Effort vs no-effort

[neti neti]

my body/mind could feel that one coming, but was it really my body/mind since one of those body snatchers got it (like they did with Donald Sutherland) when I was sleeping but only apparently so since the sub-conscious recorded everything...Scream!!

 

Lol maybe that's 'cause your body-mind is my body-mind. I guess we're all body-snatchers!

 

But, if it doesn't feel like my body anymore, have I been body-snatched?! Oh well... I don't mind, so it don't matter.

 

No mind... no matter!

Edited February 19, 2017 by neti neti

[Jeff]

Well for communication's sake, words can be useful at times. However, that which the word points to does not exist simply by reason of the word's existence. That applies to all traditions. There is no question that you are, that much is self-evident. What must be investigated is who you are, ultimately.

 

Not a remote drone... you, and yet, not you. When you know who you are, every-thing temporal is rendered null and void. Being without beginning or end, every-thing observed within the reference of space/time becomes beyond the notions of relevance or irrelevance.

 

The "delusion" is that there's a possibility for "delusion" which has not been self-imposed or, a "samsara" in which one has been forced to be a wanderer or... a druggie forced to plunge the needle in his vein. It's all an illusion, a part of the creative script, the power of lila.

 

What I've effectively said is that, all that appears to exist, appears to exist within consciousness, as consciousness. That includes me, you and this discussion. To drive this point home... I've effectively said nothin

 

"All that is heard is nonexistent."~Adi Sankara

Yes, I would agree with the point that what needs to be investigated is "who you are"...

 

It is your "null and void" point where there is the disagreement. While all that appears (or is heard with your quote) in consciousness, such consciousness is reflection (or translation) in mind. Dive as deep as you want into your Self consciousness, and I can still find your differentiated signature of primordial being.

 

Buddha would describe it like this...

 

When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

 

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation. There is one danger against which they must be on their guard. Disciples may not appreciate that the mind-system, because of its accumulated habit-energy, goes on fuctioning, more or less unconsciously, as long as they live. They may sometimes think that they can expedite the attainment of their goal of tranquilisation by entirely supressing the activities of the mind-system. This is a mistake, for even if the activities of the mind are supressed, the mind will still go on fuctioning because the seeds of habit-energy will still remain in it. What they think is extinction of mind, is really the non-fuctioning of the mind's external world to which they are no longer attached. That is, the goal if tranquilisation is to be reached not by supressing all mind activity but by getting rid of discriminations and attachments.

 

-Lankavatara sutra

 

Need to drop those pesky vasanas...

Edited February 19, 2017 by Jeff

[neti neti]

Yes, I would agree with the point that what needs to be investigated is "who you are"...

 

...Ultimately?

 

 

It is your "null and void" point where there is the disagreement. While all that appears (or is heard with your quote) in consciousness, such consciousness is reflection (or translation) in mind. Dive as deep as you want into your Self consciousness, and I can still find your differentiated signature of primordial being.

 

Who is there to find what? The finder finding is the consciousness finding consciousness. In exploration of its primordial being, It discovers It is beyond being.

 

"When you go beyond awareness, there is a state of non-duality, in which there is no cognition, only pure being, which may be as well called non-being, if by being you mean being something in particular." ~Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

The diver and the deep is within the diving. The culprit creating a separate "I" and making differentiations where there are none is the mind. Indeed, the villain and the victim are one.

 

 

 

Buddha would describe it like this...

 

When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

 

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation. There is one danger against which they must be on their guard. Disciples may not appreciate that the mind-system, because of its accumulated habit-energy, goes on fuctioning, more or less unconsciously, as long as they live. They may sometimes think that they can expedite the attainment of their goal of tranquilisation by entirely supressing the activities of the mind-system. This is a mistake, for even if the activities of the mind are supressed, the mind will still go on fuctioning because the seeds of habit-energy will still remain in it. What they think is extinction of mind, is really the non-fuctioning of the mind's external world to which they are no longer attached. That is, the goal if tranquilisation is to be reached not by supressing all mind activity but by getting rid of discriminations and attachments.

 

-Lankavatara sutra

 

Need to drop those pesky vasanas...

 

Or, dropping the need to drop them, and then watching them fade away. Under a different light, their complete lack of power is delightfully made clear.

 

"The deluded mind is caught up in thinking and not thinking. Though the mind of the wise one may think what thoughts come, he is not aware of it." ~Ashtavakra Gita

Edited February 19, 2017 by neti neti

[3bob]

"Long ago, a certain Chuang Tzu dreamt he was a butterfly -- a butterfly fluttering here and there on a whim, happy and carefree, knowing nothing of Chuang Tzu. Then all of a sudden he woke to find that he was, beyond all doubt, Chuang Tzu. Who knows if it was Chuang Tzu dreaming a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming Chuang Tzu?" --

[Jeff]

...Ultimately?

 

Who is there to find what? The finder finding is the consciousness finding consciousness. In exploration of its primordial being, It discovers It is beyond being.

 

"When you go beyond awareness, there is a state of non-duality, in which there is no cognition, only pure being, which may be as well called non-being, if by being you mean being something in particular." ~Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

The diver and the deep is within the diving. The culprit creating a separate "I" and making differentiations where there are none is the mind. Indeed, the villain and the victim are one.

 

Or, dropping the need to drop them, and then watching them fade away. Under a different light, their complete lack of power is delightfully made clear.

 

"The deluded mind is caught up in thinking and not thinking. Though the mind of the wise one may think what thoughts come, he is not aware of it." ~Ashtavakra Gita

Beyond awareness, there is a nondual "state"... A wise one not aware of his thoughts (or habitual actions I guess)... These quotes sum our divergent views well.

 

The fact that vasanas do "fade away" when they have a "complete lack of power" is exactly what I have been saying from the beginning. The problem is when they obviously do not have a complete lack of power, and they stay resolutely in place...

 

Thanks again for the discussion.

[Bindi]

boy oh boy, anybody here with or without a body/mind getting a headache in their only apparently existing skull?

 

Specially for you, an interview with Sri Nisargadatta ...

 

Q:   You said the body defines the outer self. Since you have a body, do you have also an outer self?

M:  I would, were I attached to the body and take it to be myself.

Q:   But you are aware of it and attend to its needs.

M:  The contrary is nearer to truth -- the body knows me and is aware of my needs. But neither is really so. This body appears in your mind; in my mind nothing is.

Q:   Do you mean to say you are quite unconscious of having a body?

M:  On the contrary, I am conscious of not having a body.

Q:   I see you smoking!

M:  Exactly so. You see me smoking. Find out for yourself how did you come to see me Smoking, and you will easily realise that it is your 'I-am-the-body' state of mind that is responsible for this 'I-see-you-smoking' idea.

[neti neti]

Beyond awareness, there is a nondual "state"... A wise one not aware of his thoughts (or habitual actions I guess)... These quotes sum our divergent views well.

 

The fact that vasanas do "fade away" when they have a "complete lack of power" is exactly what I have been saying from the beginning. The problem is when they obviously do not have a complete lack of power, and they stay resolutely in place...

 

Thanks again for the discussion.

 

Indeed, they must stay in place for one convinced they are his own. But hacking away at branches is futile, as they tend to grow back ever stronger.

 

The wise aim for the root with one swift blow.

Edited February 19, 2017 by neti neti

[neti neti]

Questioner: You say that whatever you see is yourself. You also admit that you see the world as we see it. Here is today’s newspaper with all the horrors going on. Since the world is yourself, how can you explain such misbehaviour

Maharaj: Which world do you have in mind?

Q: Our common world, in which we live.

M: Are you sure we live in the same world? I do not mean nature, the sea and the land, plants and animals. They are not the problem, nor the endless space, the infinite time, the inexhaustible power.

Do not be misled by my eating and smoking, reading and talking. My mind is not here, my life is not here.

Your world, of desires and their fulfillments, of fears and their escapes, is definitely not my world.

I do not even perceive it, except through what you tell me about it. It is your private dream world and my only reaction to it is to ask you to stop dreaming.

Edited February 19, 2017 by neti neti

[dwai]

[Jeff]

...

To be is to know. All other knowing is not being. In not being they are not knowing.

...

 

Now this is true wisdom...

[Jeff]

Indeed, they must stay in place for one convinced they are his own. But hacking away at branches is futile, as they tend to grow back ever stronger.

 

The wise aim for the root with one swift blow.

There is no hacking and there is no swift blow. As Dwai wisely states, there is only "being" or not. With being, vasanas just fade away...

[Bindi]

I think the circus happens when the non-dual understanding is intellectual, and hasn't been won by hard work. Examining the false self is hard work and cannot involve illusion or delusion if you are to actually progress on the road towards Self-realisation.

[dwai]

[Bindi]

But the irony is, you are never not the Self

 

Yes I know...back to square one...go to start and resume the game

 

I am always the Self, but currently ignorant of this as a realised reality.

[3bob]

water and oil do not mix well no matter who or what stirs.

[Mark Foote]

Effort or no effort...

 

The father, the son, the holy ghost.  One who blasphemes the holy ghost has no salvation.  

 

Aristotle's use of the excluded middle in logic has been found to result in contradiction, by the mathematicians of the twentieth century--as in, "effort or no efflort".

 

The way of living that Gautama described as his own involved thought applied and sustained.  The only unusual element is the beholding of cessation.  "Making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind, one lays hold of concentration"--Gautama's description of concentration. 

 

May I offer from my own writing?

"Lately I've written about what I consider to be two mechanisms of support for the lower spine, and their coordination in the natural movement of breath.* By natural here I mean "autonomic", a movement of inhalation or exhalation that takes place without any conscious activity in the body to effect the breath.

That there could even be a challenge in experiencing such a breath with full awareness is the open secret of meditative states. When Yuanwu wrote, "When will you ever cease?", he pointed to the moment when the force of gravity is the only agency in the movement of breath, when mind and body drop off yet the body is upright."

(from here)
 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Bindi]

There is no hacking and there is no swift blow. As Dwai wisely states, there is only "being" or not. With being, vasanas just fade away...

 

Yet this is hacking, is it not?

 

The attempt to get rid of ego by methods other than self-enquiry is akin to a thief turning policeman to apprehend the thief that is himself. Self-enquiry, when carried out on a regular basis over a period of time, results in the mind becoming introverted and vasanas or deep-rooted cravings – that cause the ego to rise – becoming extinct. When the vasanas become extinct the mind also disappears, being absorbed in the light of one reality, the eternal Self.

 

And this hacking at least requires effort.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bindi

[3bob]

with mind springing from the Self it will never be destroyed or disappear per-se, but attachments to it can end and veils can be lifted - so in that way one's attachments and veils about it are destroyed and disappear.   

 

Spirit does not begrudge the mind anymore than the Tao begrudges the ten thousand.

[Jetsun]

I think the circus happens when the non-dual understanding is intellectual, and hasn't been won by hard work. Examining the false self is hard work and cannot involve illusion or delusion if you are to actually progress on the road towards Self-realisation.

I agree with your point about the intellectual. But realisation doesn't have to be won or even be hard work, some people just get spontaneously realised, like Eckhart Tolle. We often equate our regular understanding of cause and effect with the spiritual path, but in reality you don't have to earn it because it is already your nature and can be realised by anyone at any time.

 

Yet in terms of Vasanas one thing I read Amma say about them is a certain amount of them can be cleared through discipline, which is why most traditional paths and monastic traditions had quite a strict code of discipline. But the rest will only clear with divine grace, so there is nothing you can really do as an ego to remove them except set yourself up in situations where grace is more likely to occur, or get help from those who have some command over directing divine grace.

[Marblehead]

"Long ago, a certain Chuang Tzu dreamt he was a butterfly -- a butterfly fluttering here and there on a whim, happy and carefree, knowing nothing of Chuang Tzu. Then all of a sudden he woke to find that he was, beyond all doubt, Chuang Tzu. Who knows if it was Chuang Tzu dreaming a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming Chuang Tzu?" --

 

When that is read word for word, without leaving any words out and without adding any words, it is obvious that Chuang knew he was not a butterfly but had only dreamed of being such.

[Jeff]

Yet this is hacking, is it not?

 

And this hacking at least requires effort.

Self inquiry is a game that the ego/mind likes to play. Jetsun has some very good advice here...

 

...

Yet in terms of Vasanas one thing I read Amma say about them is a certain amount of them can be cleared through discipline, which is why most traditional paths and monastic traditions had quite a strict code of discipline. But the rest will only clear with divine grace, so there is nothing you can really do as an ego to remove them except set yourself up in situations where grace is more likely to occur, or get help from those who have some command over directing divine grace.

[3bob]

none have command over directing divine grace, for if someone did then it would no longer be such....(including a Self realized master who would also no longer be such)   what one may have command over is getting themselves out of the way so that Spirit can work through them without resistance. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

That sure sounds easy.

[Jeff]

none have command over directing divine grace, for if someone did then it would no longer be such....(including a Self realized master)   what one may have command over is getting themselves out of the way so that Spirit can work through them without resistance.

 

Since you have been quoting the Bible lately, I thought you might enjoy this verse...

 

Matthew 21:21-22

21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

[Marblehead]

I guess no one has asked for peace on Earth between all mankind yet.