Effort vs no-effort

[dwai]

I understand what you are saying, but you are not really responding to my question...

 

So with the above are you simply disagreeing with the Papaji quote?  That there is no need to clear the vasanas? That one need do nothing?

 

That your "resting in the witness by the grace of my Master", was not temporary, but a permanent Self realization for you? 

 

 

This is IMHO, so caveat emptor

 

Vasanas will fall away on their own (gradually) as the mind rests more naturally in the witness as there is no do-ership anymore. 

 

When I had the first "taste" of this (when that driving thing happened), it lasted for almost one year, until I started discussing this with my friend who was getting into meditation and advaita...the more effort I put in trying to articulate this, the more I realized I'm attaching to the "knowledge" and farther I was getting from being that. 

 

I asked Master about this. He told me that "what you experienced spontaneously earlier will come back to you as permanent being once you empty yourself"... 

[Jeff]

十牛

Takes effort to become effortless...

 

 

So does that mean that when you follow your loop and return to society, "you" are no longer there? You don't interact with any of those people in society?  You make no decisions or choices with the people you interact with?

[Jeff]

This is IMHO, so caveat emptor

 

Vasanas will fall away on their own (gradually) as the mind rests more naturally in the witness as there is no do-ership anymore. 

 

When I had the first "taste" of this (when that driving thing happened), it lasted for almost one year, until I started discussing this with my friend who was getting into meditation and advaita...the more effort I put in trying to articulate this, the more I realized I'm attaching to the "knowledge" and farther I was getting from being that. 

 

I asked Master about this. He told me that "what you experienced spontaneously earlier will come back to you as permanent being once you empty yourself"... 

 

So would you say that constantly residing in the witness (or perfect patience) is what you would call a jivamukta?  Also, with your master taking his time and responding to your questions, it was not really your master responding to you, but instead the Self flowing through your master since he was only watching?

[3bob]

The Self always is the Self, it is not the human or particular matrix for Self that determines or can change essential Self...in other words veils may come and go or be like smoke covering the Self but the Self remains regardless of that. 

[dwai]

So would you say that constantly residing in the witness (or perfect patience) is what you would call a jivamukta?  Also, with your master taking his time and responding to your questions, it was not really your master responding to you, but instead the Self flowing through your master since he was only watching?

 

I think so. Master can also do the matrix-bending stuff too - physical teleportation etc etc, but he says there is no "volition" when it happens...it needs to happen so it happens.

 

He does pray for others though...and he says his master often intervenes when necessary.

Edited February 17, 2017 by dwai

[Jeff]

I think so. Master can also do the matrix-bending stuff too - physical teleportation etc etc, but he says there is no "volition" when it happens...it needs to happen so it happens.

 

 

And you have seen him teleport?  Or, maybe I should say... seen it when the Self has moved the jivamukta to another physical location?

[dwai]

And you have seen him teleport?  Or, maybe I should say... seen it when the Self has moved the jivamukta to another physical location?

 

I've seen him walk through walls in his energy body. But not physically teleport. That some others have seen...

[Jeff]

I've seen him walk through walls in his energy body. But not physically teleport. That some others have seen...

 

 

With the ..., did you mean that some people that you know and trust have seen your master physically teleport?

[dwai]

With the ..., did you mean that some people that you know and trust have seen your master physically teleport?

 

I have no reason to doubt them or my Master

[3bob]

I have also seen them pass through thick skull bone...  

[3bob]

Actually, I think we can learn a lot from the different views of various traditions. Like looking at a mountain from different angles. I certainly have no disagreement with you using bible quotes and think your first one did partially support your posted point.

 

Still it can turn into a slippery slope.  For instance a Hindu proclaiming that Buddhists are also an eternal Self it's just that they don't know it yet, or the historic Buddha proclaiming that Vedic teachings are incorrect about an eternal Self - with both being an affront or insult to the other.  

[Marblehead]

Well, I think they both are wrong.  Oh well.

 

BTW  I do sometimes use lower case "self" to speak to the physical being and upper case "Self" to our total essence.

 

But my reason for doing so is Taoist related, not Hindu or Buddhist.

[dwai]

Well, I think they both are wrong.  Oh well.

 

BTW  I do sometimes use lower case "self" to speak to the physical being and upper case "Self" to our total essence.

 

But my reason for doing so is Taoist related, not Hindu or Buddhist.

 

There really is no difference to the Self. Only what the self perceives as differences 

[Jeff]

Still it can turn into a slippery slope.  For instance a Hindu proclaiming that Buddhists are also an eternal Self it's just that they don't know it yet, or the historic Buddha proclaiming that Vedic teachings are incorrect about an eternal Self - with both being an affront or insult to the other.

 

Yes, but that is not really seeing things from a different view... That is just trying to overlay your view on others...

[dwai]

Still it can turn into a slippery slope.  For instance a Hindu proclaiming that Buddhists are also an eternal Self it's just that they don't know it yet, or the historic Buddha proclaiming that Vedic teachings are incorrect about an eternal Self - with both being an affront or insult to the other.  

 

The self sees difference. To the Self there is none

[neti neti]

"Concentration is not thinking of one thing. On the contrary, it is excluding all thoughts, since all thoughts obstruct the sense of one's true being. All efforts are to be directed simply to removing the veil of ignorance.

Concentrating the mind solely on the Self will lead to happiness or bliss.

Drawing in the thoughts, restraining them and preventing them from straying outwards is called detachment (vairagya).

Fixing them in the Self is spiritual practice (sadhana).

Concentrating on the heart is the same as concentrating on the Self. Heart is another name for Self." ~Ramana Maharshi

"Self-inquiry is the process and the goal also. 'I am' is the goal and the final reality.

To hold to it with effort is self-inquiry. When spontaneous and natural it is realization." ~Ramana Maharshi

"There is nothing so simple as being the Self. It requires no effort, no aid.

One has to leave off the wrong identity and be in his/her eternal, natural, inherent state." ~Ramana Maharshi

"In accordance with the prarabdha(past karmas) of each, the One whose function it is to ordain makes each to act.

What will not happen will never happen, whatever effort one may put forth.

And what will happen will not fail to happen, however much one may seek to prevent it. This is certain.

The part of wisdom therefore is to stay quiet." ~Ramana Maharshi

"There is no greater mystery than this, that we keep seeking reality though in fact we are reality.

We think that there is something hiding reality and that this must be destroyed before reality is gained.

How ridiculous! A day will dawn when you will laugh at all your past efforts. 

That which will be the day you laugh is also here and now." ~Ramana Maharshi

Edited February 17, 2017 by neti neti

[gendao]

So does that mean that when you follow your loop and return to society, "you" are no longer there? You don't interact with any of those people in society?  You make no decisions or choices with the people you interact with?

What happens to "you" each time "you" fall asleep or wake up?  Who are "you" in your dreams and out of them?

 

To know itself, it lost itself.  Became dual.  Polarized.  Self-contrasting. 

To find itself, it forgot itself.  Sought monism.  Depolarized.  Indistinguishable.

 

Can it know and find itself at the same time?

Can it know without losing, and find without forgetting?

 

What is "it?"

Edited February 18, 2017 by gendao

[Bindi]

"Concentration is not thinking of one thing. On the contrary, it is excluding all thoughts, since all thoughts obstruct the sense of one's true being. All efforts are to be directed simply to removing the veil of ignorance.

Concentrating the mind solely on the Self will lead to happiness or bliss.

Drawing in the thoughts, restraining them and preventing them from straying outwards is called detachment (vairagya).

Fixing them in the Self is spiritual practice (sadhana).

Concentrating on the heart is the same as concentrating on the Self. Heart is another name for Self." ~Ramana Maharshi

It is the removing of ignorance or illusion that takes the effort, what Ramana says of the Self needing no effort is coming from a Self-realised Absolute perspective -  to equate what he says about no effort being needed with the idea that there is no effort needed whilst in the unrealised state is to confuse the  Absolute level of reality with the conventional level of reality where effort still needs to be made. For example: 

 

The ever-present Self needs no efforts to be realised, Realisation is already there. Illusion alone is to be removed. Some say the word from the mouth of the Master removes it instantaneously. Others say that meditation, etc., are necessary for realisation...

... others say it is from reflection; yet others say from one-pointedness and also from samadhi. Though they look different on the surface, ultimately they mean the same - Ramana Maharshi

 

"Self-inquiry is the process and the goal also. 'I am' is the goal and the final reality.

To hold to it with effort is self-inquiry. When spontaneous and natural it is realization." ~Ramana Maharshi

 

Ramana favoured the method of self-inquiry above all other methods, though he didn't push this preference onto the people around him. Self-inquiry is inevitably an effort, until the point of Self-realisation.

 

There is a state beyond our efforts or effortlessness. Until it is realised effort is necessary. After tasting such Bliss, even once one will repeatedly try to regain it. Having once experienced the Bliss of Peace no one would like to be out of it or engage himself otherwise. -Ramana Maharshi

 

"There is nothing so simple as being the Self. It requires no effort, no aid.

One has to leave off the wrong identity and be in his/her eternal, natural, inherent state." ~Ramana Maharshi

 

Being the Self requires no effort or aid, but to realise 'being the Self' one has to leave off the wrong identity, ignorance, illusion, ego, and this requires effort and a method.

 

"In accordance with the prarabdha(past karmas) of each, the One whose function it is to ordain makes each to act.

What will not happen will never happen, whatever effort one may put forth.

And what will happen will not fail to happen, however much one may seek to prevent it. This is certain.

The part of wisdom therefore is to stay quiet." ~Ramana Maharshi

 

Karma and destiny, I will take his word for it. Is he speaking from the conventional level of reality in your quote, and from the absolute level in the one below?

 

You and I are the same.

What I have done is surely possible for all.

You are the Self

now and can never be anything else.

Throw your worries to the wind,

turn within and find Peace. - Ramana Maharshi

 

"There is no greater mystery than this, that we keep seeking reality though in fact we are reality.

We think that there is something hiding reality and that this must be destroyed before reality is gained.

How ridiculous! A day will dawn when you will laugh at all your past efforts. 

That which will be the day you laugh is also here and now." ~Ramana Maharshi

We loosely talk of Self-realization, for lack of a better term.  But how can one realize or make real that which alone is real? All we need to do is to give up our habit of regarding as real that which is unreal. All religious practices are meant solely to help us do this. When we stop regarding the unreal as real, then reality alone will remain, and we will be that. - Ramana Maharshi

 

Perhaps when one fully realises this, when ego completely collapses never to be revived, our previous ignorance of reality will be perceived as amusing. Who knows?

Edited February 18, 2017 by Bindi

[Bindi]

imho, the mind resting in the witness is the first step towards effortlessness. It takes some effort to get the mind to rest in the witness initially. Slowly it becomes natural for the mind to rest in the witness. Resting in the witness is being Present. Being present, one can then begin to act as action is needed, without worrying about the past and projecting into the future.

 

Which comes first, being able to rest the mind in the witness to then be able to dissolve the vasanas, or rooting out the vasanas which will then allow the mind to rest progressively deeper in the witness state?

 

Regardless, the self-enquiry method does require effort up to the point of Self-realisation, as was evident in the OP, there is no effortlessness until that point. I don't believe Ramana would ever have contradicted this, except when describing reality from the Absolute perspective.

 

If the mind becomes introverted through enquiry into the source of aham-vritti, the vasanas become extinct, and in the absence of the reflecting medium the phenomenon of reflection, namely, the mind, also disappears being absorbed into the light of the one Reality, the Heart.This is the sum and substance of all that an aspirant needs to know. What is imperatively required of him is an earnest and one-pointed enquiry into the source of aham-vritti. - Ramana Maharshi

 

 

The hardest part imho is patience...ie for the mind to accept that patience is a necessary virtue in this path. Until there is Presence. That is the effort...to take a practice and keep doing it, without feeling bored, tired, exhausted etc etc. It takes a "trick" of not attaching to the results of said effort...if we think about the effort, we become impatient. 

 

So if we don't expect any results and just do the practice, it will become effortless after the initial effort. This is the effortlessness that is being referred to in terms of Wu Wei or Nishkama Karma.

 

I'm not convinced Ramana's reference to effortlessness is the equivalent of wu wei, I believe his reference to effortlessness is in terms of the Absolute truth perspective, the "highest truth" that we are "always already the Self," so there is "nothing to be done, no efforts to be made," and that we are "ever-free" in/as the Self, but he tends to qualify these Absolute truth level statements with a conventional truth level prerequisite, for example:

 

- The ever-present Self needs no efforts to be realised, Realisation is already there. Illusion alone is to be removed.

 

To remove illusion though requires effort, specifically it requires that the vasanas  are rooted out, and to Ramana this was not a naturally occurring and effortless activity:

 

- A practiser may by long practice gain a glimpse of the Reality. This experience may be vivid for the time being. And yet he will be distracted by the old vasanas and so his experience will not avail him. Such a man must continue his manana and nididhyasana so that all the obstacles may be destroyed. He will then be able to remain permanently in the Real State.

 

- Owing to the fluctuation of the vasanas, jnana takes time to steady itself. Unsteady jnana is not enough to check rebirths. Jnana cannot remain unshaken side by side with vasanas. True, that in the proximity of a great Master, the vasanas will cease to be active, the mind becomes still and samadhi results, similar to fire not scorching because of other devices. Thus the disciple gains true knowledge and right experience in the presence of the Master. To remain unshaken in it further efforts are necessary.

 

- Experience gained without rooting out all the vasanas cannot remain steady. Efforts must be made to eradicate the vasanas. Otherwise rebirth after death takes place.

 

- Therefore the seeker’s aim must be to drain away the vasanas from the Heart and let no reflection obstruct the Light of Eternal Consciousness. This is achieved by the search for the origin of the ego and by diving into the Heart. This is the direct method for Self-Realisation.

 

Also imho, Mind and Ego are non-different.

I don’t follow Ramana’s self-enquiry method, though I do practise a personal self-enquiry method which does have some similarities, and IME with this personal self-enquiry method into ego I suspect the mind is quite distinct from ego, but I’m not sure about any of this. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by Bindi

[3bob]

Seems a warning might be in order with the "self inquiry" method (or almost any other method) if one gets to self-absorbed in it and disconnects from other ways of dharma thus also making karma?

 

Btw, being a total renunciate secluded in a monastery, cave or forest is not the dharma that a vast majority of people have to work with or on, even though at some point down the line such may come into effect, and give results that only such can give.

 

At times I've been burned out on some of this stuff in the sense of and in relation to that saying, "religion was made for man, man was not made for religion",  also in addition to that context Jesus said, "my yoke is easy..." meaning to me in particular that without the key ingredient of love included, all works come to "vanity" - being similar to what Solomon noted. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

As Rene would say, one foot in the Manifest and one foot in the Mystery.

 

With desires we see the Manifest and without desires we see the Mystery.

[dwai]

 

Which comes first, being able to rest the mind in the witness to then be able to dissolve the vasanas, or rooting out the vasanas which will then allow the mind to rest progressively deeper in the witness state?

 

Regardless, the self-enquiry method does require effort up to the point of Self-realisation, as was evident in the OP, there is no effortlessness until that point. I don't believe Ramana would ever have contradicted this, except when describing reality from the Absolute perspective.

 

If the mind becomes introverted through enquiry into the source of aham-vritti, the vasanas become extinct, and in the absence of the reflecting medium the phenomenon of reflection, namely, the mind, also disappears being absorbed into the light of the one Reality, the Heart.This is the sum and substance of all that an aspirant needs to know. What is imperatively required of him is an earnest and one-pointed enquiry into the source of aham-vritti. - Ramana Maharshi

 

 

 

I'm not convinced Ramana's reference to effortlessness is the equivalent of wu wei, I believe his reference to effortlessness is in terms of the Absolute truth perspective, the "highest truth" that we are "always already the Self," so there is "nothing to be done, no efforts to be made," and that we are "ever-free" in/as the Self, but he tends to qualify these Absolute truth level statements with a conventional truth level prerequisite, for example:

 

- The ever-present Self needs no efforts to be realised, Realisation is already there. Illusion alone is to be removed.

 

To remove illusion though requires effort, specifically it requires that the vasanas are rooted out, and to Ramana this was not a naturally occurring and effortless activity:

 

- A practiser may by long practice gain a glimpse of the Reality. This experience may be vivid for the time being. And yet he will be distracted by the old vasanas and so his experience will not avail him. Such a man must continue his manana and nididhyasana so that all the obstacles may be destroyed. He will then be able to remain permanently in the Real State.

 

- Owing to the fluctuation of the vasanas, jnana takes time to steady itself. Unsteady jnana is not enough to check rebirths. Jnana cannot remain unshaken side by side with vasanas. True, that in the proximity of a great Master, the vasanas will cease to be active, the mind becomes still and samadhi results, similar to fire not scorching because of other devices. Thus the disciple gains true knowledge and right experience in the presence of the Master. To remain unshaken in it further efforts are necessary.

 

- Experience gained without rooting out all the vasanas cannot remain steady. Efforts must be made to eradicate the vasanas. Otherwise rebirth after death takes place.

 

- Therefore the seeker’s aim must be to drain away the vasanas from the Heart and let no reflection obstruct the Light of Eternal Consciousness. This is achieved by the search for the origin of the ego and by diving into the Heart. This is the direct method for Self-Realisation.

 

 

I don’t follow Ramana’s self-enquiry method, though I do practise a personal self-enquiry method which does have some similarities, and IME with this personal self-enquiry method into ego I suspect the mind is quite distinct from ego, but I’m not sure about any of this.

Our regular life itself can be a way to either dissolve or reinforce our vasanas.

 

So which comes first? I'd venture to say that as the mind rests more easily in the witness, the vasanas start loosening their grip.

 

Vasanas are vasanas if there is identification with the ego/mind and body (which is also a concept in our mind itself). When that identification disappears, whom do those vasanas belong to? They will fall away with no clinging self left.

 

Nisargadatta Maharaj was a chain smoker. Did that mean he had vasanas? No...he was liberated and free, so it didn't matter whether he smoked or not.

 

When there is no doer, vasanas and karma cannot affect. They either fall away or remain as happenings, until they fall away. Karma is associated with the jivatma. vasanas or samskaras too belong to the jivatma. When there is no jiva left, whom do they belong to?

[3bob]

Dwai,  I don't buy the idea that a true master is not also a master of voluntary mind and or body habits... thus a negative and obvious unhealthy habit could not really possess them if they actually had such or full Self-mastery.  Further, such strange and incongruent excuses along these lines have been used by all sorts of quasi-masters or quasi-yogi's for their minor or intermediate short comings - or in some cases wild adharmic escapades!

Edited February 18, 2017 by 3bob

[dwai]

Dwai, I don't buy the idea that a true master is not also a master of voluntary mind and or body habits... thus a negative and obvious unhealthy habit could not really possess them if they actually had such or full Self-mastery. Further, such strange and incongruent excuses along these lines have been used by all sorts of quasi-masters or quasi-yogi's for their minor or intermediate short comings - or in some cases wild adharmic escapades!

Yes indeed. The proof of the pudding is in the eating

[neti neti]

The sensed needfulness of removing ignorance, is itself illusion. This sensed loosening of the shackles, is itself illusion. What effort can be put forth in letting go of chains which never bound me? Can it even truly be said there is a letting go? Even the emergence of my perceived underlying naturalness is mere perception in contrast with perceived unnaturalness. In truth, I, without attributes, simply imagine a "doer".

 

As such, at all levels there is neither effort nor effortlessness. Just ideas, appearances... a snake in a rope. A mirage of water in the desert of the mind. Upon dissolving such distinctions effort is seen as a call from my Self, by my Self. I was my Self when effort arose, I am my Self when effort subsides. What appears as the lofty goal rendering all else insignificant, is already Me. What more is there to realize?

 

Where has effort gone? It's as if it never was. Nothing has changed. Just an appearance of change. An appearance impossible without my being the Stillness... just being as I am.

 

Where is effortlessness? An idea in the dream. Nothing has changed. Spontaneous, without effort or its absence...just being as I am.