

 

I have no interest in a discussion on these concepts - I am interested in helping people Awaken and pointing to this.

What he is pointing to is more along the lines of "no past-ness".  Memory is already in the past - it is exactly as he said.

When you Awaken these words will find you - and they will find you again and again.

 

 

I noticed in your chosen quotes, you specifically left out the past memory parts...

 

Just as his thoughts move instantly and without hindrance over walls and rivers and trees and mountains, and just as in memory he recalls and visits the scenes of his past experiences, so, while his mind keeps fuctioning in the body, his thoughts may be a hundred thousand yojanas away. In the same fashion the trasncendental personality that experiences the Samadhi Vajravimbopama will be endowed with supernatural powers and psychic faculties and self-mastery by reason of which he will be able to follow the noble paths that lead to the assemblages of the Buddhas, moving about as freely as he may wish.

 

As always, I only speak from my own experience and authority, but I think if you are honest with yourself you will realize that even in your enlightened state, all decisions include aspects of memory.  Whether driving to the grocery store, or chopping wood and carrying water somewhere...

 

First there is a mountain, then the mountain is gone, then the mountain is back again. 

[Spotless]

One may be speaking from one's siddhis and may be immersed in them and speak from them. And the experiences in them can be very high indeed - but one is still speaking from them and will still be in "conceptual" though it will not seem so and one cannot be convinced otherwise (unless one has not only Awakened but "abandon" the siddhis" and is no longer positioned in them - this usually takes a considerable time after Awakening).

 

If that point is arrived at one will never speak From authority. The words will be typed with no forethought and You will not be speaking them.

 

I do not claim Enlightenment - it is too brittle as a concept and creates spiritual competition or worship.

I have only claimed I have Awoken - which happened to the seeker who is no longer when not trying for "it".

 

In the five years since a considerable amount of clarity has replaced concepts from the many siddhis in which i both indulged and in many that I did not.

 

Papaji was not alluding to an initial stage and I omitted nothing. He was pointing to what I have already stated. It will not be clear until it is.

[3bob]

Buddhist or other texts can be quoted until the cows come home.... but I'd say Spotless has the correct pointer pointing even if the way he is commenting on it doesn't jive with everyone.

 

The Upanishads also point to the limits of memory...and or a "crossing".

 

Chances are that around 99.99% of us do not want  to or are not ready to leave memory or that which we think of as our mind  (which is understandable) for to do so is indeed about as "hairy" as it gets.   Btw, our seemingly particular mind is really part of THE Mind which is revealed in Spirit which sees and knows that.  (but not by mental seeing or knowing - hehe)