Effort vs no-effort

[Spotless]

There is a state beyond ego which very few seem to achieve. For example:

 

In the case of Sri Ramana, the ego ended in the experience in Madurai, and from that moment onwards, Sri Ramana says there was no change in his experience. That is consistent with Sri Ramana’s description of Sahaja Samadhi.

 

The case if Sri Nisargadatta is quite different.

 

Sri Nisargadatta continued until the end of his life to describe the changes that were occurring. For example he said that previously he thought he was free of the ‘I am the body’ identification but that now he could see that some had remained, etc.

 

In Sahaja Samadhi there is no longer an entity that can undergo changes in the level of ‘I am the body’ identification and there is no longer an entity that can go on learning about itself and there are no parts in the Self so that one part can be revealed to another part.

 

Thus the state that Sri Ramana Maharshi was in is called Sahaja Samadhi. The state that Sri Nisargadatta was in and out of and in and out of is called kevala samadhi.

 

Also Sri Nisargadatta had the view that after Self-Realization there is an endless journey of discovering oneself. Both these are consistent with those who go in and out of kevala Samadhi. However those descriptions are completely inconsistent with Sahaja Samadhi.

 

http://albigen.com/uarelove/sahaja.htm

This is excellent - you have read well and referred to the texts well and have a conceptual understanding but it is very far from an experiential understanding. You frequently appear to demean Awakening - yet it is what many traditions refer to when they speak of someone who was working with a teacher and suddenly attained Enlightenment. It is the shift to the Enlightening state.

 

Whether you wish to label it, put a lid on it and package it is up to you - Sahaja Samadhi is a vogue topic lately and not new - but what you do not see is the consistent essential essence that is in both of the above mentioned Samadhis - and this will not be seen conceptually.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Spotless

[Bindi]

Just look at all buddhist "completion stage" practices. They are all about drawing upon the support of past Buddhas.

 

"When true egolessness of things and persons is understood, discrimination ceases to assert itself; the lower mind-system ceases to fuction; the various Bodhisattva stages are followed one after another; the Bodhisattva is able to utter his ten inexhaustible vows and is anointed by all the Buddhas."

-Lankavatara sutra

 

Nearing death, Buddha gave this advice...

 

"Therefore, O Ananda, be ye lamps unto yourselves. Rely on yourselves, and do not rely on external help. Hold fast to the truth as a lamp. Seek salvation alone in the truth. Look not for assistance to any one besides yourselves.

 

"And how, Ananda, can a brother be a lamp unto himself, rely on himself only and not on any external help, holding fast to the truth as his lamp and seeking salvation in the truth alone, looking not for assistance to any one besides himself? Herein, O Ananda, let a brother, as he dwells in the body, so regard the body that he, being strenuous, thoughtful, and mindful, may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the body's cravings. While subject to sensations let him continue so to regard the sensations that he, being strenuous, thoughtful, and mindful, may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the sensations. And so, also, when he thinks or reasons, or feels, let him so regard his thoughts that being strenuous, thoughtful and mindful he may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the craving due to ideas, or to reasoning, or to feeling.

 

"Those who, either now or after I am dead, shall be lamps unto themselves, relying upon themselves only and not relying upon any external help, but holding fast to the truth as their lamp, and seeking their salvation in the truth alone, and shall not look for assistance to any one besides themselves, it is they, Ananda, among my bhikkhus, who shall reach the very topmost height! But they must be anxious to learn."

[3bob]

Jetsun nailed it. (as far as nails can go)

Edited February 21, 2017 by 3bob

[3bob]

so without devotion/emotion in some way and regardless of path all of this stuff is burn out - ime.

Edited February 21, 2017 by 3bob

[Bindi]

This is excellent - you have read well and referred to the texts well and have a conceptual understanding but it is very far from an experiential understanding. You frequently appear to demean Awakening - yet it is what many traditions refer to when they speak of someone who was working with a teacher and suddenly attained Enlightenment. It is the shift to the Enlightening state.

 

Whether you wish to label it, put a lid on it and package it is up to you - Sahaja Samadhi is a vogue topic lately and not new - but what you do not see is the consistent essential essence that is in both of the above mentioned Samadhis - and this will not be see conceptually.

 

Sri Nisargadatta over-estimated his attainment, he was deluded by his ego, yet he is considered an enlightened man by some. It pays to be highly discerning, discernment should be considered the greatest siddhi of them all.

[Jeff]

Nearing death, Buddha gave this advice...

 

"Therefore, O Ananda, be ye lamps unto yourselves. Rely on yourselves, and do not rely on external help. Hold fast to the truth as a lamp. Seek salvation alone in the truth. Look not for assistance to any one besides yourselves.

 

"And how, Ananda, can a brother be a lamp unto himself, rely on himself only and not on any external help, holding fast to the truth as his lamp and seeking salvation in the truth alone, looking not for assistance to any one besides himself? Herein, O Ananda, let a brother, as he dwells in the body, so regard the body that he, being strenuous, thoughtful, and mindful, may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the body's cravings. While subject to sensations let him continue so to regard the sensations that he, being strenuous, thoughtful, and mindful, may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the sensations. And so, also, when he thinks or reasons, or feels, let him so regard his thoughts that being strenuous, thoughtful and mindful he may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the craving due to ideas, or to reasoning, or to feeling.

 

"Those who, either now or after I am dead, shall be lamps unto themselves, relying upon themselves only and not relying upon any external help, but holding fast to the truth as their lamp, and seeking their salvation in the truth alone, and shall not look for assistance to any one besides themselves, it is they, Ananda, among my bhikkhus, who shall reach the very topmost height! But they must be anxious to learn."

Sutra quote?

 

This is describing very early stage stuff as he is talking about body sensations. It is way before the "cessation of the mind system" and not realization/Buddhahood. Also, notice at the end how the sutra says that "they must be anxious to learn" to reach the "very topmost height". As one becomes a Buddha, all other Buddhas are seen as overlapping (or a subset of) themselves. It is the same concept as I described earlier regarding a "son of God".

[Jeff]

Sri Nisargadatta over-estimated his attainment, he was deluded by his ego, yet he is considered an enlightened man by some. It pays to be highly discerning, discernment should be considered the greatest siddhi of them all.

Very bold statement...

[Jeff]

You only consider one apparently single lifetime. Spiritual evolution traverses many apparent lifetimes...

Karma plays a HUGE role until the abidence in the Self is remembered....

While I agree with your point in general, there is no abidence in the Self for a Buddha...

[Bindi]

165. By oneself is evil done;
by oneself is one defiled.
By oneself is evil left undone;
by oneself is one made pure.
Purity and impurity depend on oneself;
no one can purify another.

 

The Dhammapada:

[Pilgrim]

So does that mean that when you follow your loop and return to society, "you" are no longer there? You don't interact with any of those people in society?  You make no decisions or choices with the people you interact with?

Oh you know better than that.

[Jeff]

There is a state beyond ego which very few seem to achieve. For example:

 

In the case of Sri Ramana, the ego ended in the experience in Madurai, and from that moment onwards, Sri Ramana says there was no change in his experience. That is consistent with Sri Ramana’s description of Sahaja Samadhi.

 

The case if Sri Nisargadatta is quite different.

 

Sri Nisargadatta continued until the end of his life to describe the changes that were occurring. For example he said that previously he thought he was free of the ‘I am the body’ identification but that now he could see that some had remained, etc.

 

In Sahaja Samadhi there is no longer an entity that can undergo changes in the level of ‘I am the body’ identification and there is no longer an entity that can go on learning about itself and there are no parts in the Self so that one part can be revealed to another part.

 

Thus the state that Sri Ramana Maharshi was in is called Sahaja Samadhi. The state that Sri Nisargadatta was in and out of and in and out of is called kevala samadhi.

 

Also Sri Nisargadatta had the view that after Self-Realization there is an endless journey of discovering oneself. Both these are consistent with those who go in and out of kevala Samadhi. However those descriptions are completely inconsistent with Sahaja Samadhi.

 

http://albigen.com/uarelove/sahaja.htm

I am not saying who is enlightened and who is not, but...

 

Like Spotless says, I do not see your logic here at all. You could also just as easily say that Ramana was stuck in a deluded belief that he was "done". He had just stopped moving forward, while Sir Nisargadatta was more honest and continued to deepen into his realization.

[Bindi]

Very bold statement...

 

With even a shred of ego left delusion remains. Where delusion remains there is no Self-realisation.

 

Why are there so many people who want to delude themselves about their level of attainment? Merely a different disguise for ego to wear.

[Bindi]

I am not saying who is enlightened and who is not, but...

 

Like Spotless says, I do not see your logic here at all. You could also just as easily say that Ramana was stuck in a deluded belief that he was "done". He had just stopped moving forward, while Sir Nisargadatta was more honest and continued to deepen into his realization.

 

I'm not comparing him to Ramana here though, I am saying Sri Nisargadatta was deluded by ego, deepening is not 'done'.

[Bindi]

Sutra quote?

 

This is describing very early stage stuff as he is talking about body sensations. It is way before the "cessation of the mind system" and not realization/Buddhahood. Also, notice at the end how the sutra says that "they must be anxious to learn" to reach the "very topmost height". As one becomes a Buddha, all other Buddhas are seen as overlapping (or a subset of) themselves. It is the same concept as I described earlier regarding a "son of God".

 

276. You yourself must make an effort. The Tathagatas (Buddhas) are only preachers. The thoughtful who enter the way are freed from the bondage of Mara. The Dhammapada.

[3bob]

there is no Buddha without their Mother, and remember that the term "Buddha" is in no way limited to Buddhism.

[Pilgrim]

You have people like Chogyam Trungpa, who was an alcoholic and sexually promiscuous, yet most who knew him said he was highly realised, the video of his death suggests he may have achieved rainbow body also even though he drunk himself to death.

 

One of the most fundamental personal realisations I have had is that awakening never has to fit in to our minds preconceptions of what it should look like. Yet it is a tricky area as some do use it to excuse all kinds of abusive behaviour.

 

This is a very good point. For some reason people have latched onto the idea that saints should act saintly.

 

For some reason Gurus should have no warts.

 

For some reason it should be white flowing robes and Moses like stature.

 

If someone thinks that is it then God help them they are in for a big dissapointment. That type of person never existed in the first place. When you come into that types presence better leave your wallet at home.

 

One of my favorite historic figures in Yoga Literature of Bengal is Trilanga Swami highly advanced and was something like 400 pounds walking aroud stark naked.

 

He was known to pull some pretty outrageous stunts to get his point across and there are many stories of highly advanced yogis that also were Opium users and tobacco users and drunks.

 

Could it be that perhaps once they got it they are just having some fun not carying too much about life or how long they will be in it because they realized it is a difference that makes no difference at all?

 

Maybe but then again they could just be regular people that are having a ball.

 

Except some of them are known to do things that ordinary people can not. Drinking tubes of Lie for example, shitting in their own hand and transforming it into sandal paste aroma and all, to prove the point of nothing making a difference, eating hot coals, being imprisoned only to be found on the roof of the jailhouse, walking on water the reports go on and on.

 

Is there a difference to the self?

 

Not one Iota.

[Bindi]

This is a very good point. For some reason people have latched onto the idea that saints should act saintly.

 

For some reason Gurus should have no warts.

 

For some reason it should be white flowing robes and Moses like stature.

 

If someone thinks that is it then God help them they are in for a big dissapointment. That type of person never existed in the first place. When you come into that types presence better leave your wallet at home.

 

One of my favorite historic figures in Yoga Literature of Bengal is Trilanga Swami highly advanced and was something like 400 pounds walking aroud stark naked.

 

He was known to pull some pretty outrageous stunts to get his point across and there are many stories of highly advanced yogis that also were Opium users and tobacco users and drunks.

 

Could it be that perhaps once they got it they are just having some fun not carying too much about life or how long they will be in it because they realized it is a difference that makes no difference at all?

 

Maybe but then again they could just be regular people that are having a ball.

 

Except some of them are known to do things that ordinary people can not. Drinking tubes of Lie for example, shitting in their own hand and transforming it into sandal paste aroma and all, to prove the point of nothing making a difference, eating hot coals, being imprisoned only to be found on the roof of the jailhouse, walking on water the reports go on and on.

 

Is there a difference to the self?

 

Not one Iota.

 

Have any of these feats ever been recorded?

[Jeff]

165. By oneself is evil done;

by oneself is one defiled.

By oneself is evil left undone;

by oneself is one made pure.

Purity and impurity depend on oneself;

no one can purify another.

 

The Dhammapada:

 

 

I think you are missing the point of this passage (or it is just a really bad translation).  There is no "oneself" in Buddhism.  That is why the words talk about evil and defiled, purity and impurity... Those are concepts of the mind.  And yes... If you believe that you are a separate impure and evil oneself (ego based), than no one can help you...

[Pilgrim]

It's a matter of perspective, or levels of understanding. At its a core, a basic confounding of the subject which was never the object. The ultimate understanding is that there is no jiva or even the concept of a jiva(and therefore no jivanmukta).

 

Or said another way, I am, before the body ever came into the picture. But from the level of understanding that the jiva has any reality unto itself, the idea is that behaviors continue as they must. For the jiva and jivanmukta alike, they will continue through the bodily form in accordance with one's yet to be exhausted "vasanas." The difference lies in that by being firmly established in the Absolute, the jivanmukta has transcended them and merely plays out the latent tendencies of the bodily form within his "final incarnation." Whereas the jiva, trapped in bondage by chains of his own making, will continue to "reincarnate" in accordance with those "vasanas" unless they are transcended by Self-realization.

 

From the level of understanding that jiva is Shiva, the jiva can do nothing as the jiva does not exist. Thus, any question, including the question of bondage is a moot point. Further... what talk can be had of earthly pleasures when one is, in reality, an embodiment of uninterrupted Bliss Absolute?

 

According to this description Shiva would be the host machine and all the JIva would be virtual machines. A software centric approach.

 

Lol you still need substantial hardware in the datacenter to pull this off.

 

[Jeff]

I'm not comparing him to Ramana here though, I am saying Sri Nisargadatta was deluded by ego, deepening is not 'done'.

 

 

Ok. Got it.  So Sri Nisargadatta is not enlightened in your book.  So how do you know that Ramana is?  How do you know that he was not simply "deluded by ego" too? Just not stuck in some zombie like state?

[Jeff]

According to this description Shiva would be the host machine and all the JIva would be virtual machines. A software centric approach.

 

Lol you still need substantial hardware in the datacenter to pull this off.

 

 

Not sure I would quite agree with your analogy as with a computer the host machine would be aware of the virtual machines activity and be able to track the data flows.

[dwai]

While I agree with your point in general, there is no abidence in the Self for a Buddha...

 

Bwahahaha Self, Non-Self, Emptiness, Dao, Brahman, Atman are all labels. It is just presence.

[Pilgrim]

Yes, I would agree with the point that what needs to be investigated is "who you are"...

 

It is your "null and void" point where there is the disagreement. While all that appears (or is heard with your quote) in consciousness, such consciousness is reflection (or translation) in mind. Dive as deep as you want into your Self consciousness, and I can still find your differentiated signature of primordial being.

 

Buddha would describe it like this...

 

When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

 

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation. There is one danger against which they must be on their guard. Disciples may not appreciate that the mind-system, because of its accumulated habit-energy, goes on fuctioning, more or less unconsciously, as long as they live. They may sometimes think that they can expedite the attainment of their goal of tranquilisation by entirely supressing the activities of the mind-system. This is a mistake, for even if the activities of the mind are supressed, the mind will still go on fuctioning because the seeds of habit-energy will still remain in it. What they think is extinction of mind, is really the non-fuctioning of the mind's external world to which they are no longer attached. That is, the goal if tranquilisation is to be reached not by supressing all mind activity but by getting rid of discriminations and attachments.

 

-Lankavatara sutra

 

Need to drop those pesky vasanas...

 

 

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

Why?

 

[Jeff]

Bwahahaha Self, Non-Self, Emptiness, Dao, Brahman, Atman are all labels. It is just presence.

 

 

Yes, they are all labels, they just label different "things" or relative depth of perception.

[dwai]

Yes, they are all labels, they just label different "things" or relative depth of perception.

 

Its better to just be...