Methods, transmission of them and miracles

[Arkady Shadursky]

Thank you Ormus for your help.

Well as far as "His wife expell him from house" statement left with no provided source, let's not consider it seriously

 

BTW, not sure where have you taken this from, but the one who writes that wife could ever expel husband from the house (in 12th century) seems to be complete profane in Chinese Culture.

Anyway let's look closer to the other statements:
 

<...>
It is possible that these events, specifi cally his lack of success
and subsequent disillusionment with dominant models of cultural
meaning and participation, planted the seeds for his future religious
undertaking.

Nonetheless, it does appear that he lost all hope, sinking deeper into drunkenness and
becoming more and more alienated from his family.

<...>

The veracity of Wang’s mystical encounters is open to debate and
may be interpreted as a later hagiographical accretion.

At the very
least, the identifi cation of the supernatural beings by name (Zhongli
Quan, Lü Dongbin, Liu Haichan) seems questionable.

<...>

 

<...>

While it seems that Wang intended to establish and disseminate Quanzhen in his
native region of Shaanxi, the group took lodging in an inn in Bianliang
(present-day Kaifeng, Henan), most likely due to the onset of illness.

<...>

 

Please look at highlighted parts in blue (all the your statements are based on those).
As we can see the researcher didn't have enough evidence to prove these points and all of this is personal opinion of the researcher.

Which seems to correspond well to my initial guess:
 

Probably you've simply been confused by someone's personal opinion about Wang Chongyang.

---

Best Regards,
Arkady

Edited February 14, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Arkady Shadursky]

For the end to ask you how Patriarch of Wu Liu Pai Master Single Yang speak what is Yang Shen when he didnt produce it?

 

At least we are glad to see you are not calling him alcohol addict 

---

Arkady

Edited February 14, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Ormus]

Arkady you see again you reacted from the position of full ignorace as on all other topics.I know that you are at the end to say that those are just wrong asumption of author who didnt understand.But I am sorry you provide source you asked and source in this case Louis translated original documents he mention in the books.But as always you dont like to read and ask me to read and  copy-paste  for you.People here on the forum can see and read and make their opinion.I dont have personaly problem with you or your school,I just whant to post here what others find in original sources for all of us to be nearer to the truth.

 

Ormus

[damdao]

(...) People here on the forum can see and read and make their opinion.I dont have personaly problem with you or your school,I just whant to post here what others find in original sources for all of us to be nearer to the truth.

 

Ormus

 

Hi Ormus, you know that I like that you write the fruit of your lineage researches in this forum. 

But I was about to tell something similar to what Arkady highlighted. 

Many of the conclusions of sinologist are no more than witty statements. In fact, daology is in diapers.

I like to read Eskildsen and Komjathy (and Bokenkamp and recently Esposito) but some statements are no more than assumptions and many original documents are not reliable at all. 

In order to do a complete and critical analisys we should evaluate original documents too. And discuss point by point.

The authors you quoted often discuss the reliability of such documents.

[Ormus]

Hi Damdao,

 

it seems that we are to call for such papers when this suit our agenda,like promoting past masters and what they say about teachings,method and transmission,but then when we find document which say some  bad information about idealised masters then we are to question this same documents.You know how this is called?Double standard politics!

 

Ormus

[damdao]

Hi Damdao,

 

it seems that we are to call for such papers when this suit our agenda,like promoting past masters and what they say about teachings,method and transmission,but then when we find document which say some  bad information about idealised masters then we are to question this same documents.You know how this is called?Double standard politics!

 

Ormus

 

Hmmm, I think this is the standard method for writing academic papers...

In recent years buddhist studies has advanced beyond that, and daoist studies are in the middle of this. In fact, Komjathy, for instance has to quote, in footnotes, researchers that are completely against daoism and his points of view. I don't remember now where (it was one of the early publications) but he discusses the biases of the academia (how to write a sinologic paper, what points of view can be expressed and so on). 

 

Besides, we have here, as in buddhism two discourses mutually exclusive: the academic and the daoist. The methods are different and the documents are different. 

[[email protected]]

Looks a bit strange when a respected and known master is claimed as alcoholic. All taoist community in China respects him as a patriarch and then some western authors make so called translations of something and say that he is not a master, look for the details... Moreover, he even rejected neidan etc.

I think - is it a serious translation from proven sources? In this case all Taoist history should be reviewed and changed due to these authors.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Mudfoot]

So:

1) These Western scholars are anti-quanzhen and have made up their stories.

2) They have mis-translated and misunderstood their references.

3) None of the above. And the picture that you see from this story is a man going through doubt and dispair before having a genuine spiritual breakthtrough. Not an uncommon story.

4) None of the above. [insert version of preferred truth here.]

[damdao]

(...)

Louis Komjathy in his The Way of Complete Perfection

A Quanzhen Daoist Anthology

Page 276

However, because he held his own opinions, he was dismissed. Next, he

tried a military career, but could advance no further than a foot soldier.

Following this, he resigned from office, got rid of his seal, and abandoned his wife and children.

Page 277

During mid-autumn, he passed through Liquan County,270 where he again met the Daoist.

He hastened to greet him and offer his obeisance. Filled with joy, they invited each other to enter

a tavern. They drank together, during which the master asked where he was from.

278-279

On a different day, he found a jug of alcohol placed on the road. A Daoist called out to

him: “Haifeng, Haifeng, will you have a drink?” Master Chongyang agreed, and they drank together until the jug was empty. [4a] The Daoist then had him take the empty jug and fill it with water

from the Gan River.

From that moment on, Master Chongyang ceased

drinking alcohol. He only drank water.

Still, he constantly seemed drunk and would recite the “Yu meiren” (On the Excellent)

 

 

(...)

 

 

So:

1) These Western scholars are anti-quanzhen and have made up their stories.

2) They have mis-translated and misunderstood their references.

3) None of the above. And the picture that you see from this story is a man going through doubt and dispair before having a genuine spiritual breakthtrough. Not an uncommon story.

4) None of the above. [insert version of preferred truth here.]

 

This quote seems to suggest the third option...

[Arkady Shadursky]

Dear Ormus,

 

Hi Damdao,

 

it seems that we are to call for such papers when this suit our agenda,like promoting past masters and what they say about teachings,method and transmission,but then when we find document which say some  bad information about idealised masters then we are to question this same documents.You know how this is called?Double standard politics!

 

Ormus

 

Thank you for your opinion. Any information about ancient Masters is extremely valuable, especially about their human way. We are actually looking for it ourselves. However we only work with original documents in Chinese to not get lost in researcher's personal interpretations.

 

Of course we shouldn't only accept the information we like and discard what we dislike - it would be childish for a researcher. That is why we really appreciate your contribution.

 

We believe you consider different points of view as well... We believe if among all the scientific works there are lets say 20 pages of someone's critique against a Master - we shouldn't stop studying other 20000 pages about Master's great deeds.

 

This quote seems to suggest the third option...

 

Agree, this seems to be typical story of how Teacher extraordinarily corrects his student's vices.
---
Best Regards,
Arkady

Edited February 15, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Ormus]

Hi Arkady,

 

normaly I am also for the truth.In the end we cant be sure for any of such details about past masters because even what come to us as original Chinese source was redacted few times and for sure there are real facts and later fake documents.

 

Storys and legends of past masters are important for us as inspiration and to give us some general direction,because of this we need to know our full genealogy.We dont need to opose that Nei Dan changed as Daoism evolved for milenia this is normal because new era bring new teachings and it advance.Also there are downgrading process which go to side paths and genealogy we use to see what is "orthodox" transmission from Xians.Today for us is more important who is and what knows our present Master who teach us....how this works and what are results.So relax because there is only NOW.

 

Ormus

[Arkady Shadursky]

Agree. However here lies a border between amateur and a scientist. In science there are ways to determine what is true and what is false. While amateur (it is not an offensive term!) can only read books and articles with conclusions of modern authors and do not have enough instruments and time to distinguish between good and bad sources.

 

And that is why scientific books and fiction are on different shelves in bookstores. 

 

It is indeed true that the most important for us are present Teachers. But please remember - we should not judge about the entire Daoism by looking at 10-20 modern public masters. In the Past there also were Daoist priests and they were available for everyone and were "face" of Daoism, but neidan Masters have always hidden from authorities of their time, and one of the reasons behind it is quite obvious...
---
Best Regards,
Arkady

[dawei]

that wife could ever expel husband from the house (in 12th century) seems to be complete profane in Chinese Culture.

 

I read this several days ago and am still laughing inside.... you're clearly not married to a chinese lady 

 

The Way of Complete Perfection: A Quanzhen Daoist Anthology

 

 

starting at P.32

Song on Awakening to Perfection by Wang Chongyang

 

 

At the age of nine, I had no concern for provincial affairs—

My paternal grandfather dead and mourned at eighty-two years.

At the age of twenty-three, I flourished among glorious days—

My elder uncle dead and mourned at seventy-seven years.

At the age of thirty-three, I realized my greed and lust—

My loving father dead and mourned at seventy-three years.

From antiquity to today, a lifespan of one hundred or seventy years is rare;

Observing this, the sequential passing away, how can I bear it?

At the age of thirty-six, I was soundly asleep within my slumber—

I began demanding that my elder brother share his livelihood.

With overbearing vitality I rushed against heaven, giving rein to my passions;

Morning after morning, day in and day out, I ruined myself in drunkenness.

Taking advantage of the weak, and cheating people, I passed my time;

I slandered my brother, scolded my wife, and had contempt for heaven and earth.

Tending to neither my family’s property nor my own person,10

I only considered and craved the empty fortunes and reputation of others.

Wealth slipped through my fingers like floating clouds

As the resentment and disdain of my wife and child rose as high as heaven.11

Selling off my property to obtain three portions of cash,

Two portions went to my food and clothing, one to my alcohol bill.

I was completely ignorant about what everyone else wore and ate;

I repaid my drinking debts and spoke about my great misfortune.

At the age of forty-eight, I took up contention and warfare—

Through contention, I carefully examined my entire person.

Suddenly, one morning, my heart broke apart;

I became insane,12 giving myself over to madness.

I ceased being afraid of people ridiculing and laughing at me;

With my whole heart, I only feared obscuring the luminosity of the Three Radiances.

Stilling worries and purifying thoughts, I attended to my own body;

As soon as awakening came, I abandoned wife and child.

I used to love washing my face and, alas, arranging my hair;

People around me would say I was quick to follow prevailing fashions.

With my family’s wealth completely squandered, excelling at carelessness,

I dreaded to work like horses and oxen, all for the sake of children and grandchildren.

At the age of fifty-two, light and shade were passing quickly—

To live to seventy years, how many days were really left?

The dangers of the road ahead correspond to the reincarnation cycle—

Old karma is difficult to disperse; to wait in idleness is to be lost.

Once one loses this human body, one will cease to be for ten thousand kalpas;

How can one find contentment under such circumstances?

We must know this before it’s too late, listening while robust and strong—

Abandon grave and graveyard to wander among clouds and waters.13

Is anything more enjoyable than wandering among clouds and waters?

To be free from anxiety, free from thought, free from activity.

My only pillow is the clear wind, a consequence of a previous existence;

The luminous moon through one circuit, this is my connection to a former life.

 

 

The Four Hindrances 

 

Alcohol

Alcohol, oh alcohol,

So hateful to the lips,

Plundering the mouth.

Innate nature overly obscured,

And spirit unable to flourish.

You injure and ruin the perfect and primordial;

You disperse and wear away longevity.

Half-intoxicated, anxiety fills the bowels;

Completely drunk, the heart-mind’s direction is lost.

Toward oneself, unrestrained, mad and wild;

Toward others, not even the most basic dignity.

What is better than abandoning this and waking up to sobriety?

Free from injury, free from calamity, cultivate the double nine.

 

 

You can bet the wife would of written a very different polemic 

[Ormus]

So Dawei you find clues yourself.I hope now someone is to belive that it is not my nor Louis opinion but translation from Chinese Longmen original materials.And here we see Wang himself confess.What we need more?

 

Ormus

[dawei]

So Dawei you find clues yourself.I hope now someone is to belive that it is not my nor Louis opinion but translation from Chinese Longmen original materials.And here we see Wang himself confess.What we need more?

 

Ormus

 

May be... but let's be fair... the idea of an 'alcoholic' in the west is very different than being somewhat norm in china.  

 

The key is to not project our understanding of terms and usage onto another culture.   The best approach is to live within that culture and then one is able to speak in some way about it. 

 

What we need is for folks to know another culture in experience not just in books nor teaching.    That may increase an understanding in history, teaching, and people.    But it is not required but may be a liability till we reach that point where there is singularity of thought, understanding, and feeling. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

My experience while living in China and travailing around was that there was not much drinking going on.Of course I was not at bars and clubing with the weekend warriors. I bought a beer and it was like 2% alcohol which is fine with me.

 

The martial arts are a living art, not a dead art of coping others. All the greatness should be made real in ourselves. All the un great should be eliminated in ourselves first.  

 

 

The skill of Internal Martial Arts controlling our electro magnetic energy fields to heal or disrupt these fields in  others are a real skill available to all with hard work, time and dedication.

 

Respecting or disrespecting Masters that have achieved these skills are a waste of time. Those with out achievement may judge and even dig up dirt to help themselves fill the void of what is lacking in themselves.

[Ormus]

I think that Wang tell himself what his life looked.So he drink till his 52 and we know he die ill in agony in his 58.Now who is to tell that he Mastered Daoism and Nei Dan for less then 6 years and become Xian?Are you sure this is ideal Master whose life you like to emulate?

Look what he do to his complete family and friends this is bastard and thats all.How 7 of his students was able to learn all for 6 years?Some of them be with him for 1-2 years only at the end of his life.And then they start new school.How lovly after 2 years of study you proclaim to be Patriarch and Master of your own school.

Where is here 100 days of replenishing making foundation,3 years to produce foetus plus 9 years facing the wall as AA.Khokhlov proposed?We see that Wang didnt have time for this procedure and I ask how he cant teach his students when he didnt do it himslef?Come on and wake up people....

 

Ormus

[dawei]

My experience while living in China and travailing around was that there was not much drinking going on.Of course I was not at bars and clubing with the weekend warriors. I bought a beer and it was like 2% alcohol which is fine with me.

 

IMO, then you didn't really experience China

 

It is nothing about bars and clubs.. please.. that is younger generation stuff.

 

Except that their beer really sucks and their wine is worse... but their baijiu is culturally embedded to knowing chinese. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Thanks dawei, I know, I had a rather jaded experience living on the mountain....Oh well.

[dawei]

Thanks dawei, I know, I had a rather jaded experience living on the mountain....Oh well.

 

I might say, go into the cities and live among the people... but living in the mountain seems... like finding a jade in the haystack

[Taoist Texts]

I read this several days ago and am still laughing inside.... you're clearly not married to a chinese lady 

 

Besides them being  tigresses, in the imperial times there were legal resources for the wives as well

 

Of course, people—male or female—could also appeal to the court for divorce (呈诉离婚). But it was supposed to be used only in extreme situations, like “the wife escaped”, “the husband had be missing for more than three years”, “the husband forced the wife to become prostitute”, “the husband sold the wife to others”, and “male family members raped the wife or her female relatives”.

And in a twist, the court could end a marriage without the consent of either parties. The law regulated that if any brawl, murder, or other criminal offense occurred between the couple or their relatives, the couple would be divorced by the court. It was called“义绝 ”, meaning “end the relationship”.

http://www.theworldofchinese.com/2015/06/bizarre-divorce-laws-in-ancient-times/

 

[Arkady Shadursky]

There is no contradiction with what I was saying before.
Wang stopped drinking alcohol right after he met the Teacher.
 

I read this several days ago and am still laughing inside.... you're clearly not married to a chinese lady 

 

Well, it depends.

 

Do you mean Chinese lady from 12th Century or the modern one?

Being a man from 12th Century or from 21th?
That's a great difference taking into account emancipation of women and feminism of the latest centuries. 

 

If a man is weak and lacking willpower (insufficient Yang), then probably wife could take control over him (if she has got more Yang).

Yes that could happen nowadays, but I doubt it is the case for 12th century's Wang Chongyang.

 

I think that Wang tell himself what his life looked.So he drink till his 52 and we know he die ill in agony in his 58.Now who is to tell that he Mastered Daoism and Nei Dan for less then 6 years and become Xian?Are you sure this is ideal Master whose life you like to emulate?

Look what he do to his complete family and friends this is bastard and thats all.How 7 of his students was able to learn all for 6 years?

<...>

 

 

Dear, Ormus.

If you insist on Wang being "dead ill in agony", then please share the source where Wang is dying in agony.

It would be nice to look at original Chinese source. Or if you don't know Chinese then at least provide where have you taken it from.

If your position is based only on the sources where an assumption made: "It is possible", "seems", "likely" than your position couldn't be stronger than "It is possible", "seems", "likely". This is a simple logic and the basics of scientific approach.

What about 6 years... Can we be sure that it was actually 6 years? Can we be sure that dead means "dead"?
There is only one way to know - studying original sources.

BTW, Please consider a word "immortal". Daoist community is not using this word without a reason. 

---
Best Regards,
Arkady

[Ormus]

Hi Arkady,

 

I see you again need more sources.But all answeres you look to find are writen by Wang miself and it is Chinese original that Louis just translated.Dawei posted the source and book if full of references.

 

Ormus

[Walker]

In 2010 I read a well-researched Chinese book whose contents closely paralleled Eskildsen's. I can't remember the title or author but it was already a few years old then and was published in cooperation with the Harvard-Yenching Institute, so maybe somebody can supply the title.

 

Anyway, in it Wang Chongyang was certainly depicted as a "colorful character" before and after becoming a master and then teacher of Daoism. References were made to his confessed love of drink before meeting Lu Dongbing and Zhongli Quan, his career disappointments, and maybe even what we might today call depression. After becoming a teacher it was recorded that he could be an extremely harsh disciplinarian, employing even corporal punishment. He was so harsh that, as I believe Eskildsen noted, Ma Danyang ran away for awhile. But the important thing is this: the biographical/hagiographical information that the author drew upon came from stone stela in Daoist temples, as well as from Ma Danyang's and Wang's own personal writings. Anybody who considers this information to constitute a "criticism" of Wang Zhongyang would need to explain why Daoists would go to the trouble to erect stone tablets to detail a history of their founders that they considered shameful (or as evidence that Wang or Ma were not actually accomplished). Given that Wang Chongyang is still afforded utmost respect in temples today, then it's extremely unlikely that Wang's foibles before his accomplishment or his many personality quirks afterwards have ever bothered Quanzhen Daoists. I think the general feeling is this: Wang Zhe was a man whose life left him weary of the world and burdened with an existential crisis of sorts. Eventually, due to his accumulated de and his destiny, he had the good fortune of receiving a transmission and being capable of practicing it. After realizing the Dao, he employed rather shocking methods of teaching and behaving in order to educate a small core of students that he was destined to meet and "save." His methods worked and his seven core disciples all achieved themselves.

 

As for Wang's "untimely" death, one explanation you hear is that he wanted to teach his students not to be attached to the body. Of course, such an explanation presupposes that physical immortality is possible and that Wang decided against it and intentionally manifested illness or allowed himself to fall ill, so as to set an example. Perhaps. Then again, maybe not. Consider this exchange between Wang Chongyang and Ma Danyang:

 

丹陽又問： 何者名為長生不死？

Danyang further asked: what is that which is called 'long alive and not dying?'

 

祖師答曰： 是這真性不亂， 萬緣不掛， 不去不來， 此是長生不死也。 

Replying, Ancestor Teacher said: It is the true xing not [being made] chaotic, [with] no attachment to the myriad karmas, not going and not coming, this is 'long living and not dying.'

 

It is well known that by the time Quanzhen Daoism came along the influence of Chan Buddhism was everywhere in Chinese religion. Is Wang Chongyang saying that what immortality actually refers to is something "original" and "beyond beyond," like so-called Buddha nature? This is a question that is probably worthy of contemplating.

 

As for Chinese marital relationships: the idea that marriage to a twentieth century Chinese woman tells us anything about marriage dynamics in any other era is laughable. We will never know what Wang's family life was really like, but one thing is sure: the Song Dynasty is famously described as a time when the rights of women dropped substantially, supposedly due to influential chauvinist reactionaries who saw the Tang's downfall as in part due to a decadence that included allowing women too much freedom. Thus, the great scholar Zhu Xi (朱熹/朱子) is nowadays just as famous for his writings on the Yijing as he is for his extremely old-fashioned views on women. I've actually seen an old woman with bound feet dragging herself up a staircase by the banister in China, in a subway station in modern Beijing. Surrounded as she was by women of numerous other generations, it was a stark reminder that social mores are in constant and dramatic flux. Was Wang's wife similarly oppressed? Who knows--all we can be certain about is that her worldview was nothing like that of anybody we know living today.

 

Finally, as for the questions of what exactly Wang Chongyang achieved and whether or not he'd have been able to do so in light of the various theories available to us in neidan texts, I can only say that this is a question whose answer is even further from any mere mortal than our wild speculations about Mrs. Wang's temperament. If you went to a Daoist teacher who actually cares about your cultivation to present the thesis that the meditation instructions X book proved that Y immortal actually isn't an immortal, he or she would probably be at a loss as to whether to laugh, cry, or whack you smartly across the face with a shoe like the wise and compassionate Master Wang himself would have! May we all be so lucky as to meet masters who can clearly see our stupidity and rudely smack us out of it at the right moment! I'd take a stinging cheek over another five kalpas in this place...

Edited February 17, 2017 by Walker

[Taoist Texts]

laughable. ... but one thing is sure: the Song Dynasty is famously described as a time when the rights of women dropped substantially, 

 

 

gender equality, in which the Song Dynasty was clearly superior to the Tang Dynasty," Wang writes. 

http://www.womenofchina.cn/womenofchina/html1/special/14/9844-1.htm