Teachers who accept money vs. teachers who teach for free

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The issue in the question of chargeable teaching is that it is difficult to differ the true teacher vs a commercial dealer. From my point of view this is more actual problem then discussing if true teachers should or should not take money for teaching.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Orion]

On 3/5/2017 at 8:15 PM, Earl Grey said:

 

One of my teachers does charge a lot, but he isn't limited to the wealthy. If anything, he does so simply to show the fact that the knowledge is beyond value, and when people are turned off by it, he uses it as a barometer to see who is serious and able to commit--then after that, he works with them to make sure they get exactly what they pay for.  They aren't just paying for the technique--they are paying for the guidance. 

 

So $2000 for a part one of a four-part workshop is indeed ludicrous, but some people pay for it. With what is taught in my experience, to be paid that amount is not just for the skill, but weeks and possibly months of proper guidance as the tools will change us, and we need to make sure we develop properly with the correct mind, correct speech, correct actions, and correct path. 

 

If money were no object, I would teach for free, but I would screen my students. It has nothing to do with one's social standing but their potential to have insight. I understand that money is real and it's also a form of energy. When we pay for a service (like a teaching), it's trading energy (teachings) for energy (money). At some point though it becomes a bit much... like when teachers are obviously gouging students in order to pad their luxury lifestyles.

 

When I pay a teacher, if my funds are going toward their further development on the path, which in turn becomes of benefit to everyone, then I am okay with that, within reason. Some people are just selfish and have no ethics. They think their teachings are solid gold and they don't care if their students live in poverty in order to learn them.

 

To me, a teacher who is self-realized will have a compassionate nature and have workarounds for this. Maybe we can do an exchange. Maybe I can do grunt work for them for a while. Or maybe they just see that I'm worth it and will teach me because the higher power (or whatever you want to call it) is directing them to teach me. I've met people like that... who are so difficult, but I know they MUST know something I know and therefore I should stick around. But there are a lot of teachers out there who don't look beyond the material and see those kinds of virtues. They think about their lives, their immediate gain... there's no understanding of Source and universal regeneration.

 

I find that the more generous I am, the more I am given to, even if it's not from the person I just gave to. Some other aspect of life comes through. Giving and receiving are part of the same channel. Denying one is denying both. Too bad capitalism doesn't see it that way.

[Miffymog]

5 hours ago, Orion said:

 

If money were no object, I would teach for free, but I would screen my students. It has nothing to do with one's social standing but their potential to have insight. I understand that money is real and it's also a form of energy. When we pay for a service (like a teaching), it's trading energy (teachings) for energy (money). At some point though it becomes a bit much... like when teachers are obviously gouging students in order to pad their luxury lifestyles.

 

When I pay a teacher, if my funds are going toward their further development on the path, which in turn becomes of benefit to everyone, then I am okay with that, within reason. Some people are just selfish and have no ethics. They think their teachings are solid gold and they don't care if their students live in poverty in order to learn them.

 

To me, a teacher who is self-realized will have a compassionate nature and have workarounds for this. Maybe we can do an exchange. Maybe I can do grunt work for them for a while. Or maybe they just see that I'm worth it and will teach me because the higher power (or whatever you want to call it) is directing them to teach me. I've met people like that... who are so difficult, but I know they MUST know something I know and therefore I should stick around. But there are a lot of teachers out there who don't look beyond the material and see those kinds of virtues. They think about their lives, their immediate gain... there's no understanding of Source and universal regeneration.

 

I find that the more generous I am, the more I am given to, even if it's not from the person I just gave to. Some other aspect of life comes through. Giving and receiving are part of the same channel. Denying one is denying both. Too bad capitalism doesn't see it that way.

 

Just to say that I've never thought of money as a form of energy before - but now you mention it, I completely agree.

 

 

[C T]

Not only is money a vivid form of energy, it usually takes on a prevalently wrathful appearance. Hard to subjugate, thats why so much challenges stubbornly exist around it. 

[Orion]

12 hours ago, C T said:

Not only is money a vivid form of energy, it usually takes on a prevalently wrathful appearance. Hard to subjugate, thats why so much challenges stubbornly exist around it. 

 

It's because money has destroyed so many lives and caused so much suffering over the years that as an energy form it is very loaded. I feel like even when people can afford something, involving money as the energy exchange immediately downgrades whatever process is about to happen. It's a low vibration energy.

 

That's why when people can, it may be worthwhile to try to exchange in other ways, or rely on Source to replenish them.

[windwalker]

32 minutes ago, Orion said:

 

It's because money has destroyed so many lives and caused so much suffering over the years that as an energy form it is very loaded. I feel like even when people can afford something, involving money as the energy exchange immediately downgrades whatever process is about to happen. It's a low vibration energy.

 

That's why when people can, it may be worthwhile to try to exchange in other ways, or rely on Source to replenish them.

 

Totally agree,  in order to help all of humankind from this dangerous scourge I will be setting up an account that they can get rid of their evil money in.

 

Let's keep those good vibrations happening.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2018 by windwalker

[Orion]

20 hours ago, windwalker said:

 

Totally agree,  in order to help all of humankind from this dangerous scourge I will be setting up an account that they can get rid of their evil money in.

 

Let's keep those good vibrations happening

 

And the award for missing the point goes to...

 

[Bud Jetsun]

Money is a human mind construct and all its appearance of energy arises from what attention consciousness donates towards manifesting it having energy.  The sun still shines, flowers still bloom, birds still fly and fish still swim with or without humans choosing to construct and persist money related beliefs and customs or not. 

 

Teacher can manifest charging any price and manifest having people pay it or not pay it as they choose to manifest. Student can manifest paying whatever they like or not paying whatever they like.  

 

Neither of those conditions is related to the quality of enriching experience the beings choose to manifest in Now. 

 

When money was a pursuit, it always fled.  Through giving freely there's always exactly the right amount.  It is a gift for the teacher to receive and equally a gift for the student to pay. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited March 6, 2018 by Bud Jetsun

[MooNiNite]

I think Wang Liping is a good mention for this thread.

[Wayfarer]

I taught for a few years before moving abroad.  I asked that we all split the costs of hiring the hall, even so, people wanted to pay more. If I were to then think, no, I don't want any money - that's not accepting what the Way puts before me.  So, when I got extra I put it into a group pot to buy teas and things.  

 

People like to say thanks by giving.  And although it wasn't relevant to me at the time, it would be now... if I was to teach an hour of Taoism, I would be missing out on an hour of earning money - and while it may be very "enlightened" to not charge, the cold hard facts are that I have bills to pay and a family to feed.  

 

It's a bit foolish to think that a person who doesn't charge must be more of a "sage" than one who does.  Should a teacher wish to exploit people that comes from the same place, as one who fears asking for money.  Either one could be a great teacher.  You either go or you do not.  That's pretty much the end of it

Edited June 25, 2018 by Wayfarer

[Starjumper]

11 hours ago, once.yin.once.yang said:

of course taking money for the Sacred Knowledge is wrong.

 

What do you mean by knowledge.  If it's verbal BS then it is indeed worthless, if it's a meditation/energy system that may get some rare individual there then it's worth a lot.  Even if a person doesn't achieve celestial immortal, and it will probably slip out of the grasp of whoever consciously reaches for it, those systems are still damn good for cultivating longevity (Earthly immortal) and a bunch of other very valuable stuff.

 

Quote

... whomever takes a penny for the knowledge of immortality will be punished.

 

Again, it depends on what you mean by knowledge, but I say bullshit!  My teacher said to NEVER teach for free, and he became an ascended master (immortal).

Edited June 25, 2018 by Starjumper

[once.yin.once.yang]

7 hours ago, Starjumper said:

If it's verbal BS then it is indeed worthless

Yes, I mean all of so called "lectures", "courses", "retreats" and "transmission of Taoist wisdom" given to heterogeneous audience in different levels of understanding and spiritual development.

Sometimes those kind of gatherings can even lead astray a prospective talented student. 

 

7 hours ago, Starjumper said:

meditation/energy system

....and most importantly the inner path and what is the right mode to deal when the first signs of successful cultivation take place. IMHO this can be transmitted only tête à tête and there is no amount of money equal to the right method.

[Miffymog]

9 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

When you’re good at something, never do it for free.

 

It is highly subjective about how good someone is though as we have seen with some people who call themselves good such as people who take a weekend seminar and suddenly also believe they are masters.

 

 

That's a bit black and white for me. Yes, if I'm good at my profession, then I want to be paid a commensurate salary.

 

But I think there is much benefit in volunteering some of your skills and talents for free.

[Miffymog]

There have been a lot times in my past when I have shared my skills and knowledge without any payment or exchange. I just helped those who were struggling because they were.

Actually, when you help people who are struggling, they are often not in a position to repay you in any way, except maybe with gratitude. So, is just gratitude sufficient?

[Starjumper]

19 hours ago, Starjumper said:

My teacher said to never teach for free.

 

Actually I have disobeyed my teacher and taught for free.  When I lived in town in Vilcabamba I volunteered to teach chi kung to the anciános (ancient ones) at a center that had been set up just for them where they could come for free and get some bread and soup, do some hobbies, like drawing or sudoku, and do some exercising; and I was the exercise teacher.

 

Here in the Valley of Longevity and one of the five official Shangri Las of the world, these people are still out working on their farms when they are in their nineties and over 100.  I had a worker here who was in his upper 80s, and he worked more and harder than most Northerners age thirty.

 

They were all beautiful people, not stained by the modern age and technology, and they really loved the chi kung and were very kind and grateful.  I really liked interacting with them and helping them get some good exercise.  Here's a video I just edited recently for my website home page, in the last half you can see an example of one of those practice sessions and see how wonderful the people were:

 

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Starjumper

[Wayfarer]

That's a lovely video Steve, I have watched it before and it was good to be reminded of it.  Looks like a great centre you have built up.

 

Best of luck,

 

Heath

[Starjumper]

Thanks Heath, the video was longer before but I shortened it quite a lot.  There are a lot more trees and bushes in the view now than in that video because we've planted over 9000 trees and don't use the practice of burning in order to clear the land.

 

In order to make it more affordable for some people I've added a volunteer opportunity link to the services page:

 

http://www.taohermitage.com/services.html

Edited June 27, 2018 by Starjumper

[dionysiac]

11 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

That's a lovely video Steve, I have watched it before and it was good to be reminded of it.  Looks like a great centre you have built up.

 

Best of luck,

 

Heath

 

Starjumper is a perfect example of why those who seek truth should be wary of a self proclaimed “master” that makes a living from selling their cult of personailty/brand.

It’s not a coincidence that those who suddenly appear so quickly to defend the practice of exchanging money for salvation often seem to have their own hand in the cookie jar.

 

[Starjumper]

6 hours ago, dionysiac said:

Starjumper is a perfect example of why those who seek truth should be wary of a self proclaimed “master” that makes a living from selling their cult of personailty/brand.

It’s not a coincidence that those who suddenly appear so quickly to defend the practice of exchanging money for salvation often seem to have their own hand in the cookie jar.

 

Hey, what do you know, what makes you think I'm not a master?  I have a certificate that says I'm a master on it.  It's a nice certificate, printed on heavy stock, with gold around the edges, and I have it framed in my lecture room.  I had to go to a teacher training retreat for seven days to get that certificate, it's a newly developed system called "Tai Chi for Enlightenment", so now I'm a certified master of Tai Chi for Enlightenment.  Do you think I would lie about such a thing!?!?  I can post a picture of my certificate if you insist!

 

The seven day retreat cost me almost $3000, it was in a luxury setting and the food was excellent, including caviar and roast duck and other delectable delicacies.  We were required to do Tai Chi for a full twenty minutes each day, and I didn't really like that stupid stuff, but we had to do it to get the diploma; most of the rest of the time was taken up by lecture/class time, and time spent lounging around the heated pool.  Then there were martial arts movies in the evening, and I learned a lot about kung fu by watching those movies, I'm thinking of teaching that too and calling myself a kung fu master, but that's for later.  Anyway, now I know all about enlightenment and I know a lot of people will pay well to know the truth about enlightenment, so I'm charging accordingly and am really enjoying the nice lifestyle that it's providing.

 

I don't see anything wrong with that, do you dionysiac?  I mean, I payed for it! and took a whole week of my time to get that stupid diploma.  It looks nice hanging on the wall in my lecture hall though.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Starjumper

[liminal_luke]

I`ve read here that teachers should always teach for free and that they should never teach for free.  Personally, I think they should do what they want.  Why load ourselves down with so many rules?

 

What`s important, it seems to me, is being clear with oneself.  If you`re a teacher, don`t teach for free if you`re gonna resent not getting paid.  If you`re a student, don`t pay for a course if you`re gonna resent being charged.

[dionysiac]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

Hey, what do you know, what makes you think I'm not a master?  I have a certificate that says I'm a master on it.  It's a nice certificate, printed on heavy stock, with gold around the edges, and I have it framed in my lecture room.  I had to go to a teacher training retreat for seven days to get that certificate, it's a newly developed system called "Tai Chi for Enlightenment", so now I'm a certified master of Tai Chi for Enlightenment.  Do you think I would lie about such a thing!?!?  I can post a picture of my certificate if you insist!

 

The seven day retreat cost me almost $3000, it was in a luxury setting and the food was excellent, including caviar and roast duck and other delectable delicacies.  We were required to do Tai Chi for a full twenty minutes each day, and I didn't really like that stupid stuff, but we had to do it to get the diploma; most of the rest of the time was taken up by lecture/class time, and time spent lounging around the heated pool.  Then there were martial arts movies in the evening, and I learned a lot about kung fu by watching those movies, I'm thinking of teaching that too and calling myself a kung fu master, but that's for later.  Anyway, now I know all about enlightenment and I know a lot of people will pay well to know the truth about enlightenment, so I'm charging accordingly and am really enjoying the nice lifestyle that it's providing.

 

I don't see anything wrong with that, do you dionysiac?  I mean, I payed for it! and took a whole week of my time to get that stupid diploma.  It looks nice hanging on the wall in my lecture hall though.

 

 

Isn’t the topic of this discussion, at least partially, the issue concerning the existence of those who exploit the spiritual yearning of others in order to obtain the capital that underwrites their own elevated lifestyle?

 

I take the issue seriously enough to be honest about it.

[Cheshire Cat]

C. O. I. 

It stands for Conflict of interests.

 

A paid teacher in the spiritual ground (where there are no restrictions, no rules, no categories) is incentivized to:

-be as exclusive as possible;

-control and limit the making of new teachers out of his disciples;

-make up new teachings to generate a new income;

-set up a personality cult;

-accept even toxic people in the group of students ;

-never to admit of being wrong;

-eventually lie about his/her past and the teachings;

-not to teach the most advanced stuff (if present) to set himself/herself apart;

-more

 

Idc if it's traditional to get paid. I believe that the genuine approach is to teach the people you love for free. 

If there's some quality in what you teach, your students will adjust things for you be repaid of your kindness. 

 

 

 

[Wayfarer]

Life's not that simple.  When you go to teach you have to pay to use the facilities.  People usually want tea and biscuits.  After a while they might bring their own... If you are the type of teacher that plans ahead then you might be giving out printouts etc.  Sure, if you're stitching people up that's different.  I don't see too many rich spiritual teachers.  Sure, Mooji maybe.  But I doubt it.  People pay for books, why not pay for face-to-face chances to get your questions answered.  It's a service at the end of the day.  People pay it or they don't.  It has nothing to do with what is being offered, or a supposed conflict of interest.

 

I'm sure Buddha didn't pay for building a temple, or for the food that he was eating; someone gave it him, he wasn't earning money.  So, what's the difference?

 

Really, what needs to change is our idea of a spiritual teacher.  Oh, they are soooo enlightened why should we pay?  They're are charging us for something they got free etc?  Yes, go get it for yourself.

 

Do you go to a qigong class and think I shouldn't pay?  Do you learn to drive and tell the teacher - I'm not paying you because you should be making the roads a safer place, and that's enough of an exchange?  Come on!

 

People go to a spiritual teacher for a stack of reasons they might have to pay a therapist for; dealing with anger, wanting more calmness in their life, learning meditation techniques and so on.  

 

And no.  You don't have to allow toxic people into your group.  You do what's right for the group.  You speak to these people and if they don't like it you tell them to go - or do you think you are too enlightened for that?

 

It comes down to what you care about - if that's what other people think, then maybe you shouldn't be teaching.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, dionysiac said:

the issue concerning the existence of those who exploit the spiritual yearning of others in order to obtain the capital that underwrites their own elevated lifestyle?

what seems to be the problem?

[Starjumper]

10 hours ago, dionysiac said:

I take the issue seriously enough to be honest about it.

 

Honesty is important to you then, that's cute, but only about things that are important to you?  Yesterday you were some kind of big expert on what I'm all about.  Do you think your little judgmental tantrum was honest, to yourself, to anybody?

 

https://youtu.be/bHrqrlZYsDA