Methods, transmission of them and miracles

[Arkady Shadursky]

We have a set of statements from one of fellow members, about Daoism and Daode Center in particular. As answering it seems to be off the topic for the original thread I've decided to open a separate one. 

 

BTW I am sure that even from unsubstantiated statements could be contributing to the DaoBums - in case they get a reasonable comment. So here it is

 

Huang-di says 'no methods' - they insist on methods.

 

Here is quote from Huangdi's Yinfujing (黃帝陰符經), James Legge translation: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/sbe40/sbe4020.htm

 

6. The  method  of spontaneity proceeds in stillness, and so it was that heaven, earth, and all things were produced. The  method of heaven and earth proceeds gently and gradually, and thus it is that the Yin and Yang overcome (each other by turns). The one takes the place of the other, and so change and transformation proceed accordingly.

 

7. Therefore the sages, knowing that the method of spontaneity cannot be resisted, take action accordingly and regulate it (for the purpose of culture)

<...>

 

Chan buddhism says ' transmission outside the scriptures, Not founded upon words and letters;' - they thump texts they do not understand and insist that the proof is in tao-babble.

 

Under the link (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/) you can find very detailed article written by Chief Instructor of Yuxianpai and WuLiupai Shcools - A.A.Khoklov where stated that transmission from True Teacher is required and also written for what purpose one needs the texts.

 

Quanzhen masters say ' strange and deceitful things such as .. sending out the Spirit.' - they insist that the spirit travel is the ultimate proof.

 

The quote provided without its contexts and may be misleading to fellow members. Here is the full quote:

Hao Datong:

The Master-Father (Wang Zhe) opened below him his school of teaching hoping that each [disciple] would cultivate immortality. I now see disciples all over the place creating karma.They speak of strange and deceitful things such as entering dreams and sending outthe Spirit.

There is a comment below which is describing the sense of the quote and the sense is - students must not talk much about miracles but should do their practice instead.
 

And what is even more interesting - several sentences below in the same text goes the description of miracles demonstrated by Patriarch Wang Zhe (Wang Chongyang) who has indeed successfully attained the Dao:

 

As for [Wang Zhe] sending out his Spirit and entering dreams,throwing his umbrella,tossing his cap,and other such deeds of rising high above or disappearing,these were are all his [acts of] expedient wisdom and are not [related to] the master’s basic teachings.As forstudents who wish to hear the great Tao,it is [only] possible if they do not drown themselves in magical techniques.
 

 

I am always fascinated how  the every tenet of the commercial neidaneers is the direct opposite of the tradition they pretend to  represent. They are never more or less wrong. They are always 180 degrees, black to white wrong. And they are wrong on every instance.

 

Well... Seems some of the fellow members can not live a single day without posting about us

Let us give fellow members few examples regarding this:

 

Referring to the words of Patriarchs (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/) we say that guidance of the True Teacher is required, and there is no way to attain Dao from books while "Taoist Texts" is sure that everything could be studied from books (with no examples of it in the history ). Which of these is contradicting the Tradition?

 

Same to the Patriarchs of the Past we teach our students the concept of dual cultivation of Xing and Ming is required while "Taoist Texts" is saying that working with Xing is enough. Which of these is contradicting the Tradition?

 

We are researching, studying and teaching the sense behind  traditional  Daoist symbols explaining alchemy - such as Yin-Yang, Bagua, hexagrams of Yijing and other. While "Taoist Texts" says these traditional Daoist symbols have no relation to Neidan process :D

 

We provide clear and founded translations of the Daoist texts fragments against mistakes, quotes-without-contexts (i.e. with changed sense) and even cases of probable intentional mistranslations from the other side (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43034-correcting-some-misinterpretations). What from that is aligned with Tradition and what is contradicting it?

 

And there are much much more examples here...

 

Also this ridiculous  stuff about zipping around in a Yang spirit or whatever, where on earth did they get that from? From Harry Potter?

 

Please see 2nd quote about Wang Chongyang above

Guess if a one read Daoist treatises instead of Harry Potter he wouldn't get into such elementary fallacy as these...

 

Have a good day!

Edited February 7, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Jeff]

I would agree that it is hard to get very far without a "true teacher", and that such a teacher can "send their spirit" (or share presence remotely) with others.  If you are interested in the topic, I am happy to discuss it.

[Arkady Shadursky]

I would agree that it is hard to get very far without a "true teacher", and that such a teacher can "send their spirit" (or share presence remotely) with others.  If you are interested in the topic, I am happy to discuss it.

Thank you Jeff, you are welcome!

 

The Tradition says even more - the appearance of Yang spirit happens physically, it is not equal to Ying ghosts coming in dreams, apparitions and so on. And it is one of the ways to distinguish between Yang and Yin spirits. The first is able to manipulate with physical world, while the last is not...

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

[Jeff]

 

Thank you Jeff, you are welcome!

 

The Tradition says even more - the appearance of Yang spirit happens physically, it is not equal to Ying ghosts coming in dreams, apparitions and so on. And it is one of the ways to distinguish between Yang and Yin spirits. The first is able to manipulate with physical world, while the last is not...

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

 

 

 

I would agree that is consistent with many other traditions that I am aware of.  It is just that the desire for such abilities stops one from actually being able to access them.  It is more like with great clarity, comes great energy flows, which also correlate to the world.

 

In Dzogchen, the master Norbu describes it like this...

 

Thus great importance is given to maintaining the completeness of the individual's energy. Working from the other way round, it is possible to influence the external energy, carrying out what are called "miracles." Such activity is actually the result of having control of one's own energy, through which one obtains the capacity of power over external phenomena.

 

-Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Edited February 6, 2017 by Jeff

[qicat]

 

Thank you Jeff, you are welcome!

 

The Tradition says even more - the appearance of Yang spirit happens physically, it is not equal to Ying ghosts coming in dreams, apparitions and so on. And it is one of the ways to distinguish between Yang and Yin spirits. The first is able to manipulate with physical world, while the last is not...

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

 

 

Can you please elaborate more on Spirits in dreams? I am doing a research on this right now. Maybe you can help me with the following questions?

 

( If in a lucid dream)

1. The spirit has a shape and form and looks "healthy" and is physically talking to you/touching you - is it a real spirit or your subconsciousness?

 

2. The spirit has a shape and a form, but "feels ghostly" ( as it was traveling from the far away and should not be here) and is physically talking to you/touching you - is it a real spirit or your subconsciousness?

 

3. If next day you see in a dream a vigil by people you know alive for the spirit who came to you night before  ( the spirit of a dead person) - does it mean they sent that spirit back. ( Just connecting two dreams together, the spirit was talking ( but I have no memories), holding my third eye for very long time in a dream (but it felt very physical), and I also "felt" it ( spirit) is not supposed to be "here" ( this dimension). I told someone in RL about  my strange dream and next day I saw a dream about vigil. I have a strong suspicion they did a ritual to send this spirit back (???).

 

Do you have any book references on dreamwork ( not new age lucid dreaming stuff, but something preferably "original" translations of the old texts?)

 

-meow thanks

 

*****

p.s. The spirit in question is a spirit of a teacher of a person whom I told about my strange dream. I have not studied with this teacher ( at least in this lifetime) and never seen this teacher in person. The person I told my dream to was studying with that teacher for a very long time. There was no conversations/actions/etc which would trigger such dreams ( i.e. spoke about the teacher before going to bed, etc). I saw this teacher twice in my dreams: one time last February where he was "alive feeling" and now this February where he is a "ghost feeling". 

Edited February 6, 2017 by qicat

[Ormus]

Take with caution Wang Chongyang works.Hardly is he Xian when he die because of big health problems in his 58 year.

His wife expell him from house because he was acochol addict.

His meeting with Zhongli Quan and Lu Dong Bing in tavern where they drink vine can also be his alcoholic halucinations.He say that they initiated him in tavern,can you imagine this?

 

In his first works he speak about refining Jing,Qi and blood and not Shen.

 

His intervention to separate Ma Danyang and Sun Buer hardly is moral and not to mention respecting others will and self choice.

 

 

Ormus

Edited February 7, 2017 by Ormus

[[email protected]]

Take with caution Wang Chongyang works.Hardly is he Xian when he die because of big health problems in his 58 year.

His wife expell him from house because he was acochol addict.

His meeting with Zhongli Quan and Lu Dong Bing in tavern where they drink vine can also be his alcoholic halucinations.He say that they initiated him in tavern,can you imagine this?

 

In his first works he speak about refining Jing,Qi and blood and not Shen.

 

His intervention to separate Ma Danyang and Sun Buer hardly is moral and not to mention respecting others will and self choice.

 

 

Ormus

Wang Chongyang is one of the greatest taoists.

He is a founder of Quanzhen school and one of the 5 northern patriarchs of this school.

He is a known person.

Do you have any source for your conclusion or may be you have been confused with some other person?

Rgrds, Ilya

Edited February 7, 2017 by [email protected]

[awaken]

1159年6月，王重陽46歲，任甘河鎮酒監（徵收酒稅的小吏）時，頗不得意，身心俱疲，自稱「王害風」，又傾心道教，一日醉遇二道者，或說是正陽真人鍾離權、純陽真人呂洞賓（或說廣陽真人劉海蟾）密授修真口訣。他於是改名嚞，一名喆，字知明，道號重陽子。

 

 

https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/王重陽

 

He is a government officer of alcohol tax.

 

He is my hero, ha.

 

I read his story when I was 10.

 

 

Let's see one of his poems.

 

釋道從來是一家，Buddhism and Daoism are always the same family

 

兩般形貌理無差。two different faces but the same teaching

 

識心見性全真覺，shi mind appear Xin all real awareness

 

知汞通鉛結善芽。knowing well the mercury and lead to produce good bud

Edited February 7, 2017 by awaken

[Arkady Shadursky]

Can you please elaborate more on Spirits in dreams? I am doing a research on this right now. Maybe you can help me with the following questions?

 

Hello qicat thank you for your question.

 

I do have my own research on this matter and my opinion as well.

However let me please additionaly consult with my Teacher on this point.

 

Take with caution Wang Chongyang works.Hardly is he Xian <...>

 

Dear Ormus,

Almost entire non-religious Daoism existing nowadays is a heritage of Wang Chongyang. All all monks in all all monasteries in every mountains (of non-religious Daoism) nowadays represent Wang Chongyang's School.

 

All the Daoist Schools in China respect Wang Chongyang as one of the greatest Patriarchs of the past. WuLiupai and Yuxianpai Schools regard him as a grand-founder of these Schools.

 

Also my Teacher told me Wang Chongyang played invaluable role in saving Daoism Teaching - taking into account the Buddhist influence of his time.

 

Probably you've simply been confused by someone's personal opinion about Wang Chongyang.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

[Mudfoot]

 

Probably you've simply been confused by someone's personal opinion about Wang Chongyang.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

Eskildsens book, if I recall right, does paint a non-flattering picture of a person with unbalanced emotions.

[Ormus]

Dear Ilya and Arkady,

 

every single word that I write is true and come from books of Louis Komjathy and Stephen Eskildsen and they belive me read original Chinese documents because they write about sources for all this.Both are profesors and Louis is also Master in Hua Shan Pai.

 

If you have other clues please write here with reference and not what you belive or like to.

 

Ormus

Edited February 7, 2017 by Ormus

[Arkady Shadursky]

Dear Ilya and Arkady,

 

every single word that I write is true and come from books of Louis Komjathy and Stephen Eskildsen

<...>

 

Well, Ormus, if 20-th century's Louis Komjathy and Stephen Eskildsen wrote this about 11-th century's Wang Chongyang - it has to be complete truth (quanzhen )

 

Now all the Quanzhenjiao and derived Schools daoists are only left to make seppuku, and you are left to switch to Buddhism. Hope no one of scientists ever write that Buddha was drug addict and child molester, otherwise you would have the only and the last option left - to switch to Abrahamic religions.

 

Anyway, I wish you good luck!

 

(just in case - the text above is mostly humor, except sincere wish of luck).

 

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

 

P.S. Could you please provide here exact source for your opinion about Wang Chongyang - author, book, page and quote (if possible) - it would be quite interesting to have a look. Thank you.

[Ormus]

Well Arkady,

 

I see you like fairly tales about Immortals and like to be in dreams it is your choice.Authors I mentioned read original Chinese source and write their books.You dont need to belive this.And actualy I see you know what is truth.I know it is hard to accept to belong to lineage which started with such man and I understand you.I dont know why you whant that I name exact source when before this you decide to ignore authors because they are living in our times?Why not ingore late Patriarch Single Yang when he write about ancient Masters?

 

Ormus

[Arkady Shadursky]

Why not ingore late Patriarch Single Yang when he write about ancient Masters?

 

As Teacher of Single Yang is not writing about private life of ancient Patriarchs   - there is no analogy here.

 

Intresting enough why are you denying multiple mentionings about miracle abilities of Wang Chongyang and believe only to a single modern scientist’s opinion...

 

I dont know why you whant that I name exact source when before this you decide to ignore authors because they are living in our times?

 

Sometimes it happens that people get confused about what they read in books and mix it up with their own ideas... What about this particular case - it would be very interesting for me to read such a research, see its sources, ask clarifying questions to my Teacher if it is necessary. It seems to be constructive, isn't it?

 

Thank you.

---

Arkady

[Ormus]

Are you sure that Master Single Yang didnt write or speak about privious Masters?

 

What are miracles of Wang Chonyang?Why you belive if funny storys and not translation of original Chinese docuemnts?

 

Yes it is constructive buy books and read I dont have problem with that.

 

Ormus

[Arkady Shadursky]

<...>

What are miracles of Wang Chonyang?Why you belive if funny storys and not translation of original Chinese docuemnts?

<...>

 

Let me please third time ask you for the sources beyond "funny stories" to what you've mentioned, namely:

 

official document saying Wang Chongyang was very unhealthy (I assume it should be medical file)

official document saying Wang Chongyang was alcoholic (I assume it should be some kind of police report)

official documents saying Wang Chongyang has met Liu Dongbin and Zhongli Quan in his hallucinations (I assume it should be some kind of psychiatric clinic inquiry)

 

About evidences of Wang Chongyang's miracles -  for example please see "Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters" by Stephen Eskildsen, 2004, page 132, 133. 

 

On page 134 you can also find examples of miracles by his student Ma Yu (Ma Danyang - founder of Yuxianpai School).

---

Arkady

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

What are miracles of Wang Chonyang? 

 

Not are. Were. There are none of them now, regardless of what they were or were not in the past. However, for the modern commercial cults such as tibetan buddhism and the western neidan, the past and now non-existent miracles are essential. Without the past miracles they are just role-playing plus some qigung. And that does not sell as good.

[awaken]

Let me please third time ask you for the sources beyond "funny stories" to what you've mentioned, namely:

 

official document saying Wang Chongyang was very unhealthy (I assume it should be medical file)

official document saying Wang Chongyang was alcoholic (I assume it should be some kind of police report)

official documents saying Wang Chongyang has met Liu Dongbin and Zhongli Quan in his hallucinations (I assume it should be some kind of psychiatric clinic inquiry)

 

About evidences of Wang Chongyang's miracles - for example please see "Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters" by Stephen Eskildsen, 2004, page 132, 133.

 

On page 134 you can also find examples of miracles by his student Ma Yu (Ma Danyang - founder of Yuxianpai School).

---

Arkady

Can you show me what is the official document in Chinese saying Wang Chongyang was very unhealth and alcoholic?

 

Where is your official document from?

 

Wiki?

 

This is a formal article about wang.

 

And this article write every evidence very clear.

 

I didn't see the same thing with you.

 

I don't know where your official doc come from.

 

http://zh.daoinfo.org/w/index.php?title=王重陽&variant=zh-tw

 

 

We can see he past the exam of 武舉

 

https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/武举

 

宋代 編輯

宋仁宗以來便有武舉制度。每舉率七十人赴省試。前期軍頭引見司於內弓箭庫試驗弓馬，於別所附試程文七書義五道、兵機策二道。榜首為補保義郎，與巡檢差遣。

 

宋室渡江以後，試弓馬於殿前司。每舉登第者率20人。

 

淳熙二年三月乙已，詔武舉第一人為補秉義郎，堂除諸軍計議官。七年，改武舉殿試第一名與御前同正將，三名以上同副將，五名以上及省試魁同準備將，始為中舉者即從軍之先例。

 

武舉出身的人士，亦有「絕倫」的評價標準。淳熙十年，凡邊縣武舉出身人，能「射兩石弓，馬射九斗」，謂之「絕倫」[1]。

 

武舉 is the country exam of martial arts.

 

The people who can past the country exam of martial arts are very strong.

 

I don't know where did you get the "official doc" that wang were unhealthy and alcoholic.

 

 

I hope people who learn the daoist cultivation should not get the knowledges from English translated doc.

 

You should read the Chinese original doc to know the truth.

 

The link I provide that can give a lot of original doc to read.

 

Please read it before You talk about something that you don't know.

 

 

http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=608991#終南山神仙重陽真人全真教祖碑

 

This is original texts about wang.

 

Unhealthy? alcoholic?

 

Please read it first.

 

 

 

 

If you read the posts of Dawei, you can see how Chinese think about drinking.

 

Alcoholic?

 

You really think too much.

 

 

 

正隆己卯問，忽遇至人於甘河，以師為可教，密付口訣及飲以神水。自是盡斷諸綠，同塵萬有，陽狂垢污，人益叵測。慮夫大音不入俚耳，至言不契眾心，故多為玩世辭語，使人喜聞而易入。其變異談詭千態萬狀，不可窮請。嗚呼，箕子狂九疇叔，接輿狂鳳歌出，權智倒橫直堅，均於扶世立教良有以也。

 

We can see the different version about wang's crazy behavior.

 

It said because want met someone special, he started to be different.

 

In this version, we didn't see wang drink.

 

If you are my students, you will know very clear why people think you are drunk.

 

When we start to practice moving goung, we looks like drinker at the beginning.

 

I have been to 重陽宮 to see the two different places of wang's practicing.

 

The place he practiced moving gong is different from the place he practiced Jin gong.

Edited February 13, 2017 by awaken

[Arkady Shadursky]

Can you show me what is the official document in Chinese saying Wang Chongyang was very unhealth and alcoholic?

Thank you awaken, I was asking Ormus absolutely the same questions.

He told that he's got the proof for defaming Wang Chongyang.

 

We can see he past the exam of 武舉

 

https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/武举

 

宋代 編輯

宋仁宗以來便有武舉制度。每舉率七十人赴省試。前期軍頭引見司於內弓箭庫試驗弓馬，於別所附試程文七書義五道、兵機策二道。榜首為補保義郎，與巡檢差遣。

 

宋室渡江以後，試弓馬於殿前司。每舉登第者率20人。

 

淳熙二年三月乙已，詔武舉第一人為補秉義郎，堂除諸軍計議官。七年，改武舉殿試第一名與御前同正將，三名以上同副將，五名以上及省試魁同準備將，始為中舉者即從軍之先例。

 

武舉出身的人士，亦有「絕倫」的評價標準。淳熙十年，凡邊縣武舉出身人，能「射兩石弓，馬射九斗」，謂之「絕倫」[1]。

 

武舉 is the country exam of martial arts.

 

The people who can past the country exam of martial arts are very strong.

 

Also thank you for this valuable evidence about Wang Chongyang's Martial Arts achievements.

~~~

Taoist Texts, if you were caught on role-playing (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/23165-daoist-zhang-gaocheng/page-2#entry735950), that doesn't mean that everyone here is doing the same. Many of the members here are really studying Daoist Alchemy, some of them are visiting Chinese Masters of different Schools several times a year for more than 30 years in a row.

 

The miracles of Daoism - are all the consequences of the true alchemic achievement. Yet miracles are not the goal, they naturally appear with growth of practitioner's level. 

 

Even in the very beginning of  correct alchemy practice the little miracles start to appear in practitioner's life and we are always reported about it by our students. 

 

One of the first miracles to appear - is (among others) a miracle of 悟 - understanding natural laws, principles etc. - for example, understanding Bagua. It is one of signs that student is practicing by traditional school.

 

One of the most outstanding is achievement of Shenxian - he is able to manifest his Yang spirit to do deeds in external world. There is a description of his abilities by modern Wuliupai Patriarch (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42984-yangshen-perspectives-in-traditional-schools/#entry729116).

 

If you manage to meet and start practicing the rare ancient method which was used by Patriarchs of the Past - there is no doubt you will be able to achieve the same results as they have achieved. In Daode Center we call this method (and result) - Ancient Dao.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

[Mudfoot]

[Kara_mia]

It is interesting to note, that when Ormus wrote here that Wang Chongyang was an alcoholic, Awaken was nowhere to be found. However, as soon as Arkady asked Ormus to provide references to the sources, Awaken, not making the sense of Arkady’s post, immediately settled to defend Wang Chongyang.     

  

I wonder, what are her true purposes for participating here? Is it just constantly criticizing anything that is written by Arkady Shadursky, A.A. Khokhlov and other representatives of Daode centre? (not even comprehending the posts that they write…)

 

Regards,

Kara

[Ormus]

Hi Arkady,

 

strange that you first opose info from present autor then now insist for clues.

 

Here it is and be sure to read both books to find more fascinanting clues who where Wang Chongyang , Ma Danyang and Qiu Chuji actualy.Because profesor and Master Louis translated original Chinese documents that I supose you didnt read as you look pritty uninformed.

 

 

Louis Komjathy in his The Way of Complete Perfection
A Quanzhen Daoist Anthology

Page 276

However, because he held his own opinions, he was dismissed. Next, he
tried a military career, but could advance no further than a foot soldier.

Following this, he resigned from office, got rid of his seal, and abandoned his wife and children.

Page 277

During mid-autumn, he passed through Liquan County,270 where he again met the Daoist.
He hastened to greet him and offer his obeisance. Filled with joy, they invited each other to enter
a tavern. They drank together, during which the master asked where he was from.

278-279

On a different day, he found a jug of alcohol placed on the road. A Daoist called out to
him: “Haifeng, Haifeng, will you have a drink?” Master Chongyang agreed, and they drank together until the jug was empty. [4a] The Daoist then had him take the empty jug and fill it with water
from the Gan River.

From that moment on, Master Chongyang ceased
drinking alcohol. He only drank water.

Still, he constantly seemed drunk and would recite the “Yu meiren” (On the Excellent)

 

 

 

 

Louis Komjathy in his  Cultivating Perfection
Mysticism and Self-transformation in
Early Quanzhen Daoism

 

Page 37-38

Around the age of thirty, after abandoning his aspirations for offi cial and military success, Wang had something resembling a nervous
breakdown. It is possible that these events, specifi cally his lack of success
and subsequent disillusionment with dominant models of cultural
meaning and participation, planted the seeds for his future religious
undertaking.

Nonetheless, it
does appear that he lost all hope, sinking deeper into drunkenness and
becoming more and more alienated from his family.14 Wang’s erratic
and eccentric behavior inspired his acquaintances to refer to him as
Haifeng 害風 (Wild and Crazy) or Fengzi 風子 (Lunatic) (see Ganshui
lu, DZ 973, 1.3a; Jinlian xiangzhuan, DZ 174, 18b), a designation which,
judging by his poetry, Wang welcomed.15

38-39

The next major event in Wang Chongyang’s life according to Quanzhen
hagiographies occurred in 1159. In the summer of that year, at
the age of forty-eight, he allegedly encountered one or more supernatural
beings, identifi ed variously as “immortals” (xian 仙), “unusual people” ( yiren 異人), or “exceptional people” (zhiren 至人), in a tavern in
Ganhe township, near Huxian, Shaanxi.

page 41

In 1164,
while returning to Liujiang from an outing to Ganhe, a man asked
Wang for a drink from his liquor pot.21

21 During this time, Wang Chongyang was said to have carried around a liquor pot
and to have been frequently intoxicated.

Page 42

Following this event, Wang Chongyang refrained
from consuming alcohol.
The veracity of Wang’s mystical encounters is open to debate and
may be interpreted as a later hagiographical accretion.23 At the very
least, the identifi cation of the supernatural beings by name (Zhongli
Quan, Lü Dongbin, Liu Haichan) seems questionable.24

23 For critical remarks see Kubo 1967, 87–103; Eskildsen 2001, 145–47; 2004, 4–5;
Marsone 2001, 97–100; also Hachiya 1992. Pierre Marsone is perhaps the strongest
voice expressing a hyper-critical perspective. For Marsone, Wang’s mystical experiences
were later fabrications, produced for political purposes by Ma Danyang. “Ma’s major
contribution to the development of the Quanzhen movement was the introduction of the
legend of the immortal’s revelation and the cult of Wang Chongyang” (2001, 103).

 

For the end to ask you how Patriarch of Wu Liu Pai Master Single Yang speak what is Yang Shen when he didnt produce it?

 

Ormus

[Arkady Shadursky]

Dear Ormus,

I'll happily give you an answer, but for my answer to be complete could you please provide us with a source for two more claims you did here against Wang Chongyang:
 

1. "His wife expell him from house because he was acochol addict"

2. "he die because of big health problems"

Thank you
---
Arkady

Edited February 13, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Ormus]

Hi Arkady,

 

I dont have time to read again 2 books simple because you are not satisfied with what I provide.But I belive people here can see and check this books.Answers for this 2 questions are in this books.But as before you like to argue without clues.

 

Ormus

[Ormus]

Cultivating Perfection
Mysticism and Self-transformation in
Early Quanzhen Daoism
By
Louis Komjathy

page 258

When discussing Wang Chongyang’s teachings in
general and the Jinguan yusuo jue in particular (1992, 152–58, especially
152), he emphasizes that Wang Chongyang practiced internal alchemy
early in his life, eventually becoming accomplished in it. However, he
later became skeptical of neidan training, so that by the most mature
phase of his life he emphasized the simple practice of mental purity
and nonaction.6

page 51-52

While it seems that Wang intended to establish and disseminate Quanzhen in his
native region of Shaanxi, the group took lodging in an inn in Bianliang
(present-day Kaifeng, Henan), most likely due to the onset of illness.
Wang Chongyang died in Bianliang in 1170, about two months later,
and leadership responsibilities were transferred to Ma Danyang. After
burying Wang’s body in Bianliang, the four disciples honored Wang’s
request and made their way to Shaanxi.


Looks like that Wang rejected Nei Dan.There is also info that Quanzhen when they started speak about Jing,Qi and blood not Shen which show how they understand it and how this tradition developed in many stages till now.Simple they dont have full transmission of Zhong Lu and Nanzong.

And I find also in another document that later Longmen Patiarch Wang Changyue refused Nei Dan and Wai Dan too.

Ormus