Noumenon & Phenomena

[neti neti]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

If you are “thinking” that you are going to drop or let something go, then there is still energy there and subconsciously you are not really doing it. If something drops, it is gone. Letting go is not an act of will, it is a release of the construct that thinks it has a will. 

 

And what of the construct that releases the construct that thinks?

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

And what of the construct that releases the construct that thinks?

 

Mind is mind no matter the level or layer of focus. Clarity is clarity (or not). Just as energy is energy, refinement is just increasing clarity.

 

 

[Bud Jetsun]

Monkey-minding a construct delusion of comprehending God's will is just one more obstacle between a being appreciating Now, which is the whole of that which is of God and the divine. 

 

In appreciating the real, one may recognize divine perfection of the galaxy of galaxies. Starting fresh as a beginner knowing nothing and clinging to nothing in each passing second, the cup may have enough empty space for the divine. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

[3bob]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Haha... Is that like telling me I have the right to be wrong (since I dont get it)...

 

Oh well, I tried. I will simply let it go and leave the thread to your and Bindi’s aligned wills... Enjoy

 

 

 

haha, so you tried...or maybe not.  (really)

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Monkey-minding a construct delusion of comprehending God's will is just one more obstacle between a being appreciating Now, which is the whole of that which is of God and the divine. 

 

In appreciating the real, one may recognize divine perfection of the galaxy of galaxies. Starting fresh as a beginner knowing nothing and clinging to nothing in each passing second, the cup may have enough empty space for the divine. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

 

Well said.  

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Bindi,

 

While the institutional church may agree with you, Jesus is very clear on the matter...

 

1 John 1:12-13

 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

Drop the will, it is not useful...

 

Best,

Jeff

 

To prove your point you have resorted to John's perspective and words to oppose multiple repetitions attributed to Jesus to do the Father's will. 

[Fa Xin]

38 minutes ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Monkey-minding a construct delusion of comprehending God's will is just one more obstacle between a being appreciating Now, which is the whole of that which is of God and the divine. 

 

In appreciating the real, one may recognize divine perfection of the galaxy of galaxies. Starting fresh as a beginner knowing nothing and clinging to nothing in each passing second, the cup may have enough empty space for the divine. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

Lovely and well put !

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

To prove your point you have resorted to John's perspective and words to oppose multiple repetitions attributed to Jesus to do the Father's will. 

 

Your kidding right? Mean you simply ignore gospels that dont fit your view of Jesus’s teachings?

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Monkey-minding a construct delusion of comprehending God's will is just one more obstacle between a being appreciating Now, which is the whole of that which is of God and the divine. 

 

In appreciating the real, one may recognize divine perfection of the galaxy of galaxies. Starting fresh as a beginner knowing nothing and clinging to nothing in each passing second, the cup may have enough empty space for the divine. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

 

Here is the same point found in the gospels...

 

“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

We all think that our will and judgements are correct, as Bud said monkey mind playing with itself. Simply drop the crap and find the divine underneath it all...

[Bindi]

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Your kidding right? Mean you simply ignore gospels that dont fit your view of Jesus’s teachings?

 

Haven't you just ignored multiple quotes (attributed to Jesus himself, not a commentator) that clearly state Jesus had to make a conscious decision to submit his will to the Father even to death, and Jesus's requirement that we too "Do the will of the Father"? Does this mean you simply ignore the direct teachings of Jesus that don't fit your view? 

[Bindi]

46 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Here is the same point found in the gospels...

 

“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

We all think that our will and judgements are correct, as Bud said monkey mind playing with itself. Simply drop the crap and find the divine underneath it all...

 

Yes, "I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me" = "Not my will but Thy will be done." 

edit: Your perspective sees the divine only underneath obstruction, which has to be removed to see it. The alternative perspective (which I believe the bible supports) is that we can align with the divine even while we have emotional and mental obstructions, and in fact it is only this alignment that will lead us to 'the kingdom of heaven.'  Without it as far as Jesus's recorded words go there actually is no entry into the divine.  

 

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Bindi

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Haven't you just ignored multiple quotes (attributed to Jesus himself, not a commentator) that clearly state Jesus had to make a conscious decision to submit his will to the Father even to death, and Jesus's requirement that we too "Do the will of the Father"? Does this mean you simply ignore the direct teachings of Jesus that don't fit your view? 

 

Your quote simply stated not my will, but yours. Jesus is simply pointing out to avoid the temptation of trying to assert his own desires by avoiding his fate. But with the help of an angel in the gospel he is able to let go his own desire/will. The angel is an example of divine grace found in the surrending.

 

Do do you know of any quotes in the gospels where it says your own focus and will can get you into heaven? Jesus is all about surrender and letting go. 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Your quote simply stated not my will, but yours. Jesus is simply pointing out to avoid the temptation of trying to assert his own desires by avoiding his fate. But with the help of an angel in the gospel he is able to let go his own desire/will. The angel is an example of divine grace found in the surrending.

 

Do do you know of any quotes in the gospels where it says your own focus and will can get you into heaven? Jesus is all about surrender and letting go. 

 

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

 

Also "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well [food and clothes]."

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Bindi

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

 

Also "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well [food and clothes]."

 

 

 

 

Have to start somewhere...

 

Knock, and the door will be opened. No need to keep knocking after the door is opened though...

[Fa Xin]

I just feel like “trying” to let go of something won’t work. 

 

It seems to only happen by itself ... many times once you stop trying, it happens. 

 

Im sure everyone at one time or another has experienced this...

[Bindi]

9 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Have to start somewhere...

 

Wouldn't you need to find the door first?

 

9 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Knock, and the door will be opened. No need to keep knocking after the door is opened though...

 

 

[Fa Xin]

6 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Wouldn't you need to find the door first?

 

 

 

Lol. I don’t even know what we’re talking about anymore. 😊

 

Really though - if you’ve ever “stopped worrying” about something... was it a conscious act of will? There’s many things that have bothered me deeply, yet I can’t seem to control if I will or will not let something bother me. 

 

I can think circles around the issue, and I can focus on not thinking about it. 

 

Usually once i start thinking or doing something else, that is when the issue or worry falls away and lets go of my poor brain. 

 

But I seem to have no control of such things... they happen on their own. 

 

Or am I wrong ?? 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, Fa Xin said:

I just feel like “trying” to let go of something won’t work. 

 

It seems to only happen by itself ... many times once you stop trying, it happens. 

 

Im sure everyone at one time or another has experienced this...

 

I think the issue is that aligning your will with the divine is the way to let all obstructions go, it's not directly trying to let things go. It's acknowledging that something has to be done, but allowing divine guidance to show you how to do it. 

[Fa Xin]

Just now, Bindi said:

 

I think the issue is that aligning your will with the divine is the way to let all obstructions go, it's not directly trying to let things go. It's acknowledging that something has to be done, but allowing divine guidance to show you how to do it. 

 

Ahhh. Ok. Thanks for the clarification. 

 

I guess my disagreement comes in at “show you how to do it”. I skip over this step and let the divine do it for me. 

 

Im ultra lazy...

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Ahhh. Ok. Thanks for the clarification. 

 

I guess my disagreement comes in at “show you how to do it”. I skip over this step and let the divine do it for me. 

 

Im ultra lazy...

 

Again, just biblically speaking, "Jesus answered, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able."  

 

 I suspect a lot of effort is actually required to get through the narrow door, but on the plus side there are other doors available that are wider and much easier to get through.  

 

edit: the greek word used for 'make every effort' or 'strive' "is agonizomai, implying an agonizing, intense, purposeful struggle. It is the same word used in 1 Corinthians 9:25 of an athlete battling to win a victory. It is also used in Colossians 4:12 of Epaphras laboring fervently, and in 1 Timothy 6:12, of the Christian who "fights the good fight of faith." It is a struggle, a battle, an extreme effort. There is almost a violence implied. And appropriately so, because entering the kingdom is like going into warfare. . . .

 

The message of Jesus cannot be made to accommodate any kind of cheap grace or easy-believism... It is only for those who seek it with all their hearts, those who agonize to enter. Many who approach the gate turn away upon finding out the cost."

(John F. MacArthur, Jr., The Gospel According to Jesus, 182-83)

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Bindi

[Fa Xin]

1 minute ago, Bindi said:

 

Again, just biblically speaking, "Jesus answered, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able."  

 

 I suspect a lot of effort is actually required to get through the narrow door, but on the plus side there are other doors available that are wider and much easier to get through.  

 

 

 

 

Nice. 😊

 

As long as it’s working for you, no need to change anything. 

[3bob]

there are some relations but lets not get desire and will mixed up or will-fullness for that matter.

 

 

[Fa Xin]

7 minutes ago, 3bob said:

there are some relations but lets not get desire and will mixed up or will-fullness for that matter.

 

 

Any difference between will and intention?

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Your quote simply stated not my will, but yours. Jesus is simply pointing out to avoid the temptation of trying to assert his own desires by avoiding his fate. But with the help of an angel in the gospel he is able to let go his own desire/will. The angel is an example of divine grace found in the surrending.

 

You say divine grace both helped him let go of his own will/desire and was found in his surrendering, making surrender seem both simple and rewarding, yet it was after this that "in His anguish, He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat became like drops of blood falling to the ground."  His anxiety appears to have actually increased, even though he had been "strengthened" by divine grace - he still had to work incredibly hard (agonizomai?) to align with God's will even then. 

 

Quote

 

Galen, the famous Greek physician of the second century, spoke of the situation where “the pores are so vastly dilated by a copious and fervent spirit, that even blood issues through them and constitutes a bloody sweat” 

 

In 1874, William Stroud, a London physician... argued that bloody sweat is indeed possible under extreme emotional exertion, especially in cases of anxiety and terror. Dr. Stroud, who had the reputation of being a “careful writer,” cited a number of cases to illustrate his thesis (see McClintock, 838).

 

In 1986, an article... appeared in the prestigious Journal of the American Medical Association. It was authored by Dr. William Edwards (a pathologist with the Mayo Clinic), Wesley Gabel, a biblical scholar, and Floyd Hosmer, a specialist in medical graphics at the Mayo Clinic.

 

These gentlemen suggested that ...[sweating blood] is perfectly consistent with a condition known as “hematidrosis,” in which there can be hemorrhaging into the sweat ducts during periods of acute emotional distress. In such cases, the skin becomes fragile and tender, and subcutaneous capillaries can dilate to such an extent that they burst, causing blood to ooze from the skin (Edwards, et al.).

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Bindi

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

You say divine grace both helped him let go of his own will/desire and was found in his surrendering, making surrender seem both simple and rewarding, yet it was after this that "in His anguish, He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat became like drops of blood falling to the ground."  His anxiety appears to have actually increased, even though he had been "strengthened" by divine grace - he still had to work incredibly hard (agonizomai?) to align with God's will even then. 

 

 

That verse is immediately after the one I mentioned, so I see it more not about increasing, but more a continue of the description of the level of the anguish (saying how strong the desire is to exert ones own will).  Especially since Jesus had the power to avoid all that was about to come after Jesus’s betrayal. But, I totally see that your view of the verses is makes sense too. 

 

Thanks.