Effort vs no-effort

[3bob]

what about another type of effort/will - namely the "effort" and or will needed for the creation/emanation of the universe/multiverse,  to maintain/sustain and it, and then to dissolve/withdraw it for the next cycle to start all over again?

Edited March 2, 2017 by 3bob

[dwai]

what about another type of effort/will - namely the "effort" and or will needed for the creation/emanation of the universe/multiverse,  to maintain/sustain and it, and then to dissolve/withdraw it for the next cycle to start all over again?

 

That is not will...that is it's very nature. Waves in the ocean, so to speak.

Edited March 2, 2017 by dwai

[3bob]

ah but if Supreme Brahman has no will in effect then chaos, not order would be the rule, and the Sovereign of Brahmaloka would not exist. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by 3bob

[dwai]

ah but if Supreme Brahman has no will in effect then chaos, not order would be the rule, and the Sovereign would not exist. 

 

The universe is a side-effect, not a "creation" per se. There are rules of course, but they are in the domain of duality only.

[3bob]

I'd say Shakti is the universe - eternally connected to and non-dual with Shiva, thus not just a side effect or relative illusion.

[dwai]

I'd say Shakti is the universe - eternally connected to and non-dual with Shiva, thus not just a side effect or relative illusion.

 

Yes, Brahman/Shiva-Shakti and I Am are inextricably inter-related. Form = Void, Void = Form.

I AM is the portal between Brahman and Jagat.

Edited March 2, 2017 by dwai

[Jeff]

Yes, Brahman/Shiva-Shakti and I Am are inextricably inter-related. Form = Void, Void = Form.

I AM is the portal between Brahman and Jagat.

 

 

Oh no.... Not again.... 

 

[Pilgrim]

Oh no.... Not again.... 

 

Oh yes It's Popeye Time again!

 

[Mark Foote]

what about another type of effort/will - namely the "effort" and or will needed for the creation/emanation of the universe/multiverse,  to maintain/sustain and it, and then to dissolve/withdraw it for the next cycle to start all over again?

 

"...the breath that reaches everywhere in the mind of friendliness"--ok, more correctly: 

 

"[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… sympathetic joy… equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence."

(MN I 38, Pali Text Society volume I pg 48)

 

"The excellence of the heart's release" through the mind of compassion, said Gautama, constituted the first of the immaterial concentrative states (the states characterized by equanimity with respect to uniformity); "the excellence of the heart's release" through the mind of sympathetic joy, the second; and "the excellence of the heart's release" through the mind of equanimity, the third (SN V 118-120, Pali Text Society volume V pg 101-102).

 

 

'Mayu, Zen master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?"

"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Mayu replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."

"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. Mayu just kept fanning himself.'

 

("Genjo Koan", Dogen; tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi. Revised at San Francisco Zen Center, and later at Berkeley Zen Center; published (2000) in Tanahashi, Enlightenment Unfolds (Boston: Shambhala), 35-9. Earlier version in Tanahashi 1985 (Moon in a Dewdrop), 69-73, also Tanahashi and Schneider 1994 (Essential Zen))

Edited March 2, 2017 by Mark Foote

[dwai]

Listen to this section of the satsang I'd posted earlier --

 

https://youtu.be/TfCPPzztKYM?t=3119

 

Here Papaji is speaking about him going to Kailash and beyond on foot when he was younger. 

[Bindi]

Can you tell me which Upanishad says that the ego will be destroyed completely? If you read more advanced texts on Advaita Vedanta like Ashtavakra Gita you'll see that they are suggesting something similar to Papaji.

 

I used to believe the same thing as you - that the ego must be "killed", until my teacher told me that there is no need. The ego is needed in order to function in this world. We have to just make it realize that it is subservient to the True Self (He called it Spiritual Mind).  Slowly, as experiences unfolded, I realized that while the ego doesn't "die", it slowly relinquishes control and lets the True Self take over.

The upadhi (limiting adjunct aka body-mind) is only limiting if there is absolute identification with it and it's modifications. Stop the modifications and see that your true self is not the body-mind. Then, further more that all that is, is predicated on that true self.

 

With that being established as a fact, let go of your attachments to the impulses of the body-mind, and be free.

 

What is prarabhda (already acivated) will continue to play out until they run their course or the body-mind ends.

 

When identified with the ego, the Self appears other than what it is. It may appear smaller than a hair's breadth. But know the Self to be infinite. (Shvetashvatara Upanishad. 5:8-9)

 

The supreme Self is neither born nor dies. He cannot be burned, moved, pierced, cut, nor dried. Beyond all attributes, the supreme Self is the eternal witness, ever pure, indivisible, and uncompounded, far beyond the senses and the ego... He is omnipresent, beyond all thought, without action in the external world, without action in the internal world. Detached from the outer and the inner, This supreme Self purifies the impure. (Atma Upanishad. 3)

 

I would say ego being necessary to function in the world is a limiting belief, as is the belief that it is not possible to destroy ego, these beliefs halt the attempt to destroy ego, and with it the possibility of knowing absolute reality. IMO the function of the ego is superseded by a reconditioned mature persona developed through spiritual work. Again IMO this is the work Ramana was involved in in his years of quiet contemplation after his initial Self-realisation as a boy, after which he was unwilling or even unable to interact with people. His ego was destroyed but he hadn't yet created a new persona with which to interact with the world. After his 'heart attack' incident where the energy moved from the right side of his heart to the left side, that mature persona in him was established and became functional. After this event he was able to interact with the people around him again with ease.

 

The ego's phenomenal existence is transcended when you dive into the source from where the 'I'-thought arises. - Ramana Maharshi

 

Reality is simply the loss of ego. Destroy the ego by seeking its identity. Because the ego is no entity it will automatically vanish and reality will shine forth by itself. - Ramana Maharshi

[Prasanna]

David Godman, who has written many books about Ramana and his followers, responds to a question about whether effort or no-effort is needed to realise the Self.

 

This is a very beautiful topic for discussion. The first point is that we must question for whom does the effort is needed and for whom does no effort is applicable. Those people in the worldly life may not have applied any effort in the sense of spiritual seeking, but yet their actions are all efforts towards their spiritual evolution. In the world, everyone of us are in some stage of spiritual development which only an evolved spiritual master can recognize properly. Spiritual personality like Ramana Maharishi, Budhdha, Adi Sankara, Swami Rama Tirtha have all achieved the effortless state of Self Realization in their births because of proper efforts in their previous Janmas. Swami Rama Tirtha says that every individual will be naturally and automatically pushed towards their spiritual evolution and eventual Self Realization beyond which there is no effort needed in life. Lord Shri Krishna in the Shrimad Bhagavad Gita explains about the effort needed in the spiritual path to get to that state of zero effort existence called Self Realization.It is Karma Yoga, Bhakthi Yoga and Gnana Yoga in approprriate proportions with respect to the composition of the individual personality that alone can lead to the final meditation and eventual Self Realization. Lord krishna says that first a higher noble goal/ideal like Self Realization which is beyond our selfish egoism is necessary. Then that ultimate ideal of Self Realization must be followed with proper efforts of Karma, Bhakthi and Gnana Yogas with dedication, perseverance and consistency of purpose till the goal/ideal is achieved.

I would like to add a few thoughts from the Mundakopanishad. There it is said that a person must take to spiritual pursuit when has analysed the world and life through personal experiences (Parikshya Lokaan...) and who has performed selfless actions (Karmachithaan....). The seeker who has thus done proper analysis and research of life experiences goes to the great spiritual master with utmost humility driven by the real quest to know the ultimate truth alone. For such a person, the yearning to know the truth will be a burning from within which is what is termed as Mumukshathwa in Sanskrit. That conscious yearning for spiritual liberation to to liberate from the worldly bondage and achieve Self Realization is what will help us progress in the path.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Prasanna

[3bob]

Indeed, a burning to put away doubt once and for all !

[dwai]

When identified with the ego, the Self appears other than what it is. It may appear smaller than a hair's breadth. But know the Self to be infinite. (Shvetashvatara Upanishad. 5:8-9)

 

The supreme Self is neither born nor dies. He cannot be burned, moved, pierced, cut, nor dried. Beyond all attributes, the supreme Self is the eternal witness, ever pure, indivisible, and uncompounded, far beyond the senses and the ego... He is omnipresent, beyond all thought, without action in the external world, without action in the internal world. Detached from the outer and the inner, This supreme Self purifies the impure. (Atma Upanishad. 3)

 

I would say ego being necessary to function in the world is a limiting belief, as is the belief that it is not possible to destroy ego, these beliefs halt the attempt to destroy ego, and with it the possibility of knowing absolute reality. IMO the function of the ego is superseded by a reconditioned mature persona developed through spiritual work. Again IMO this is the work Ramana was involved in in his years of quiet contemplation after his initial Self-realisation as a boy, after which he was unwilling or even unable to interact with people. His ego was destroyed but he hadn't yet created a new persona with which to interact with the world. After his 'heart attack' incident where the energy moved from the right side of his heart to the left side, that mature persona in him was established and became functional. After this event he was able to interact with the people around him again with ease.

 

The ego's phenomenal existence is transcended when you dive into the source from where the 'I'-thought arises. - Ramana Maharshi

 

Reality is simply the loss of ego. Destroy the ego by seeking its identity. Because the ego is no entity it will automatically vanish and reality will shine forth by itself. - Ramana Maharshi

See, in the Upanishads there is no discussion of "destroying" ego. Yes statements like "go beyond the senses and ego" are made. Ultimately the ego and mind are non-existent as they too are modifications of the Self itself. Ego is just a delusional complete identification of the Self as body-mind. Once the identification is dropped, it does not matter as they will have been revealed to be really non-different from the Self itself.

[Jeff]

See, in the Upanishads there is no discussion of "destroying" ego. Yes statements like "go beyond the senses and ego" are made. Ultimately the ego and mind are non-existent as they too are modifications of the Self itself. Ego is just a delusional complete identification of the Self as body-mind. Once the identification is dropped, it does not matter as they will have been revealed to be really non-different from the Self itself.

To me, that is quite a stretch from the verses that Bindi has posted. The verses basically say that once the identification has been dropped, they are "gone". Specifically...

 

"Detached from the outer and the inner, This supreme Self purifies the impure. (Atma Upanishad. 3)"

 

Hence, the impure (Ego) would be wiped out (purified away).

[dwai]

To me, that is quite a stretch from the verses that Bindi has posted. The verses basically say that once the identification has been dropped, they are "gone". Specifically...

 

"Detached from the outer and the inner, This supreme Self purifies the impure. (Atma Upanishad. 3)"

 

Hence, the impure (Ego) would be wiped out (purified away).

 

I could say that same about your interpretation

It's okay for us to have different understandings...there are many factors involved in coloring them. 

 

That said, I humbly bow out of the discussion...it is now becoming repetitive

[silent thunder]

Here's yet another view too, just to throw some more ingredients in the broth.

 

In my experience it is not possible to destroy ego.  Ego is a verb, not a noun.

It is possible to disengage and stop egoing, but ego is not born, it does not die and cannot be destroyed.

 

We may stop engaging in ego, or drop the process, but there is nothing there to be destroyed, to me.

[3bob]

apparently many have not seen the clever rat with beady eyes scurrying around in the shadows, for it can not stand the light...

[silent thunder]

i LOVE rats!  Very beneficial critters.

[3bob]

large cats also love rats (to fight and then eat)...but lets try not to get the context mixed up  

[johndoe2012]

The selfing wants to destroy the selfing and thus reinforces the problem of selfing.

 

So the solution is to see the selfing in action and the amount of habit energy invested in the process.

 

No amount of implying can make the selfing real. It is just implying it is real.

[Bindi]

See, in the Upanishads there is no discussion of "destroying" ego. Yes statements like "go beyond the senses and ego" are made. Ultimately the ego and mind are non-existent as they too are modifications of the Self itself. Ego is just a delusional complete identification of the Self as body-mind. Once the identification is dropped, it does not matter as they will have been revealed to be really non-different from the Self itself.

 

 

Perhaps we can at least agree that we do need to go beyond ego and the senses. I'm not stuck on the word 'destroy', I'm happy to go with 'let fall away' or 'let drop' or 'disentangle' etc. I only like the word 'Destroy' because it is a nice strong stance against the ego-self.

 

The next point of contention would then be whether effort or no effort is needed to accomplish this

[3bob]

if our karma encases us with around 50 tons of material it will take at least 50 tons of some type of effort or work to do something about it - strictly math wise - but thankfully we get help beyond just the math of it (so to speak) and if we didn't we could all kiss our buried in karma asses goodbye !

Edited March 4, 2017 by 3bob

[dwai]

Perhaps we can at least agree that we do need to go beyond ego and the senses. I'm not stuck on the word 'destroy', I'm happy to go with 'let fall away' or 'let drop' or 'disentangle' etc. I only like the word 'Destroy' because it is a nice strong stance against the ego-self.

 

The next point of contention would then be whether effort or no effort is needed to accomplish this

If you consider watching this video here effort, then that much effort is needed -- http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43583-the-secret-of-the-five-sheaths-by-swami-sarvapriyananda/#entry741022

[Mark Foote]

dwai, thank you for the videos, but I cannot find the relevant material in them.  Any chance you could summarize in your own words or with a few quotations, along with posting the video? 

 

The eight-fold path is associated with Gautama the Buddha, but he also spoke of the ten-fold path of the adept. 

 

Here's a quote from the Pali Canon, followed by my conclusion regarding the ninth and tenth aspects of ten-fold way:

 

 

“...[an individual], not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attends to solitude grounded on the concentration of mind that is signless. [Their] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [They] comprehend thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the [holy]-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

 

(MN III 108-109, Vol III pg 151-152)

 

Thus, right knowledge is based on first-hand experience of the impermanence of all that may be “effected and thought out”, and right freedom is freedom from the three cankers of “sense-pleasures”, ‘’becoming’’, and “ignorance”.

 

 

Regarding "effort/no effort", Gautama appears to see the same effort at each stage of an individual's spiritual evolution (as it were):

 

" ... those who are novices, not long gone forth (from home), late-comers into this Norm and Discipline,–such... should be roused and admonished for, and established in, the cultivation of the four stations of mindfulness. Of what four and how? (Ye should say this:)

‘Come ye, friends, do ye abide in body contemplating body (as transient), ardent, composed and one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, for insight into body as it really is.

In feelings do ye abide contemplating feelings (as transient), ardent, ...for insight into feelings as they really are. In mind do ye abide contemplating mind (as transient), ardent, ...for insight into mind as it really is.

In mind-states do ye abide contemplating mind states (as transient), ardent, composed, one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, for insight into mind-states as they really are.’

[Those] who are imperfect, who have not attained their goal, who abide aspiring for the peace from bondage unsurpassed,–they also abide in body contemplating body (as transient), ardent, composed, one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, for the comprehension of body... So also do they abide ... for the comprehension of feelings, of mind, and of mind-states.

[Those] who are Arahants. destroyers of the [cankers], who have lived the life, done what was to be done, who have removed the burden, who have won their highest good, who have utterly destroyed the fetters of becoming, who by perfect knowledge have become free,–they also abide in body contemplating body (as transient), ardent, composed, one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, with respect to body being released.

So also in feelings, they are released from feelings... and in mind, they are released.

In mind-states they abide contemplating mind-states (as transient), ardent, composed, one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, in respect of mind-states they are released.”

 

(SN V 144, Vol V pg 123-124)

 

 

I made a summary of the teachings of Gautama contained in the first four Nikayas, about twenty years ago, and the quotes above are from the last few pages:

 

Making Sense of the Pali Sutta:  the Wheel of the Sayings

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Mark Foote