Papayapple Posted February 16, 2017 its hard for me to form the right question so please bear with me... The way things are- but in relation to what? To us? In our human dimensions? Or to themselves??. We often say things like : "I've finally seen it for what it is". Well how are you so sure that your not seeing it for yet another thing that it isn't??? Just another layer of delusion.. Or is it? Or is it that we all see everything exactly as it is, only it's changing all the time and it is all different for everybody? Oh forgive me my overactive mind I cannot sleep 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azucenaalev Posted February 16, 2017 That's a good question And a tough one that I don't have the answer to. I'll let you know the answer when I become enlightened As for my thoughts now, how do we ever know that what we're seeing is the truth? I think in many ways, reality is fluid and doesn't ever exist how we think it does. My favorite example is history. Everyone treats history like it's set in stone and indisputable, and then historians dig up some rock that proves that what they believed for the past three hundred years was wrong. So, I think part of "seeing the reality" is understanding that we can't ever fully comprehend what reality is, since we have such a lack of facts and perspective. And when we see something "as it is," it's merely a way of acknowledging that we're one layer closer to this unreachable truth. Or something like that I guess I think it's not possible to see things as they are, and that's the beauty of it. That truth comes when you accept that you know nothing. The Dao that can be known is not the true Dao, or something along those lines. What do you think? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sagebrush Posted February 16, 2017 I do not see things the way you do. I see things the way I do. Some of them are off that I am sure, but some not so far off 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted February 16, 2017 You'll see things according to what society dictates in the lifetime you are experiencing. Your task is to remove mind blockages and perceive with your naked eye a broader and richer world (natural environment) and jhana progression during meditation practice (the greater picture). Our modern human eyesight is very poor especially urban dwellers with all that visual pollution and poor air quality. Did you know that the Kalahari bushmen are able to see the moons of Jupiter? Incredible! http://www.chegg.com/homework-help/questions-and-answers/kalahari-bushmen-said-able-see-four-brightest-moons-jupiter-naked-eye-according-rayleigh-s-q2526929 I have the newspaper article of this news but saved on an external disk which I can't access right now, sorry. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azucenaalev Posted February 16, 2017 Gerard has a good point which I agree with. Reality is clouded by experiences (esp. those related to society) and once removed you can "see clearly" in a way 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) Nice topic. You know, that's one of the problems I have with science: it constantly breaks things down to its smallest component but when they are all done all they have is components, none of which are of any use in my everyday life. I have a bike. It likely has about 87 components. But I can't ride the bike unless all the components are in their proper place. Do we see things as they really are in their complete form or do we see the components? And are we seeing with a clear mind or are all the images tainted by our false learning and prejudices? Edited February 16, 2017 by Marblehead 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) A six-year-old came to me once and said: teacher I have seen a fairy! The other kids said: fairies don't exist! Some children are already too conditioned and lose the ability 'to see.' Yin and Yang energies were a basic fact in the time of The Buddha, like when rain falls from the sky, they were taken for granted, which is why he never paid attention to them. Life on Earth was like a giant garden, an Eden. Before I started this path I never knew Yin and Yang existed. Imagine most of humanity. My sister just came back from a visit to the Aeolian islands off the coast of Sicily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolian_Islands). She told me seeing the Stromboli erupting at night time with the whole Mediterranean Sea behind was like watching Archangel Michael descending from the Heavens. Why do you think in Ancient Rome humans revered the Gods? Same as Ancient Greece? I also believe Druids (and other ancient shamanic groups) were able to directly interact with nature spirits without taking any mind altering drugs like Ayahuasca. No need, back the human mind was a lot more opened: no TV, no stress, no fast food, no cars, no noise, no nothing like today! The mind of a newborn is what Daoists and Buddhists are constantly striving for. Pure, innocent and in complete harmony with the forces of nature. By the way I'm off to the Aeolian islands. Want spent a whole year meditating while facing the sea!! https://goo.gl/images/jenZww Edited February 17, 2017 by Gerard 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geof Nanto Posted February 16, 2017 Here is classical Daoist perspective on it from philosopher John Gray that follows the pattern of Mountain, No Mountain, Mountain. Chuang-Tzu (Zhuangzi) is obviously at the third stage.….. Chuang-Tzu is as much a sceptic as a mystic. The sharp dichotomy between appearance and reality that is central in Buddhism is absent, and so is the attempt to transcend the illusions of everyday existence. Chuang-Tzu sees human life as a dream, but he does not seek to awaken from it. In a famous passage he writes of dreaming he was a butterfly, and not knowing on awakening whether he is a human being who has dreamt of being a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he is a human being. Unlike the Buddha, Chuang-Tzu did not seek to awaken from the dream. He dreamt of dreaming more lucidly: 'Buddhists awaken out of dreaming; ChuangTzu wakes up to dreaming.' Awakening to the truth that life is a dream need not mean turning away from it. It may mean embracing it: If 'Life is a dream' implies that no achievement is lasting, it also implies that life can be charged with the wonder of dreams, that we drift spontaneously through events that follow a logic different from that of everyday intelligence, that fears and regrets are as unreal as hopes and desires. Chuang-Tzu admits no idea of salvation. There is no self and no awakening from the dream of self. We cannot be rid of illusions. Illusion is our natural condition. Why not accept it? 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Foote Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) On Chuang Tzu versus Gautama, you could fault Gautama for teaching attainments, yet bear in mind that his way of living (as he described it) consisted of attending to a rhythm of awarenesses against the backdrop of the movement of breath, as a thing perfect in itself (and pleasant besides, so he said--he came to this after decades of frustration with teaching enlightenment, I'm guessing). My impression is that he simply stated the natural mindfulness. As Marblehead brought out, the idea is to accurately describe the components and relationships, and allow the autonomic functionality of being to take care of the rest. You only need to know the parts of the bicycle when something's not working right--the rest of the time, once you know how to ride a bike, it's effortless. Yuanwu (12th century Ch'an teacher and author of "The Blue Cliff Record") may have spoken of "seeing things the way they are", but what I remember instead is this teaching:"Be aware of where you really are 24 hours a day. You must be most attentive."("Zen Letters: the Teachings of Yuanwu", trans. T. Cleary, pg 53)I'm certain that Yuanwu is referring to the sense of self-location, which is a function of the senses (equalibrioception, proprioception, graviception, and oculoception--yes, I'm making up words for the senses of gravity and vision--see the research of Olaf Blanke), and depends in part on the spontaneous movement of breath. If you can't ride, you might want to exercise the pieces and their relationship to one another. Edited February 17, 2017 by Mark Foote 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wstein Posted February 17, 2017 We often say things like : "I've finally seen it for what it is". Well how are you so sure that your not seeing it for yet another thing that it isn't??? Just another layer of delusion.. Or is it? Or is it that we all see everything exactly as it is, only it's changing all the time and it is all different for everybody? Pretty much one can NOT tell. Almost certainly some of the times, the new view is less accurate than the old one. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Papayapple Posted February 17, 2017 By the way I'm off to the Aeolian islands. Want spent a whole year meditating while facing the sea!! https://goo.gl/images/jenZww Wow. Just wow. Happy practice then Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
