Noumenon & Phenomena

[Jeff]

Maybe we are just using different meaning to some of the terms, but to me "surrendering" is letting go of your own desires or will, and not changing or re-aligning your will to some new view or desires.  Letting go is simply dropping and not reprograming one addiction to another.

[3bob]

I'm surprised you don't hear my drift with your Christian background....I can 100% guarantee  you that Lord Jesus has a truly incredible, irresistible  and indomitable will in alignment with Spirit!   

Edited June 28, 2018 by 3bob

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, 3bob said:

I'm surprised you don't hear my drift with your Christian background....I can 100% guarantee that you that Lord Jesus has a truly incredible, irresistible  and indomitable will in alignment with Spirit!   

 

This is a hindu forum, so I try to stay away from Christian concepts in this thread.  

 

But, with Jesus it was about surrendering and letting go... It is not about willing in the same direction, but finding truth in the underlying clarity letting go.  As, the gospel John says... Moses was about the law (aligning with the rules), but Jesus was about grace and truth (forgiving and letting go).

[Bud Jetsun]

When ones body consumes a fruit, it's not because of a rigorous and precise conscious effort to label and select which compounds and molecules should go to eyes and heart and brain and skin to become that body.  The spirit handles this emmensely complex beyond human mind comprehension task for each of us effortlessly. 

 

When given life experience rather than fruit, the spirit equally effortlessly knows exactly what it needs to harvest in enriching experience to evolve. 

 

Conflict only occurs as a result of a false delusion expectation of how Now should be somehow different than its inherent divine perfection. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

This is a hindu forum, so I try to stay away from Christian concepts in this thread.  

 

But, with Jesus it was about surrendering and letting go... It is not about willing in the same direction, but finding truth in the underlying clarity letting go.  As, the gospel John says... Moses was about the law (aligning with the rules), but Jesus was about grace and truth (forgiving and letting go).

 

I agree with 3bob, I perceive a strong current of realignment which I think is vital, for instance “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.” Luke 22:42

[3bob]

The Prince of Peace  also aspects like a Lion and warrior that none can throw-down. 

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I agree with 3bob, I perceive a strong current of realignment which I think is vital, for instance “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.” Luke 22:42

 

As always, it helps to put the quote in context...

 

“And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:39-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

As always, it helps to put the quote in context...

 

“And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:39-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

 

Do you think the longer quote somehow changes the meaning of "not my will but thine be done"? I can't see it myself, maybe you could explain how it changes it for you.

 

And then again this is not the only reference, how about “For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother” Matthew 12:50.

[3bob]

On 6/26/2018 at 7:42 AM, neti neti said:

How about: the appearance of will reveals one is "prior to" the will to Be?

 

Impulse sparks perpetual chain reactions.

 

 

those are interesting lines...(if you would care to fill them out further I would appreciate it )   Btw, I appreciate Mr. O's description (in the 4th way)  of what Mr. G said about the actions and workings of Law of Three and the Law of Seven that have chain reaction like aspects...

Edited June 28, 2018 by 3bob

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Do you think the longer quote somehow changes the meaning of "not my will but thine be done"? I can't see it myself, maybe you could explain how it changes it for you.

 

And then again this is not the only reference, how about “For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother” Matthew 12:50.

 

The difference between your and 3Bob’s view and mine is in your concept of forcing or changing your will to be in line with the fathers. No human will can know what that is. Thinking that you do (or could), is an example of the “temptation” that Jesus tells you to avoid in the broader part of the quote I included. Jesus is not saying to align your will, he is teaching to drop (or let go of) your will and desires. The natural will of the father is an inherent part of all of us. It just part of our natural being when you let go of all those ego hopes, desires and fears. 

 

It is not possible to condition (or change) the mind and realize the father or Dao. One must drop and let go of the mental constructs that bind one to the framework of mind. 

[Fa Xin]

The quotes from the Bible seem to refer to a dropping of ones own will in favor of the “Fathers will”. Not sure how it can be interpreted another way...?

[neti neti]

26 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It is not possible to condition (or change) the mind and realize the father or Dao. One must drop and let go of the mental constructs that bind one to the framework of mind. 

 

Even the act of dropping & letting go? And dare I say, even the construct of having a will?

[3bob]

as long one is interacting in "creation" as a being a body of some sort is a factor along with will... (among other things) 

 

for instance the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba, was known to have a great will  through working with Taoist like principles  - which gave him great ability even in very old age to take down or resist multiple opponents...

Edited June 28, 2018 by 3bob

[Jeff]

31 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Even the act of dropping & letting go? And dare I say, even the construct of having a will?

 

If you are “thinking” that you are going to drop or let something go, then there is still energy there and subconsciously you are not really doing it. If something drops, it is gone. Letting go is not an act of will, it is a release of the construct that thinks it has a will. 

[Bindi]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

The difference between your and 3Bob’s view and mine is in your concept of forcing or changing your will to be in line with the fathers. No human will can know what that is.

 

Indeed the gate is small and the way is narrow, and there are few who find it, but there will always be some who do, and those few seem to be specified as those that do the will of the Father, I suspect regardless of whether you think it is possible or not. 

 

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ 
shall enter the kingdom of heaven, 
but [only] he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:21 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thinking that you do (or could), is an example of the “temptation” that Jesus tells you to avoid in the broader part of the quote I included.

 

The temptation Jesus refers to is more likely related to the trial of coming danger and persecution.

 

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Jesus is not saying to align your will, he is teaching to drop (or let go of) your will and desires.

 

I think the idea of aligning your will with the Father's is a thoroughly Christian concept, even though you don't agree with it for various reasons. 

 

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

The natural will of the father is an inherent part of all of us. It just part of our natural being when you let go of all those ego hopes, desires and fears. 

 

In Christian terms the Father's will is apparent before dropping the ego, it doesn't just appear afterwards. 

 

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It is not possible to condition (or change) the mind and realize the father or Dao. One must drop and let go of the mental constructs that bind one to the framework of mind. 

 

Submission to the will of the Father is a conscious action that devout Christians would aspire to on a daily basis, sometimes to great effect. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Indeed the gate is small and the way is narrow, and there are few who find it, but there will always be some who do, and those few seem to be specified as those that do the will of the Father, I suspect regardless of whether you think it is possible or not. 

 

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ 
shall enter the kingdom of heaven, 
but [only] he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:21 

 

 

 

The temptation Jesus refers to is more likely related to the trial of coming danger and persecution.

 

 

I think the idea of aligning your will with the Father's is a thoroughly Christian concept, even though you don't agree with it for various reasons. 

 

 

In Christian terms the Father's will is apparent before dropping the ego, it doesn't just appear afterwards. 

 

 

Submission to the will of the Father is a conscious action that devout Christians would aspire to on a daily basis, sometimes to great effect. 

 

 

I totally agree that my views are not the same as the institutional church views. Also, I am not trying to articulate a Christian view, but more explain the underlying process. This is a Hindu forum, and so Hindu teaching would seem to be a more appropriate discussion. 

 

But, in general, I would agree that the church teaches that you should submit and stop “sinning” and will go to hell if you don’t do what they say. I am just saying that is a mistaken view.

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

 

I totally agree that my views are not the same as the institutional church views. Also, I am not trying to articulate a Christian view, but more explain the underlying process.

 

I realise you are trying to explain something from your experience and perspective, but I don't think you can assume and state that Jesus had the same perspective and experience as you. From my reading I think that he believed that he and other people could and should align their will with the Father.

 

 

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

 

This is a Hindu forum, and so Hindu teaching would seem to be a more appropriate discussion. 

 

But, in general, I would agree that the church teaches that you should submit and stop “sinning” and will go to hell if you don’t do what they say. I am just saying that is a mistaken view.

 

 

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I realise you are trying to explain something from your experience and perspective, but I don't think you can assume and state that Jesus had the same perspective and experience as you. From my reading I think that he believed that he and other people could and should align their will with the Father.

 

 

 

 

For the sake of offering another perspective,

 

if indeed one one has given up their will and surrendered to the Father, shouldn’t their perspective and Jesus’ perspective be very similar? 

 

Not saying Jeff or anyone in particular has done so - who am I to say. But I would think if someone is truly at that stage of surrender - what would make their perspective different?

 

Who would want to argue with God? Lol

Edited June 28, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Jonesboy]

I see it kind of like this.

 

If you are truly present you let go and go with the flow right?

 

It is our obstructions (will/temptation) that keeps us caught up in our issues and far from realizing the Father or true clarity.

 

A pretty common concept across all traditions isn't it?

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I realise you are trying to explain something from your experience and perspective, but I don't think you can assume and state that Jesus had the same perspective and experience as you. From my reading I think that he believed that he and other people could and should align their will with the Father.

 

 

Bindi,

 

While the institutional church may agree with you, Jesus is very clear on the matter...

 

1 John 1:12-13

 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

Drop the will, it is not useful...

 

Best,

Jeff

[3bob]

I'd say if one has seen and felt the power that Jesus radiates then they have zero doubt of his will (and compassion) in alignment with Spirit,  regardless of their sect, text or earthly upbringing.  Such is similar when meeting great beings of various ways,  for instance  the Masters and "gods" known by and spoken of by various ways.  

[Fa Xin]

9 minutes ago, 3bob said:

I'd say if one has seen and felt the power that Jesus radiates then they have zero doubt of his will (and compassion) in alignment with Spirit,  regardless of their sect, text or earthly upbringing.  Such is similar when meeting great beings of various ways,  for instance  the Masters and "gods" known by and spoken of by various ways.  

So do the Masters have wills that are seperate from God/spirit?

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, 3bob said:

I'd say if one has seen and felt the power that Jesus radiates then they have zero doubt of his will (and compassion) in alignment with Spirit,  regardless of their sect, text or earthly upbringing.  Such is similar when meeting great beings of various ways,  for instance  the Masters and "gods" known by and spoken of by various ways.  

 

Again, I do not doubt the feeling of power, but again as Jesus clearly states...

 

John 14:10-11

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 

 

Not his own authority/will. One with the father, not one thinking they are going the same direction as the father. Don’t chase it, simply let go of the desires and mental constructs that obscure what is already there...

[3bob]

As far as i"m concerned Jeff you don't get the context about will as I brought it up - which  you have your right to.

 

I think I do get your drift about the different context concerning will that you have brought up - although I don't believe the quotes you are using support that.

Edited June 28, 2018 by 3bob

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, 3bob said:

As far as i"m concerned Jeff you don't get the context about will as I brought it up - which  you have your right to.

 

I think I do get your drift about the different context concerning will that you have brought up - although I don't believe the quotes you are using support that.

 

Haha... Is that like telling me I have the right to be wrong (since I dont get it)...

 

Oh well, I tried. I will simply let it go and leave the thread to your and Bindi’s aligned wills... Enjoy