Effort vs no-effort

[Jeff]

I guess no one has asked for peace on Earth between all mankind yet.

For that you would only have to wipe out all "free will". Make everyone just a drone of the mother ship...

[3bob]

Jeff,

Manipulating mind energies and forms is not at the level of Grace although it may be kosher within certain levels of spiritual law to do so.  Btw. such mental manipulations can also be done at the hellish levels motivated by malice.

[Jetsun]

none have command over directing divine grace, for if someone did then it would no longer be such....(including a Self realized master)   what one may have command over is getting themselves out of the way so that Spirit can work through them without resistance. 

 

Yeah, but there is the contradiction that only by complete surrender do you gain mastery.

 

For example if you see someone like Mother Meera she will touch your temples then look into your eyes, and has enough surrender to the divine to bring down divine light into your system at will, which can undo the densest of your Vasanas or karma knots in a few minutes, which may have taken you lifetimes through your own efforts. Is she commanding divine grace... in a way yes, in a way no. 

[3bob]

MH,

"Easy", meaning kind of like wu-wei ?

 

Which btw. could walk right by or bite us on the ass and we might not know it....

Edited February 20, 2017 by 3bob

[3bob]

Jetsun, I'd say such is still not at the "will" of an individual such as you have mentioned nor at the will of a seeker. - Spirit knows better than both and does its will accordingly per Its own all seeing and knowing wisdom.  (in some cases it could be a lot, in some cases it could a little - or anything in between without forcing or lording it over on any party) 

Edited February 20, 2017 by 3bob

[Jeff]

Jeff,

Manipulating mind energies and forms is not at the level of Grace although it may be kosher within certain levels of spiritual law to do so. Btw. such mental manipulations can also be done at the hellish levels motivated by malice.

That is not what Jesus is describing.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Jeff

[3bob]

Jeff, I'm not going to add much in the way of hitting each other over the head with Bible quotes, we already have enough of that going on with Hindu and Buddhist related quotes...(along with some Taoist related ones thrown into the mix)  ;-) 

[Marblehead]

And then Marblehead keeps popping up as well.

 

Most members here would like to see a Marblehead pop-up blocker they could click on.

[Jeff]

Jeff, I'm not going to add much in the way of hitting each other over the head with Bible quotes, we already have enough of that going on with Hindu and Buddhist related quotes...(along with some Taoist related ones thrown into the mix)  ;-)

 

Good point. Since there is not the interest, I will edit my earlier posts appropriately.

[Marblehead]

Oh, No.  Please don't edit.  The posts were in context with the subject matter.

[Jeff]

Oh, No.  Please don't edit.  The posts were in context with the subject matter.

Agreed. Just took out one quote and left the response.

[Mark Foote]

Just kidding, MH.

 

Jeff, you have a way of posting quotes as though their meaning and relevance in the current discussion should be self-evident.  Maybe so, and I will be the first to acknowledge that establishing context is often opening the door to contradiction, yet I can't help but wonder at your meaning sometimes.

 

If it's good for you, it's bound to be good for some of the rest of us here.  Lead on, McDuff!  (Keep 'em honest, MH & 3Bob!) 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Jeff]

Just kidding, MH.

 

Jeff, you have a way of posting quotes as though their meaning and relevance in the current discussion should be self-evident.  Maybe so, and I will be the first to acknowledge that establishing context is often opening the door to contradiction, yet I can't help but wonder at your meaning sometimes.

 

If it's good for you, it's bound to be good for some of the rest of us here.  Lead on, McDuff!  (Keep 'em honest, MH & 3Bob!) 

Good to know, as I guess I thought they were self evident. Can you give an example of one that you found confusing? Then maybe I could better explain it or give more context?

[3bob]

I vote no on a MH pop-up blocker

[Mark Foote]

I vote no on a MH pop-up blocker

 

Need that 3bob, MH blocker...

[Mark Foote]

3bob, on 20 Feb 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

Jeff,

Manipulating mind energies and forms is not at the level of Grace although it may be kosher within certain levels of spiritual law to do so. Btw. such mental manipulations can also be done at the hellish levels motivated by malice.

That is not what Jesus is describing.

 

 

What was Jesus describing?

[Jeff]

What was Jesus describing?

Thought about going back and editing, but that would seem to be even more confusing. In my original post to 3bob, I quoted...

 

Matthew 21:21-22

21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

What Jesus is saying that when you are beyond doubt (and hence mind stuff, perfect clarity - son of God) you can do stuff, including help others like Jetsun described in his earlier post about Amma. The gospels describe this as being "joint heirs" in Christ.

 

Romans 8

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

That glorification is summed up well in the gospel of Thomas...

 

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

 

The "reign over all" is the joint heir with Christ of a son of God. Or if you prefer something from the Old Testament...

 

Psalms 82:5-6

 5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

 

That make sense now? Also, see the difference of view from what 3bob was describing related to Self?

[3bob]

Jeff, Individual souls or "Sons of God" doing this or that by law within mental or even casual light realms is still not at the level of Grace, with Grace being at and of Source.  (which is not knocking individual souls acts of compassion and love)

Edited February 20, 2017 by 3bob

[Jeff]

Jeff, Individual souls or "Sons of God" doing this or that by law within mental or even casual light realms is still not at the level of Grace, with Grace being at and of Source.  (which is not knocking individual souls acts of compassion and love)

if you believe it, then I am sure that if probably does apply to you.

 

But, for the rest of us...

 

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

- Gospel of Thomas

 

(Mark Foote - This quote is showing that believing that realms or even the kingdom of God is beyond you like 3bob is trying to state with his law, is incorrect. We are all everything itself. Basically, like saying that we are all Buddha when you clear away the crap. The key is to just "know yourself".)

[neti neti]

This kind of stuff can be absolutely irritating to many people because of the attachment to ideas (even the idea of knowledge).

 

To be is to know. All other knowing is not being. In not being they are not knowing.

 

Hari Om Tat Sat

 

Agreed. However, to avoid confusion, please allow me to illustrate your statement for clarity.

 

"To be is to know", should convey the profound sense of "pure being". That is, being the "ground of being", wherein one is not conscious of being or, without the sense of "I am." The idea is similar to the eye analogy, in that the eye is unable to see itself.

 

"All other knowing is not being" or, whatever you know cannot be you or, the eye cannot be that which it sees.

 

"In not being they are not knowing" is a bit ambiguous. Because the statement is true in the case of mistaken identity, but false in that "pure being" is the "state" of "not-knowing". Or, there can be no knowledge known separate from Itself. Or, primordial being is knowledge itself.

 

As Nisargadatta made clear, "pure being" may as well be labeled "non-being", as the Absolute isn't being anything in particular. In theory, it is the "not-a-thingness" which makes "things" possible.

 

Now, this isn't to be mistaken for the "Witness" which believes it can perceive the Absolute. The true witness, the Self of All, is the witness of consciousness. The eye cannot see itself... and even a mirror can only reflect an image.

 

Ramakant Maharaj calls it, your "Unidentified Identity."

 

With this illustration in view, one should be able to imagine how it's possible to remain unaware of thoughts, as there is no mind in this "stateless state."

[neti neti]

"As long as you don't have the understanding of what you are, all the efforts and trouble are inevitable: they are automatically there. But once you get an inkling of what it is that you really are, there is no need for any effort, or for any trouble to arise.

 

In earlier stages, there is self-love, but that love is formless. In the later stages, even that self-love goes. Then witnessing occurs of the self-love being absent.

 

I am describing my state; it is something like a hollow stick, a hollow tube. No self-love being present, the love for existence has vanished; yet existence is there and activities are taking place. Like Brahma, Vishnu, or Iswara, I have not taken any pose or stance, because there is no material to support it." -The Ultimate Medicine

[3bob]

Jeff, It's strange to me that you keep bringing up and interpreting dualistic Christianly as if it were non-dual, and which non-dualistic  schools and teachers would refute as far as I know... for two in one is still dual - for instance in the "joint heirs" quote there are multiple great souls in golden soul bodies which is wonderful - but not - Brahman beyond such categories.  (btw. the "casual" realm  heaven is also both within and without) 

[Bindi]

Self inquiry is a game that the ego/mind likes to play. Jetsun has some very good advice here...

 

 

The practice of Self-inquiry, called Atma-vichara in Sanskrit, is the most important meditation practice in the Vedantic tradition.  It is the main practice of the yoga of knowledge (Jnana Yoga), which itself is traditionally regarded as the highest of the yogas because it takes us most directly to liberation.

Self-inquiry is the primary method through which Self-realization-- the realization of our true nature beyond mind and body--is achieved.

 

[bUT]

 

... the path of Self-inquiry demands a certain ripeness or readiness of mind that may require other practices to develop – Swami J

 

Perhaps this was the error that Ramana introduced, beginning with 'Who am I' inquiry instead of ending with it, which then allowed the ego-based mind game that is Neo-advaita to flourish in the West.

 

What do you think of the Western tradition 'Know Thyself'?

Edited February 21, 2017 by Bindi

[dwai]

The challenge with your definition goes to what may be subconscious level thoughts, not yet noticed by the conscious mind. Like... I need to have another cigarette...

If they are not in the conscious mind then they are not thoughts maybe? Maybe they are "seeds" that will ripen into thoughts?

 

This is an interesting topic to explore further imho.

[dwai]

The practice of Self-inquiry, called Atma-vichara in Sanskrit, is the most important meditation practice in the Vedantic tradition. It is the main practice of the yoga of knowledge (Jnana Yoga), which itself is traditionally regarded as the highest of the yogas because it takes us most directly to liberation.

Self-inquiry is the primary method through which Self-realization-- the realization of our true nature beyond mind and body--is achieved.

 

[bUT]

 

... the path of Self-inquiry demands a certain ripeness or readiness of mind that may require other practices to develop – Swami J

 

Perhaps this was the error that Ramana introduced, beginning with 'Who am I' inquiry instead of ending with it, which then allowed the ego-based mind game that is Neo-advaita to flourish in the West.

 

What do you think of the Western tradition 'Know Thyself'?

No "who am I" is an excellent practice for beginners too imho. All it takes is a sincerity of practice and that will lead us to the I AM...