Defining the Left and Right

[Miffymog]

The history record tells the truth. Who dropped atomic bombs? hmmmmmm? who did the holocaust? HMMMMM? Oh I forgot the holocaust never happened what am I thinking?

 

Curiously enough, as long as you were of the right race, Hitler was quite left wing in many ways. He put a massive amount of effort into increasing the well-being of workers and their rights. He also had a very socialist view on sharing out the wealth, which he did do effectively. There are reasons he gained popularity amongst the people.

[blackstar212]

Curiously enough, as long as you were of the right race, Hitler was quite left wing in many ways. He put a massive amount of effort into increasing the well-being of workers and their rights. He also had a very socialist view on sharing out the wealth, which he did do effectively. There are reasons he gained popularity amongst the people.

This is exactly what I am talking about. A capitalist who believed in private ownership and business being called left. That is the trick and falsehood being fed to everyone.

 

You have individualists vs individualists calling each other left and right the propaganda machine is so huge now it will be almost impossible to overcome.

[Brian]

How about just a driver's license or a passport?

Constitution empowers each State to address election issues in its own way but gives Congress authority to pass laws to alter these regulations with regards to Congressional elections. For the selection of Electors for the Presidential election, the Congress may specify the time and date when Electors are picked by the States for the Electoral College but may not legislate the manner in which the States pick those Electors. This means State legislative bodies have wide latitude over the entire Presidential selection process within their State, right up to the point at which the Electors are named to the Electoral College itself.

 

There are some very narrow restrictions (such as not requiring a test to be passed or a tax to be paid) but the individual States generally have both the right and the responsibility to select Electors for the Presidential selection process in their own manner.

[Brian]

The history record tells the truth. Who dropped atomic bombs? hmmmmmm? who did the holocaust? HMMMMM? Oh I forgot the holocaust never happened what am I thinking?

Progressives in the US dropped the atomic bombs, just as Progressives in the US embraced Lenin and Stalin and Hitler and Mao and Ho Chi Min and Castro and Che and Chavez. The Holocaust clearly happened (although there seems to be significant uncertainty as to the numbers involved) just as The Ukrainians and Chinese were clearly starved (again, with uncertainty as to the numbers involved).

 

It seems silly to claim post facto that someone espousing a particular ideology was really a member of the exact opposite camp every time that ideology leads to horrific outcomes. It would seem wiser, I think, to begin at some point to question whether this pattern of horrific outcomes might be indicative of a systemic problem with the underlying ideology.

[blackstar212]

Progressives in the US dropped the atomic bombs, just as Progressives in the US embraced Lenin and Stalin and Hitler and Mao and Ho Chi Min and Castro and Che and Chavez. The Holocaust clearly happened (although there seems to be significant uncertainty as to the numbers involved) just as The Ukrainians and Chinese were clearly starved (again, with uncertainty as to the numbers involved).

 

It seems silly to claim post facto that someone espousing a particular ideology was really a member of the exact opposite camp every time that ideology leads to horrific outcomes. It would seem wiser, I think, to begin at some point to question whether this pattern of horrific outcomes might be indicative of a systemic problem with the underlying ideology.

Ok. So then right now sitting in charge of our country are they progressives or conservatives in charge?

 

We are currently dominated by Republicans are they progressives?

[Miffymog]

You have individualists vs individualists calling each other left and right the propaganda machine is so huge now it will be almost impossible to overcome.

 

 

hmmmm - yes!

[Brian]

Ok. So then right now sitting in charge of our country are they progressives or conservatives in charge?

 

We are currently dominated by Republicans are they progressives?

More Republicans are progressives than conservatives but limited-government rule-of-law Constitutionalism is gaining in popularity. Most people don't really understand the principles involved (as is evident within this very thread) but it actually leads in the direction you say you value -- least government, least intrusion, least regulation, etc.

[windwalker]

 

 

Ok. So then right now sitting in charge of our country are they progressives or conservatives in charge?

 

We are currently dominated by Republicans are they progressives? 

 

Neither which is why both sides are fighting against the current administration.

The biggest threat IMO will come from the GOP.

 

"Trump"  has assembled a team some of which he doesn't agree with but who are proven in what ever fields 

they come from. Most in the gov. today are only proven in being able to stay in gov...which is not really saying much. 

as the criteria for accountability is not the same.

 

The fact he may not agree with some of his team speaks to the fact that he looks at results and wants people who can and do get things done....hes not an ideologue. 

 

He's presented a new direction for the US. one which I support apparently many others do also 

he won the election. 

 

 

 

 

  . 

Edited February 17, 2017 by windwalker

[blackstar212]

More Republicans are progressives than conservatives but limited-government rule-of-law Constitutionalism is gaining in popularity. Most people don't really understand the principles involved (as is evident within this very thread) but it actually leads in the direction you say you value -- least government, least intrusion, least regulation, etc.

Very strange how we see the same world in such opposite ways. I see most as conservative. It is interesting to say the least.

 

Though I think some of the end game we agree upon.

[MooNiNite]

You seem unable to grasp that I am not a Trump supporter despite me repeatedly spelling it out for you in great detail. I guess anyone who doesn't consider the man #literallyhitler must be a sycophantic sociopath.

Liberals are quick to call him a nazi, and also quick to accuse him of being too friendly with Russia,

 

Not once connecting the dots that the Russians defeated the nazis..

 

I have never considered liberals as very logical though. 

[Brian]

Very strange how we see the same world in such opposite ways. I see most as conservative. It is interesting to say the least.

 

Though I think some of the end game we agree upon.

How would you define "conservative?"

 

I think you are right about a common vision for the desired eventual state of humanity -- and I think we agree that education is the path to it.

[blackstar212]

How would you define "conservative?"

 

I think you are right about a common vision for the desired eventual state of humanity -- and I think we agree that education is the path to it.

Well I am not sure how to define it except they like things to stay the same.

 

Can you give me a list of "conservative" rule of law constitutionalists that are currently in government trying to make the US in that vision?

Edited February 17, 2017 by blackstar212

[Miffymog]

Well I am not sure how to define it except they like things to stay the same.

 

Can you give me a list of "conservative" rule of law constitutionalists that are currently in government trying to make the US in that vision?

 

 

not found this all that easy to answer

 

In the UK

 

Labour / Left wing

Higher tax => more money for social services such as well fare and NHS

 

Conservative /  Right wing

Lower tax => less of a financial strain on people and businesses

[blackstar212]

not found this all that easy to answer

 

In the UK

 

Labour / Left wing

Higher tax => more money for social services such as well fare and NHS

 

Conservative /  Right wing

Lower tax => less of a financial strain on people and businesses

I tried looking up Rule of law constitutionalists in government and nothing comes up so I figured I would ask Brian if he can tell me these politicians.

[cold]

Labels don't often lead to knowledge nor understanding, but frequently to division.

Us versus them.

I for one defy easy definition.

[MooNiNite]

Left: 

-Racism is a huge issue in the USA.

-Minorities should receive college discounts

-High taxes dont matter, and the money goes towards a good cause.

-We should give 38 billion to Israel.

-Funding the same groups that were responsible for 9/11 is OK.

-We need to be aggressive towards Russia.

-Obama did a good job.

-Obamacare helps poor people. 

 

Overall: More government regulation and government funding is good. We can trust the government to protect us and spend our money wisely and choose which companies to invest in and help. 

 

Right

-Obama spent 10 trillion dollars and got our country nowhere.

-The war in the middle east is a huge waste and disaster.

-Lower taxes promotes economic growth.

-Lower taxes is better for the people.

-documented workers is a better choice than illegal workers.

-Obamacare is a huge disaster and premiums are increasing 80%.

-No one can afford Obamacare.

-Corporate powers and the media influence the government and it is costing people severely. 

 

overall: Less government intervention, funding, and taxes promotes economic growth and freedom. 

[blackstar212]

Left: 

-Racism is a huge issue in the USA.

-Minorities should receive college discounts

-High taxes dont matter, and the money goes towards a good cause.

-We should give 38 billion to Israel.

-Funding the same groups that were responsible for 9/11 is OK.

-We need to be aggressive towards Russia.

-Obama did a good job.

-Obamacare helps poor people. 

 

Overall: More government regulation and government funding is good. We can trust the government to protect us and spend our money wisely and choose which companies to invest in and help. 

 

Right

-Obama spent 10 trillion dollars and got our country nowhere.

-The war in the middle east is a huge waste and disaster.

-Lower taxes promotes economic growth.

-Lower taxes is better for the people.

-documented workers is a better choice than illegal workers.

-Obamacare is a huge disaster and premiums are increasing 80%.

-No one can afford Obamacare.

-Corporate powers and the media influence the government and it is costing people severely. 

 

overall: Less government intervention, funding, and taxes promotes economic growth and freedom.

Then the entire US government is left in your opinion and so is Trump. He is continuing the war in the middle east which a Republican started and the Democrats have continued. He has powerful corporations he hired powerful corporation ceo's???

[cold]

-Yes, racism is a problem.

 

-College costs or post secondary education costs are to high for average American regardless of race creed or ethnic origin.

 

-Current tax structure regressive, favors rich, tax rates and tax expenditures matter.

 

-We shouldn't give anything to anyone. No free lunches, discounted lunches ok.

 

-Funding special interest groups whether perceived friend(s) or foe of our foe(s), is unacceptable.

(Again no free lunches. Teach a person(s) to fish, farm, be productive should be long term goal.

 

- Rich or poor we all require health care and it has to be paid for. Keeping the poor out of emergency rooms through preventive care reaps tremendous cost savings.

 

-We should be an example of a peaceful productive society to promote same in other areas of the world.

(Defense not offense, trust in GOD, YAWEH, ALLALH, what ever but tie your camel, pen the goats horses etc. up at night.)

 

-All leaders are human and therefore both good and bad, history has shown that. 

 

-Waste is rampant and as technology progresses so will waste. Government, industry, or personal, waste is human nature.

(My great grandparents farmed and ate almost the entire animal... pickled pigs feet, sweetbreads (thymus pancreas) ox tail soup etc. less than perfect fruit vegetables canned or cooked for household consumption.)

 

- War is terrible and should be avoided if at all possible.

(But it can't always be avoided, Japans attack on Pearl Harbor for example.)

 

- Progressive taxes are the fairest, spend more pay more in taxes.

 

- Cheap food has been possible only thru workers from outside the USA.

[Brian]

Well I am not sure how to define it except they like things to stay the same.

 

Can you give me a list of "conservative" rule of law constitutionalists that are currently in government trying to make the US in that vision?

 

 

I tried looking up Rule of law constitutionalists in government and nothing comes up so I figured I would ask Brian if he can tell me these politicians.

You are a resident of the State of Ohio so start here:

https://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/upload/publications/election/Constitution.pdf

 

Read an understand your State Constitution -- this is "the law of the land" for the State of Ohio, the set of rules and list of powers the citizens of the sovereign State of Ohio have given to a limited governmental institution on their behalf. These authorities, powers and rights do not originate with the government and get handed down to the people but the other way around.

 

Next, read and understand the Constitution of the United States. You can find it in many places and formats but here's one of them: <link> Don't say "Oh, I read that one day in high school in a history class" because that isn't good enough. (Ask me why I say that?) Be sure to read each of the ratified Amendments to the Constitution, too. One of the things contained in the US Constitution is an enumeration of powers. This is critical because it lists a specific set of authorities delegated to the central government by the individual States and ratified by the citizens of those States. These authorities, powers and rights do not originate with the government and get handed down to the people but the other way around.

 

Any role or authority not specifically granted to the central government by the Constitution itself or by one of the specific Amendments thereto is not delegated to the central government. If that role or authority is specifically granted to an individual State by its own Constitution then that role or authority is delegated to the State government. If that role or authority is not specifically granted to the central government nor to the State then that role or authority is retained by the sovereign individual citizens of those States.

 

These documents mean exactly what they say.

 

At each level of government (and within each as divided and distributed according to the rules established for them), specific regulations and procedural documents are established to operationalize these roles and authorities. One of the primary responsibilities of the Courts is to adjudicate at the request of damaged plaintiffs and determine whether these operational documents and procedures are consistent with the principal documents as they are written and as their language was intended by those who composed them. If situations have changed or the will of the citizens have changed such that the rules as written are consistent with those foundational documents but no longer meet the needs of the civil society then it is appropriate for the relevant legislative body to alter those rules in accordance with the legal processes or, if the desired change would not be consistent with those foundational documents, to amend those foundational documents in accordance with the legal processes to delegate the role or authority needed to affect such a change in the rules.

 

This make sense?

 

Now, as to the specific question you asked -- who are some examples of current office holders? Well, Justice Scalia would have been a great example in the Judicial Branch but he is no longer with us. Justice Thomas isn't bad, though; I'd recommend reading some of their opinions from the bench. In the Senate, I would suggest that Mike Lee, Ted Cruz and Rand Paul are pretty good examples and that Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer are good counter-examples. In the House, I would offer Louie Gohmert on the one hand and Debbie Wasserman Schultz as good comparisons. In the State of Ohio, I would suggest contrasting Representative Jim Jordan with Representative Marcy Kaptur to see the stark difference in philosophies which exist between the two. None of these people would I consider idealized examples but they should help to illustrate the relevant philosophies.

 

This help?

[MooNiNite]

Then the entire US government is left in your opinion and so is Trump. He is continuing the war in the middle east which a Republican started and the Democrats have continued. He has powerful corporations he hired powerful corporation ceo's???

 

You're confused.

[MooNiNite]

-Yes, racism is a problem.

 

-College costs or post secondary education costs are to high for average American regardless of race creed or ethnic origin.

 

-Current tax structure regressive, favors rich, tax rates and tax expenditures matter.

 

-We shouldn't give anything to anyone. No free lunches, discounted lunches ok.

 

-Funding special interest groups whether perceived friend(s) or foe of our foe(s), is unacceptable.

(Again no free lunches. Teach a person(s) to fish, farm, be productive should be long term goal.

 

- Rich or poor we all require health care and it has to be paid for. Keeping the poor out of emergency rooms through preventive care reaps tremendous cost savings.

 

-We should be an example of a peaceful productive society to promote same in other areas of the world.

(Defense not offense, trust in GOD, YAWEH, ALLALH, what ever but tie your camel, pen the goats horses etc. up at night.)

 

-All leaders are human and therefore both good and bad, history has shown that. 

 

-Waste is rampant and as technology progresses so will waste. Government, industry, or personal, waste is human nature.

(My great grandparents farmed and ate almost the entire animal... pickled pigs feet, sweetbreads (thymus pancreas) ox tail soup etc. less than perfect fruit vegetables canned or cooked for household consumption.)

 

- War is terrible and should be avoided if at all possible.

(But it can't always be avoided, Japans attack on Pearl Harbor for example.)

 

- Progressive taxes are the fairest, spend more pay more in taxes.

 

- Cheap food has been possible only thru workers from outside the USA.

 

we see things very differently.

[cold]

No doubt.

 

I will see things differently each and every day, until I don't.

 

I don't know for sure but I'm hoping one day I will I look at things from both sides and I will be relieved .

[Marblehead]

No doubt.

 

I will see things differently each and every day, until I don't.

 

I don't know for sure but I'm hoping one day I will I look at things from both sides and I will be relieved .

 

Yep,  Viewing things from different perspectives gives us a wider range of vision.  Fewer people can sneak up on us.

[zerostao]

z

Edited February 20, 2018 by zerostao

[blackstar212]

 

 

You are a resident of the State of Ohio so start here:

https://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/upload/publications/election/Constitution.pdf

 

Read an understand your State Constitution -- this is "the law of the land" for the State of Ohio, the set of rules and list of powers the citizens of the sovereign State of Ohio have given to a limited governmental institution on their behalf. These authorities, powers and rights do not originate with the government and get handed down to the people but the other way around.

 

Next, read and understand the Constitution of the United States. You can find it in many places and formats but here's one of them: <link> Don't say "Oh, I read that one day in high school in a history class" because that isn't good enough. (Ask me why I say that?) Be sure to read each of the ratified Amendments to the Constitution, too. One of the things contained in the US Constitution is an enumeration of powers. This is critical because it lists a specific set of authorities delegated to the central government by the individual States and ratified by the citizens of those States. These authorities, powers and rights do not originate with the government and get handed down to the people but the other way around.

 

Any role or authority not specifically granted to the central government by the Constitution itself or by one of the specific Amendments thereto is not delegated to the central government. If that role or authority is specifically granted to an individual State by its own Constitution then that role or authority is delegated to the State government. If that role or authority is not specifically granted to the central government nor to the State then that role or authority is retained by the sovereign individual citizens of those States.

 

These documents mean exactly what they say.

 

At each level of government (and within each as divided and distributed according to the rules established for them), specific regulations and procedural documents are established to operationalize these roles and authorities. One of the primary responsibilities of the Courts is to adjudicate at the request of damaged plaintiffs and determine whether these operational documents and procedures are consistent with the principal documents as they are written and as their language was intended by those who composed them. If situations have changed or the will of the citizens have changed such that the rules as written are consistent with those foundational documents but no longer meet the needs of the civil society then it is appropriate for the relevant legislative body to alter those rules in accordance with the legal processes or, if the desired change would not be consistent with those foundational documents, to amend those foundational documents in accordance with the legal processes to delegate the role or authority needed to affect such a change in the rules.

 

This make sense?

 

Now, as to the specific question you asked -- who are some examples of current office holders? Well, Justice Scalia would have been a great example in the Judicial Branch but he is no longer with us. Justice Thomas isn't bad, though; I'd recommend reading some of their opinions from the bench. In the Senate, I would suggest that Mike Lee, Ted Cruz and Rand Paul are pretty good examples and that Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer are good counter-examples. In the House, I would offer Louie Gohmert on the one hand and Debbie Wasserman Schultz as good comparisons. In the State of Ohio, I would suggest contrasting Representative Jim Jordan with Representative Marcy Kaptur to see the stark difference in philosophies which exist between the two. None of these people would I consider idealized examples but they should help to illustrate the relevant philosophies.

 

This help?

Well I am not sure yet but I do appreciate your post and will read the documents included. I was hoping for a list of right wing politicians at least that you believe are rule of law candidates. I have already said I see little difference in bill Clinton Obama and Bush. All right wingers to me.