Effort vs no-effort

[Bindi]

Yes many eyewitness accounts recorded.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Varanasi-Legends-Teachings-Trailingaswami/dp/8190120085

 

The book is very expensive I waited for the price to drop and purchased at $35.00 bu that is the lowest I have ever seen it.

 

sorry, I meant video footage, have any of these feats been recorded on video?

[Pilgrim]

No unfortunately this was going on in the 1800's.

 

I know not much proof but consider this. I suspect you have been witness to things unexplainable and if you have then there is equal reason to believe as there is to doubt.

 

If not then doubt is the only sane choice.

[3bob]

I have a bad push rod on my Ford truck that needs repair, I asked the Transcendent if he could swing by and pull a miracle on it by manifesting but he said he was pre-disposed as the Source and towards Chevys for the rest of this cosmic cycle,  he did kindly encourage me to muster up the will to fix it myself - after which I said thanks for the eternal support bubba, it's appreciated. See you around.  

 

Thus as I walk through the valley of the manifold I will fear no bad lifters and will keep my pushrods on the straight and narrow all the days of my engines life, behold I make all things new with a trip to the auto parts store. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by 3bob

[Bindi]

No unfortunately this was going on in the 1800's.

 

I know not much proof but consider this. I suspect you have been witness to things unexplainable and if you have then there is equal reason to believe as there is to doubt.

 

If not then doubt is the only sane choice.

 

What could be different about the 1800's that spawned all these miraculous feats, that no longer exists today in the age of video at hand?

[Marblehead]

What could be different about the 1800's that spawned all these miraculous feats, that no longer exists today in the age of video at hand?

 

Revealing too much causes you to look naked.

[Bindi]

The vast majority of people are like Nisargadatta, they have major shifts of awakening which deepen and widen over time. Even if fundamentally he has seen through the illusion there can be all kinds of pockets of self and self based conditioning remaining within the system to work through and wake up, which is a life long process. This is the way I see it in just about all the awake teachers and people I have met. Ramana is the exception rather than the rule and even he needed 3 years after his shift to adapt and settle into it where he went to live alone in a cave.

 

Sounds about right.

[Bindi]

I think you are missing the point of this passage (or it is just a really bad translation).  There is no "oneself" in Buddhism.  That is why the words talk about evil and defiled, purity and impurity... Those are concepts of the mind.  And yes... If you believe that you are a separate impure and evil oneself (ego based), than no one can help you...

 

This is the full passage, I don't believe it is a bad translation. You might somehow have to come to terms with the idea that the Buddha did not endorse dependence, or let go of Buddhism as a support for your own personal opinion.

 

Chapter 12, The Self

 

157. If one holds oneself dear, one should diligently watch oneself. Let the wise man keep vigil during any of the three watches of the night.

 

158. One should first establish oneself in what is proper; then only should one instruct others. Thus the wise man will not be reproached.

 

159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is self-control.

 

160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain.

 

161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem.

 

162. Just as a single creeper strangles the tree on which it grows, even so, a man who is exceedingly depraved harms himself as only an enemy might wish.

 

163. Easy to do are things that are bad and harmful to oneself. But exceedingly difficult to do are things that are good and beneficial.

 

164. Whoever, on account of perverted views, scorns the Teaching of the Perfected Ones, the Noble and Righteous Ones -- that fool, like the bamboo, produces fruits only for self destruction. [14]

 

165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another.

 

166. Let one not neglect one's own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one's own welfare, let one be intent upon the good.

[Pilgrim]

I have a bad push rod on my truck that needs repair, I asked the Transcendent if he could swing by and pull a miracle on it by manifesting but he said he was pre-disposed as the Source and towards Chevys for the rest of this cosmic cycle,  he did kindly encourage me to muster up the will to fix it myself - after which I said thanks for the eternal support bubba, it's appreciated. See you around.  

 

Thus as I walk through the valley of the manifold I will fear no bad lifters and will keep my pushrods on the straight and narrow all the days of my engines life, behold I make all things new with a trip to the auto parts store.

 

Something is odd here I asked the same thing but was told he would rather push a Ford than drive a Chevy.

[Pilgrim]

What could be different about the 1800's that spawned all these miraculous feats, that no longer exists today in the age of video at hand?

It is a very good question one I have often wondered about there were allot of interesting incarnations in those days.

 

Who knows maybe it was all B.S. Then again you are conversing with someone who has met one of these folks from back then face to face.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Pilgrim

[Bindi]

It is a very good question one I have often wondered about there were allot of interesting incarnations in those days.

 

Who knows maybe it was all B.S. Then again you are conversing with someone who has met one of these folks from back then face to face.

 

And did you witness any of his miraculous feats first hand?

[Pilgrim]

Lol Bindi my whole life has been surrounded by what some would think miracles. Yes I have had witnesses.

 

If you are really interested you can read about a very glossed over version here http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43317-kriya-yoga-info/

 

To answer your question directly yes.

 

The biggest miracle of all is the ability to love feel love and be loved. Second to that is life itself, it does not seem a miracle to allot of people but that is just because we are so used to it.

 

Remind me to tell you about Lord Jesus and a Kitten some time.

[neti neti]

I agree what Neti Neti is describing is not it

 

 

That in and of itself is a level. This is also not the end.

 

I like the phrase

 

 

This has the ring of truth to it and is experientially matching. I have written on this in the past without as clean a vocabulary. In my way of speaking I would say it as follows:

 

One of the reasons I practice Kriya Yoga daily, is to die daily. This would be the shut down. These are the various Samadhi States.

 

An intelligent person will say but Pilgrim you have already come back from the Samadhi where there is no heart beat, where there is no breath, where there is nothing remotly able to be told about it because there is no mind.

 

Why then Pilgrim would you continue??

 

I asked myself this but knew the answer before the question was formed.

 

The answer is because with each entry the ability to be more than just gone increases. More refined ability to be present in those places.

 

Other than that even a corpse can achieve the state without heartbeat and breath, but how many can come back?

 

That is an extreme and dangerous state because you are so far removed from living as a human that there is no interest in picking up a mind and returning.

 

Not dangerous to the self but dangerous to this I typing because there are those I love and care about that would suffer not being able to comprehend and no wife should find a corpse like that.

 

This is how I would explain it as my truest form of expression is sharing experience. Well the parts that can be anyway.

 

Perhaps, samahdi isn't it. Perhaps, states and experiences are not it. Perhaps, "coming and going", is not the reality of things.

 

Perhaps, it's neither this, nor that.

[Bindi]

Lol Bindi my whole life has been surrounded by what some would think miracles. Yes I have had witnesses.

 

If you are really interested you can read about a very glossed over version here http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43317-kriya-yoga-info/

 

To answer your question directly yes.

 

The biggest miracle of all is the ability to love feel love and be loved. Second to that is life itself, it does not seem a miracle to allot of people but that is just because we are so used to it.

 

Remind me to tell you about Lord Jesus and a Kitten some time.

 

I mean have you personally witnessed miraculous feats such as "Drinking tubes of Lie for example, shitting in their own hand and transforming it into sandal paste aroma and all, to prove the point of nothing making a difference, eating hot coals, being imprisoned only to be found on the roof of the jailhouse, walking on water" etc.

 

I am interested but could you just write the specifics here?

Edited February 21, 2017 by Bindi

[Pilgrim]

Would you consider a kundalini awakening that left you with MRI verified swollen facet joints in every vertebrae resembling Arthritis at the age of 38 occurring practically overnight or the fact that 4 years later there was / is no evidence a miracle?

 

Would you consider the head and shoulders of a deadman from the 1800's appearing to you and instructing you how to do spiritual practices a miracle? Especially after 20 plus years of being divorced from any of this kind of stuff.

 

Would you consider this same person visiting you in dreams and counseling you over death prior to learning of a Fathers demise whom you had not seen in 13 years a miracle?

 

Would you consider Kechari Mudra coming on it's own within a couple months after that visitation a miracle?

 

How about Nirvakalpa Samadhi within just a few months, or going to the realm of ones own Golden body?

 

Or perhaps penetrating the 5 pointed white star?

 

Would you consider the same person coming to you wide awake and revealing your past life association with them a miracle?

 

Would you consider flying off a motorcycle at 85 miles per hour with just a few scratches and no broken bones a miracle or the man who saw it declaring seeing angles holding you up a miracle?

 

Would you consider being trapped under 8 to 10 feet of water with your hand trapped in the drainage grate passing out only to find your self laying half out of the pool with no one around and gates still locked a miracle when you were the only one there to begin with?

 

Would you consider falling out of a tree 40 feet up and sustaining no injuries a miracle?

 

Would you consider being thrown off of a boat then being ran over by it and seeing the underside with eyes closed and reaching up out of the water grabbing hold of the underside as it passed over you at high speed sustaining no injury a miracle? Multiple witnesses present.

 

Would you consider almost being hit by a greyhound bus moving at high speed and jumping 6 feet straight up and over but it felt like some invisible force propelling you at high speed to get you to safety a miracle?

 

Would you consider stepping on and picking up deadly Florida Water Moccasins without getting bit a miracle?

 

Would you consider rattle snakes slithering across your legs darting their tongues while looking you in the eye then moving on a miracle?

 

Would you consider swimming next to wild Alligators by mistake and not being torn to shreds a miracle?

 

Would you consider going to look at a house with a real estate agent and several friends and the security system goes off and somehow you know the code and turn it off a miracle?

 

Or how about unlocking cars where the keys were left in the ignition but there were key code entry like on 1980 Lincolns

 

Stuff like this is just scratching the surface.

 

If you are of doubtful mind then the only conclusion is I am accident prone, crazy and damned lucky.

[C T]

the power of belief can yield many strange and wonderful things, and can easily be perceived as 'miraculous' when such are nothing more than mere displays of devotional callings, to which some Western eyes might even regard as slightly perverted and unnecessary. 

 

Perhaps a stay in India or some parts of SE Asia will further enhance/pacify one's curious nature, to which the depth is fathomless

 

 

[dwai]

Would you consider a kundalini awakening that left you with MRI verified swollen facet joints in every vertebrae resembling Arthritis at the age of 38 occurring practically overnight or the fact that 4 years later there was / is no evidence a miracle?

 

Would you consider the head and shoulders of a deadman from the 1800's appearing to you and instructing you how to do spiritual practices a miracle? Especially after 20 plus years of being divorced from any of this kind of stuff.

 

Would you consider this same person visiting you in dreams and counseling you over death prior to learning of a Fathers demise whom you had not seen in 13 years a miracle?

 

Would you consider Kechari Mudra coming on it's own within a couple months after that visitation a miracle?

 

How about Nirvakalpa Samadhi within just a few months, or going to the realm of ones own Golden body?

 

Or perhaps penetrating the 5 pointed white star?

 

Would you consider the same person coming to you wide awake and revealing your past life association with them a miracle?

 

Would you consider flying off a motorcycle at 85 miles per hour with just a few scratches and no broken bones a miracle or the man who saw it declaring seeing angles holding you up a miracle?

 

Would you consider being trapped under 8 to 10 feet of water with your hand trapped in the drainage grate passing out only to find your self laying half out of the pool with no one around and gates still locked a miracle when you were the only one there to begin with?

 

Would you consider falling out of a tree 40 feet up and sustaining no injuries a miracle?

 

Would you consider being thrown off of a boat then being ran over by it and seeing the underside with eyes closed and reaching up out of the water grabbing hold of the underside as it passed over you at high speed sustaining no injury a miracle? Multiple witnesses present.

 

Would you consider almost being hit by a greyhound bus moving at high speed and jumping 6 feet straight up and over but it felt like some invisible force propelling you at high speed to get you to safety a miracle?

 

Would you consider stepping on and picking up deadly Florida Water Moccasins without getting bit a miracle?

 

Would you consider rattle snakes slithering across your legs darting their tongues while looking you in the eye then moving on a miracle?

 

Would you consider swimming next to wild Alligators by mistake and not being torn to shreds a miracle?

 

Would you consider going to look at a house with a real estate agent and several friends and the security system goes off and somehow you know the code and turn it off a miracle?

 

Or how about unlocking cars where the keys were left in the ignition but there were key code entry like on 1980 Lincolns

 

Stuff like this is just scratching the surface.

 

If you are of doubtful mind then the only conclusion is I am accident prone, crazy and damned lucky.

 

My Master has some stories like that...yes, yes, yes, yes and yes -- they are miraculous

 

(did I miss some yesses?)

Edited February 22, 2017 by dwai

[Pilgrim]

Dwai,

 

I have lived enough and known enough people to realize that the existance of truly advanced brothers and sisters that fully comprehend how things work is possible as are the frauds.

 

I am not one of these advanced ones just making my way, with a little help. Well maybe allot.

 

If there is anything I can do to pay it forward that is my desire.

[Bindi]

Would you consider a kundalini awakening that left you with MRI verified swollen facet joints in every vertebrae resembling Arthritis at the age of 38 occurring practically overnight or the fact that 4 years later there was / is no evidence a miracle?

 

Would you consider the head and shoulders of a deadman from the 1800's appearing to you and instructing you how to do spiritual practices a miracle? Especially after 20 plus years of being divorced from any of this kind of stuff.

 

Would you consider this same person visiting you in dreams and counseling you over death prior to learning of a Fathers demise whom you had not seen in 13 years a miracle?

 

Would you consider Kechari Mudra coming on it's own within a couple months after that visitation a miracle?

 

How about Nirvakalpa Samadhi within just a few months, or going to the realm of ones own Golden body?

 

Or perhaps penetrating the 5 pointed white star?

 

Would you consider the same person coming to you wide awake and revealing your past life association with them a miracle?

 

Would you consider flying off a motorcycle at 85 miles per hour with just a few scratches and no broken bones a miracle or the man who saw it declaring seeing angles holding you up a miracle?

 

Would you consider being trapped under 8 to 10 feet of water with your hand trapped in the drainage grate passing out only to find your self laying half out of the pool with no one around and gates still locked a miracle when you were the only one there to begin with?

 

Would you consider falling out of a tree 40 feet up and sustaining no injuries a miracle?

 

Would you consider being thrown off of a boat then being ran over by it and seeing the underside with eyes closed and reaching up out of the water grabbing hold of the underside as it passed over you at high speed sustaining no injury a miracle? Multiple witnesses present.

 

Would you consider almost being hit by a greyhound bus moving at high speed and jumping 6 feet straight up and over but it felt like some invisible force propelling you at high speed to get you to safety a miracle?

 

Would you consider stepping on and picking up deadly Florida Water Moccasins without getting bit a miracle?

 

Would you consider rattle snakes slithering across your legs darting their tongues while looking you in the eye then moving on a miracle?

 

Would you consider swimming next to wild Alligators by mistake and not being torn to shreds a miracle?

 

Would you consider going to look at a house with a real estate agent and several friends and the security system goes off and somehow you know the code and turn it off a miracle?

 

Or how about unlocking cars where the keys were left in the ignition but there were key code entry like on 1980 Lincolns

 

Stuff like this is just scratching the surface.

 

If you are of doubtful mind then the only conclusion is I am accident prone, crazy and damned lucky.

 

Yes some of these do suggest that you are in tune with your Higher Self to some extent. Personally I would discount anything to do with kundalini as miraculous though, it is a very powerful energy afterall, and some of the visions that you mention can be just personal mental states. But some of it does seem to be beyond mere luck

[Gerard]

David Godman, who has written many books about Ramana and his followers, responds to a question about whether effort or no-effort is needed to realise the Self.

 

Saint Teresa of Avila, a Carmelite nun and a recluse:

 

Be gentle to others but stern to yourself

 

Prior to that and in the same line of thought and practice, The Buddha:

 

 

[A deva:]

With what is the world tied down?

With the subduing

of what is it freed?

With the abandoning

of what are all bonds

cut through?

 

[The Buddha:]

With desire the world is tied down.

With the subduing

of desire it's freed.

With the abandoning

of desire all bonds

are cut through.

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.069.than.html

 

 

The Self wants and desires HEAPS of THINGS. If you put no effort to free yourself from the root of suffering, karma and rebirth you will never be free. You might as well enjoy the steak as in The Matrix:

 

I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.

 

Practice hard, mindfully and with determination but also sometimes relax a bit before the game starts by all over again.

 

With much Love,

 

[Pilgrim]

Yes some of these do suggest that you are in tune with your Higher Self to some extent. Personally I would discount anything to do with kundalini as miraculous though, it is a very powerful energy afterall, and some of the visions that you mention can be just personal mental states. But some of it does seem to be beyond mere luck

Agreed.

[3bob]

Bwahahaha Self, Non-Self, Emptiness, Dao, Brahman, Atman are all labels. It is just presence.

 

labels through words... which sounds like words don't have much importance yet we come back to Sanskrit and mantra (as one example among many) that use a great deal of words which are very important as part of what could be called spiritual science...

Om 

[3bob]

if one knows that they do not know what else is there but miracles and Mystery?  

[Marblehead]

if one knows that they do not know what else is there but miracles and Mystery?  

 

Everything is relative, isn't it?

[3bob]

if "everything" may not be as it appears or truly known then what relative point of reference can it be correctly assigned to?

[Pilgrim]

Hi Bindi last post was in a hurry, wanted to add a little.



Coming back to the topic of people doing what would be considered miracles I would like to add that as someone who has managed to live through many experienced, many more etc.. that from this perspective it is not much of a stretch of the imagination to give the benefit of the doubt to historic figures like Swami Trilanga & Lahiri Mahasaya.



The question however is are they really miracles? 



I do not think so. 



I think they are modes of operation that are not known by most.



There is a quote I really like by Arthur C. Clarke ( Who by the way had allot to do with the satellites we have in space today, he was not just a science fiction writer)



"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."



Many of the things I related are examples of accessing some strata of reality under times of stress that has prevented death dismemberment or even just hospitalization.



Some of the things described are when placing ones awareness shunted into that realm.



Some of the things described are by those that have access to these realms and are capable of masterfully operating.



Some of these things like the Angles reported by the construction worker on the Highway are very likely portions of that realm that are not personal like the Concept of a Guardian Angel but upholders of the programs tendency to play out in a certain way within given variables.


 

Here is a bit of HIndu belief.


I was told by Sri Mukherjee that when a person is born they are given a quota.



This Quota is the number of breaths they will have in this life.



Until this quota is met nothing can kill you.



Once this quota is met nothing can save you, you are done.



in-light of my past this seems to be more true than not.