Defining the Left and Right

[Aetherous]

Trunk, you're not doing very well bridging the gap by laughing.

[Marblehead]

Sometimes we laugh to keep from crying.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Interesting discussion - at least certain parts of it.

 

It has been said that the right supports Anarchism. I don't agree, though it may look like that sometimes. But their preference is the police state, really.

 

True Anarchists have little use for politics. At least in the ordinary sense.

 

Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu as right wingers? Gimme a break.

 

[Marblehead]

Anarchism, I think, cannot be defined as either left or right.  And I agree, the right does not support Anarchism.  And I would likely have to agree that it supports the police state.  But then, the left supports the socialist state and that is a police state as well, especially if it is taken toward Communism.

 

Philosophically, I am a Conservative so that leans me more toward the right than the left.

 

Personally, I consider both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu to have been Conservatives.  In my mind that would lean them to the right, not the left.  Arguments against this could be made regarding Lao Tzu but I think it would wrong to try to link Chuang Tzu with the left.

 

 

[ralis]

51 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Anarchism, I think, cannot be defined as either left or right.  And I agree, the right does not support Anarchism.  And I would likely have to agree that it supports the police state.  But then, the left supports the socialist state and that is a police state as well, especially if it is taken toward Communism.

 

Philosophically, I am a Conservative so that leans me more toward the right than the left.

 

Personally, I consider both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu to have been Conservatives.  In my mind that would lean them to the right, not the left.  Arguments against this could be made regarding Lao Tzu but I think it would wrong to try to link Chuang Tzu with the left.

 

 

 

If they were conservatives, Donald Trump is a conservative, Trump is a Taoist? You are really trying to stretch it!

I was just thinking that one could really stretch this out and include other right wing despots from the past. 20th century perhaps?

 

Addendum;

 

The Tao is non conceptual and transcends all political characterizations. The Tao was here long before humans.

Edited May 15, 2018 by ralis

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Anarchism, I think, cannot be defined as either left or right.  And I agree, the right does not support Anarchism.  And I would likely have to agree that it supports the police state.  But then, the left supports the socialist state and that is a police state as well, especially if it is taken toward Communism.

 

Agreed. Some left wingers lean towards Anarchism, but overall, they too rely heavily on laws and their enforcement.

 

Quote

Philosophically, I am a Conservative so that leans me more toward the right than the left.

 

Personally, I consider both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu to have been Conservatives.  In my mind that would lean them to the right, not the left.  Arguments against this could be made regarding Lao Tzu but I think it would wrong to try to link Chuang Tzu with the left.

 

 

 

Not saying that Lao Tzu and  Chuang Tzu were left wingers - but what makes you think that they were Conservatives? 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[ralis]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Agreed. Some left wingers lean towards Anarchism, but overall, they too rely heavily on laws and their enforcement.

 

 

Not saying that Lao Tzu and  Chuang Tzu were left wingers - but what makes you think that were Conservatives? 

 

How can the Tao be on anyone’s side? Except, persons who insist on tieing religious beliefs to the non conceptual universe. 

[Stosh]

Tolkien- Treebeard 

“Side? I am on nobody's side, because nobody is on my side, little orc.”....

^{Then he sees whats going on ...}
"They come with fire, they come with axes. Biting, breaking, hacking, burning. Destroyers and usurpers. Curse them!"

Edited May 15, 2018 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, ralis said:

 

If they were conservatives, Donald Trump is a conservative, Trump is a Taoist? You are really trying to stretch it!

I was just thinking that one could really stretch this out and include other right wing despots from the past. 20th century perhaps?

 

Good try Ralis however, I think you have implied associations I did not make.

 

But then, yes, Trump is an aspect of Dao just as is Max Waters.  Talk about dualities!!!!!

 

 

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Not saying that Lao Tzu and  Chuang Tzu were left wingers - but what makes you think that they were Conservatives? 

WoW!  You really expect me to quote all the support there is for that?  I think perhaps your expectations are way too high.

 

Lao Tzu:  Three Treasures:  Frugality.  That translates to conservativism.

 

Chuang Tzu:  Leave me alone to drag my tail in the mud.

 

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, ralis said:

 

How can the Tao be on anyone’s side? Except, persons who insist on tieing religious beliefs to the non conceptual universe. 

Valid question.  My answer is:  We can't.  But recall, I was speaking of two individual, not Dao.

 

And I agree, religions cannot speak to the unspeakable Dao.

 

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

Tolkien- Treebeard 

“Side? I am on nobody's side, because nobody is on my side, little orc.”....

^{Then he sees whats going on ...}
"They come with fire, they come with axes. Biting, breaking, hacking, burning. Destroyers and usurpers. Curse them!"

Or just shoot them below the waist if you can.

 

[Alchemical Walrus]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Personally, I consider both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu to have been Conservatives.  In my mind that would lean them to the right, not the left.  Arguments against this could be made regarding Lao Tzu but I think it would wrong to try to link Chuang Tzu with the left.

 

I can see that. "Ruling a great country is like cooking a small fish", ergo a light touch is needed, and heavy handedness will spoil it. Thus the Daost scriptures, especially the Daodejing, can be said to support smaller government, which is commonly called conservative. Ergo, by a simplistic definition of "Liberal = Bigger Government, Conservative = Smaller Government", the Daoist writers would be "conservative". They favor leaving things as they are to go about their natural courses, and this philosophy even extends to the political.
 

But by making that case, we can observe here that it obviously will lead to confusion because of people's differing definitions between conservatism and liberalism, or left and right:

 

7 hours ago, ralis said:

If they were conservatives, Donald Trump is a conservative, Trump is a Taoist?

Ralis appears to have a different understanding of the definitions of liberal and conservative as does Marblehead, and therefore finds the idea of Lao Tzu as a conservative to be absurd. This observable difference of opinion thus informs my answer to the question posed by this thread:
 

"When everyone in the world sees beauty,

Then ugly exists.

When everyone sees good,

Then bad exists.

Therefore:

What is and what is not create each other.

Difficult and easy complement each other.

Tall and short shape each other.

High and low rest on each other.

Voice and tone blend with each other.

First and last follow each other."

Left and Right define the platforms of each other.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Alchemical Walrus

[Lost in Translation]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Anarchism, I think, cannot be defined as either left or right.

 

Anarchism is actually the logical extreme of the right. How so? Right wants smaller government, greater personal liberty with corresponding greater personal responsibility. Left wants larger government, lesser personal liberty (outside of select arenas) with lesser personal responsibility and greater collective (shared e.g. "social") responsibility.

 

Draw these trends in a line and you get the following:

 

LEFT

-> Absolute Control

-> Heavy Control

-> Balanced Control vs Responsibility

-> Heavy Responsibility

-> Absolute Responsibility

-> RIGHT

 

People don't generally talk in these terms, but essentially Absolute Control is a police state (North Korea, for example). Everyone does what the government says, no exceptions. Absolute Responsibility is the opposite and means the individual has the ultimate say. It also means the individual can do whatever they want. An example of this is "Walking Dead", or "The Purge". A more realistic example is the American Western Territories circa 1850, or if you prefer then "Mos Eisley Cantina", from "Star Wars".

 

As an anarchist you naturally fall to the far right on this line. However, since you probably prefer a certain degree of law and order in your life, I imagine you are not a true anarchist, just very libertarian. Of course I could be wrong.

 

Which brings up a good point: far right does NOT mean police state. That is a very effective propaganda campaign waged by the Left. The far left is the police state. Don't believe me? Look at your average college campus. Who is protesting? Who is demanding change? Who is engaged in sit-ins? Do you think these students, or their professors, are on the right?

 

[Marblehead]

You said that better than I dared to.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

8 hours ago, Marblehead said:

WoW!  You really expect me to quote all the support there is for that? 

 

Yes. Please post the quotes in the original Chinese with at least three different, carefully referenced translations for each.

 

8 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I think perhaps your expectations are way too high.

 

Oh. I have heard that one before.

 

8 hours ago, Marblehead said:

 

Lao Tzu:  Three Treasures:  Frugality.  That translates to conservativism.

 

Chuang Tzu:  Leave me alone to drag my tail in the mud.

 

Frugality and wishing to be left alone - yes, these are characteristics typical of Conservatives. But are they enough to put those sages on the political right? I still don't see any real evidence of that.

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Yes. Please post the quotes in the original Chinese with at least three different, carefully referenced translations for each.

Don't hold your breath for that to happen.

 

5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Oh. I have heard that one before.

Yes, I know about that too.

 

5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Frugality and wishing to be left alone - yes, these are characteristics typical of Conservatives. But are they enough to put those sages on the political right? I still don't see any real evidence of that.

Well, Lao Tzu spoke of reducing the amount of control the government had on the people.

 

Chuang Tzu acknowledged the need for government but as little as necessary.

 

Both those are politically "right" views.

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

There's no need to argue about it. Simply draw a list of values espoused by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu apropos government , then compare these to the values espoused by the modern left and the modern right. Do this, and you will have your answer. It might also be illuminating to see how the left and right differ. Many people today don't even know what is left or right. Instead they know "right = bad" since that is what they read/hear/view on the media 24/7.

[Marblehead]

And of those watching all the BS coming from the media, a recent survey indicated that young people don't like Trump as president because the media told them to not like Trump but they think Obama was a good president but they can't say why he was a good president.  Brainwashed!

 

[CityHermit!]

Left and Right are illusory, it's all just Hegelian Dialectics. Individuals and groups with political influence use Hegelian Dialectics to keep everyone else in line. That's it in a nutshell.

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

Left and Right are illusory, it's all just Hegelian Dialectics. Individuals and groups with political influence use Hegelian Dialectics to keep everyone else in line. That's it in a nutshell.

Well, what good is government if they can't keep the people in line?

 

[CityHermit!]

Just now, Marblehead said:

Well, what good is government if they can't keep the people in line?

 

It's not even about the government, but private entities that use governance for their own private interests.

[Marblehead]

I might be able to respond to that but I'm going to have to think first.  That might take a while.

 

[CityHermit!]

Just now, Marblehead said:

I might be able to respond to that but I'm going to have to think first.  That might take a while.

 

 

No rush. I'm a bit busy at the moment to speak more elaborately myself. Simplifying it is suitable anyway.

[Aetherous]

55 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

Left and Right are illusory, it's all just Hegelian Dialectics. Individuals and groups with political influence use Hegelian Dialectics to keep everyone else in line. That's it in a nutshell.

 

So true (Trump is actually very centrist or even liberal in his opinions)...but there is still the fact that people on the left and right think and operate in completely different ways.

For instance, a liberal friend showed me an article about a year ago which claimed that conservatives are more fear based because their amygdalas are significantly larger than in liberals.

At least that was the conclusion of that article. I also wonder about the fact that the amygdalas of diagnosed psychopaths are significantly smaller compared to the normal person...

Anyway...people are all different. It's no wonder Sarah Silverman is a liberal, given her demeanor. Conservatives don't behave like that. There's a reason beyond simply choosing a side.