Non Neidan methods in Daoist meditation

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I think it would be interesting to start a thread about methods outside of Neidan which also exist in Daoism and how they can be of benefit to us and our larger society.

Obviously this is a very big field and there are so many practices that we couldn't get around to discussing them all, but I would like to open up the thread with some interesting ideas from Xiao Dao Zang which were later incorporated by Pang Ming Laoshi into his Zhineng Qigong system.

 

Xiao Dao Zang and "Swallowing Qi:"

 

So the small Daoist canon has a very long section on various methods of "swallowing Qi" in early Daoism.  They are really varied, all the way from embryonic breathing, the visualizing various colours entering the body and going to the vital organs, to swallowing saliva and imagining it moving to various parts of the body.   Fu Qi methods are basically early Daoist breathing methods with some visualizations which are meant to nourish the human being with oxygen and bodily fluid.   They can be a little stiff and hard to understand if you are only going by the texts in the Daoist Canon, but Pang Ming Laoshi explained it very well in a talk he gave in the 1990s when he said that when you drink water or eat any food, you can use you mind to observe the food, imagine its nutriative quality,  chew and mix with the saliva, swallow, and direct the food to the stomach with the mind.   How clearly and deeply you can imagine it is how much benefit this type of practice can give you.   He argued that most people who get sick don't suffer from lack of nutrition, but rather suffer from their bad habits, so activating the mind during eating can actually help our bodies be more active during the digestion process and gives us greater benefit from our food.  This is a very good modern way of looking at Fu qi practice.   Hu Haiya also once said "Qi gong is a snack and a cup of tea," which I believe has the same meaning.

 

These kind of Daoist energy methods are things that are very easy to practice all the time, as long as we remember to do them and don't lose our connection to our bodies.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing other people sharing their methods, although lets please not talk about Nei Dan on this thread, since there are plenty of other threads discussing that subject  :) :)

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Nice thread! I like this, especially since it opens up for looking at daily life as energy in work and increasing our role as active, conscious agents. Pretty powerful stuff. I'm not in neidan so for me this kind of topic is refreshing!

Procetcing and developing our energy, knowledge, body, time, effort. I see all that as qigong in a way. Taking the time to use stuff efficiently, especially time and effort.

The viewpoint you open up for also extends over into basic feng shui ideas, as well as interaction, besides physical development and nutrition. Seeing how things affect and interplay with us and others, its a good way to build a strong foundation.

 

I read somewhere that qigong was for rich people, because if you need to worry about good food, good sleep and and a reasonably harmonious life, what good will putting precious time in energy work do for you? When i say rich that doesnt mean fat stack of papers rich, but rich enough for food, sleep and shelter not to be an everyday maybe. Rich enough you know?

So its a good investment of time-energy in an already sound investment environment.

 

EDIT

As far as visualization goes i've started considering it an introductory stage to understanding mechanisms. Visualization is a part of making the process understandable, you start to notice differences from time to time, small variations and such. Intent plays a big role as does the actual chemistry of nourishment for instance. Unifying them also means understanding to see how it fits together. Visualization helps, you make the act of eating, digesting etc concrete and real.

Visualization is a catlyst for strenghtening the awareness and bond imho, it opens up for feeling things and observing variations. Creating a frame of reference as it were...

Edited February 12, 2017 by Rocky Lionmouth

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A good thread. I tried to do some meditations with channels visualization some about 10 years ago. Not sure it was a Taoist line, closer to Tibet Bon or like this. I can say that these methods did not give any significant results, this was the reason I stopped after about a year. In this case I think that methods that use our brains are useful more for brain with its fantasies, but not the body.

What do you think?

And from my opinion following such visualization can cause problems with mind.

Rgrds, Ilya

[dwai]

"Swallowing qi" is advice my teacher gave me too in the intermediate stages of learning tai chi.

 

Look into the horizon, close your eyes slowly, imagine you have pulled the entire universe into your self with your eyes. Now send that feeling down towards your lower dan tien. Swallow gently as if you are swallowing the universe itself and dropping into the LDT.

 

There were many similar techniques we could use to aid in cultivation...

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

A good thread. I tried to do some meditations with channels visualization some about 10 years ago. Not sure it was a Taoist line, closer to Tibet Bon or like this. I can say that these methods did not give any significant results, this was the reason I stopped after about a year. In this case I think that methods that use our brains are useful more for brain with its fantasies, but not the body.

What do you think?

And from my opinion following such visualization can cause problems with mind.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

i agree visualization is somewhat dangerous and you need to have someone to supervise your practice, because it is easy to make mistakes.  Even in small Dao Zang, it says in part that during practice it is normal to pee blood at first on some techniques!!  That is why I think Nei Dan is a superior technique, but we can also say that modern Qi gong is like a combination of Fu Qi, visulization, and Dan Dao, but also very safe for modern people to practice, so I like Qi gong too!!

[Rara]

Would you say the mind-muscle connection is a similar practice?

 

For example, these days if I train, say pushups or planks, I focus a lot on breath and an visualising the muscles at work. With that, I feel them "pump" and I would say that results are more visible now than ever.

 

When I was younger, I would go to the gym more, do more and be one of those types... training for vanity, just because. But I would show up when I didn't really want to be there and would even lower weights and reps in order to just say "hey, I showed up at least". It was a fashion statement more than a decebt exercise plan. Funny, I put on 10 lbs of fat that year.

 

These days I do much, much less...in fact, I will barely touch a weight. But when I exercise, it will be 45 mins, 4 strength exercises max, done well, slowly and how I described above. I'm convinced that it's the mindset that is doing the work...the body just follows like a shadow.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I think they are connected, but it is important to look at what the goals of the practice are.  In terms of Daoist ideas, the body should be made healthy from the inside rather than from the outside, so strength practices in classical Daoism are not very common.  Usually Daoists use the mind to recognize the universe inside the body, rather than trying to affect the outside world.

[Rara]

I think they are connected, but it is important to look at what the goals of the practice are. In terms of Daoist ideas, the body should be made healthy from the inside rather than from the outside, so strength practices in classical Daoism are not very common. Usually Daoists use the mind to recognize the universe inside the body, rather than trying to affect the outside world.

Sure...but isn't it interchangeable? A healthy interior is absolutely essential but wouldn't physical exercise accompany it? Of course there's Tai Chi which is also strengthening. Or are you talking further back than then?

 

Edit: Though I do see every point in what you're saying in regards to training for "vanity"...the outside world etc etc

Edited February 14, 2017 by Rara