Effort vs no-effort

[Marblehead]

if "everything" may not be as it appears or truly known then what relative point of reference can it be correctly assigned to?

 

Damn good question 3bob.

 

To our self and our self only?

 

(But there are some general commonalities so that occasionally we can use the words "we" and "us" or "they" and "them".)

[3bob]

a great deal of effort has been taken in this string to hammer the hell out of illusion, beat it to death, expunge it, deny it, reject it, go on and on about it, etc..  hmm... 

[Marblehead]

a great deal of effort has been taken in this string to hammer the hell out of illusion, beat it to death, expunge it, deny it, reject it, go on and on about it, etc..  hmm... 

 

Yeah, but basically we are talking about the state of wu wei and how to attain such a state so it is understandable that thought will go all over the place.

[Jeff]

a great deal of effort has been taken in this string to hammer the hell out of illusion, beat it to death, expunge it, deny it, reject it, go on and on about it, etc..  hmm...

 

Beating, denying and rejecting work...?

[3bob]

MH, "Understandable" as in excusable to missing the aim, or informative as in showing such to be counter to the aim? And now we could take off on Zen type sayings with something like, in being one with the target the aim will not fail...

Edited February 22, 2017 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

MH, Understandable as in excusable to missing the aim, or informative as in showing such to be counter to the aim? And now we could take off on Zen type sayings with something like being one with the target thus aim will not fail...

 

Yeah, in this discussion any dogma or philosophy is relevant as long as it is speaking to the opening post question.

 

Many paths to the same destination.

[3bob]

Beating, denying and rejecting work...?

 

...and how would that spin with, "resist not evil"?

[Jeff]

...and how would that spin with, "resist not evil"?

I would say that "resist not evil" is like saying "accept it all", the verse then goes on to say that you should let stuff go too and not be attached to it...

[3bob]

I would say that "resist not evil" is like saying "accept it all", the verse then goes on to say that you should let stuff go too and not be attached to it...

 

Jeff, I can run with that  for a ways... and then what else do we soon hear or read, is it not,  "turn the other cheek", something really much more difficult and which to me points to a Being-to or a by-Being transformation through the stopping of a chain of violence.

 

Now taking this tangent could we say it may get tangled up in way with the OP of effort or non-effort, either in one's self or towards another with various forms of violence, gross or subtle?  And if so I then like the idea of turning the other cheek on our own inner warfare as being a useful thing. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by 3bob

[Bindi]

The goldsmith is up and doing while melting gold. As long as the gold hasn’t melted, he works the bellows with one hand, moves the fan with the other, and blows through a pipe with his mouth. But the moment the gold melts and is poured into the mould, he is relieved of all anxiety. - Ramakrishna

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi last post was in a hurry, wanted to add a little.





Coming back to the topic of people doing what would be considered miracles I would like to add that as someone who has managed to live through many experienced, many more etc.. that from this perspective it is not much of a stretch of the imagination to give the benefit of the doubt to historic figures like Swami Trilanga & Lahiri Mahasaya.





The question however is are they really miracles? 





I do not think so. 





I think they are modes of operation that are not known by most.


I agree. I suspect this stuff goes on at the causal level, and very few are operating at this level and aware of those causes and effects, or able to consciously affect things on that level, mostly this stuff goes on 'behind the veil'.

 

I think many more would have been affected by this level now and then, unconsciously though.

 




There is a quote I really like by Arthur C. Clarke ( Who by the way had allot to do with the satellites we have in space today, he was not just a science fiction writer)





"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."





Many of the things I related are examples of accessing some strata of reality under times of stress that has prevented death dismemberment or even just hospitalization.





Some of the things described are when placing ones awareness shunted into that realm.





Some of the things described are by those that have access to these realms and are capable of masterfully operating.





Some of these things like the Angles reported by the construction worker on the Highway are very likely portions of that realm that are not personal like the Concept of a Guardian Angel but upholders of the programs tendency to play out in a certain way within given variables.


 

Here is a bit of HIndu belief.




I was told by Sri Mukherjee that when a person is born they are given a quota.





This Quota is the number of breaths they will have in this life.





Until this quota is met nothing can kill you.





Once this quota is met nothing can save you, you are done.





in-light of my past this seems to be more true than not.


[Jeff]

Jeff, I can run with that  for a ways... and then what else do we soon hear or read, is it not,  "turn the other cheek", something really much more difficult and which to me points to a Being-to or a by-Being transformation through the stopping of a chain of violence.

 

Now taking this tangent could we say it may get tangled up in way with the OP of effort or non-effort, either in one's self or towards another with various forms of violence, gross or subtle?  And if so I then like the idea of turning the other cheek on our own inner warfare as being a useful thing.

 

I guess I am not really sure what you were asking in the above post. Turn the other cheek had been what I meant with the earlier post about not being attached and letting things go. As an example, if someone insults you, and it hurts, causing you to respond it shows that one is attached to the underlying issue. That response (either conscious or subconscious) is effort. If the insult just passes through since there is no attachment to the issue, it would be no effort.

 

More broadly related to the thread discussion on Self realization, the corresponding difference would be saying that one is so blissed out that they don't even realized that someone was trying to insult them, as compared to knowing that someone was trying to insult them, but since there was no underlying issue/fear to stick to, there is no insult felt. As Jesus says, one just naturally (no effort) turns the other cheek. Or if it makes sense in the situation, even walks a mile or gives a coat (supports) that person.

[3bob]

being unattached can easily have the connotation of indifference or of one being out to lunch, whereas turning the other cheek in the deeper sense is meant to be more of a transformative interaction and event (as you said in helping someone without thought of the smaller self even if they were unkind to you) -  thus not just just ignoring, escaping or looking the other way at someone or something through a type of "above it all" detachment.  And I'd say such does not come naturally for the vast majority of us human beings being that it is really a very advanced state when it gets down to the brass tacks of human existence.

[Jeff]

being unattached can easily have the connotation of indifference or of one being out to lunch, whereas turning the other cheek in the deeper sense is meant to be more of a transformative interaction and event (as you said in helping someone without thought of the smaller self even if they were unkind to you) -  thus not just just ignoring, escaping or looking the other way at someone or something through a type of "above it all" detachment.  And I'd say such does not come naturally for the vast majority of us human beings being that it is really a very advanced state when it gets down to the brass tacks of human existence.

 

 

Totally agree.  But, I would also say that if one learns to continue to "discern" at the higher realization (move beyond just bliss) that the compassion naturally flows through as CT described in an earlier post.

[Pilgrim]

Is this the correct quote?

 

 

In the Gospel of Matthew, 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

Somehow it just does not seem to match what is being said.

 

If this is the correct quote it seems more to do with enduring whatever may come without resistance. How is all this other stuff getting read into it?

[Jeff]

Is this the correct quote?

 

 

Somehow it just does not seem to match what is being said.

 

If this is the correct quote it seems more to do with enduring whatever may come without resistance. How is all this other stuff getting read into it?

 

 

I think if you look at the entire section of the gospel in context you will get the rest of it...

 

Mathew 5:38-45

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

 

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

The "children of God" do not get attached and differentiate.  The sun shines on all.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Jeff

[Pilgrim]

Ok now I am really getting a different idea.

 

What I am getting is that Jesus is telling none of this matters at all your place is with God even while here. It is almost like he is saying keep your focus correct and do not be swayed into the mortal realm.

[Jeff]

Ok now I am really getting a different idea.

 

What I am getting is that Jesus is telling none of this matters at all your place is with God even while here. It is almost like he is saying keep your focus correct and do not be swayed into the mortal realm.

 

 

Actually, I think it is saying much more that. With statements like...

 

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

 

Jesus is saying that for "children of God" it is natural to actively help others. 

[Pilgrim]

Actually, I think it is saying much more that. With statements like...

 

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

 

Jesus is saying that for "children of God" it is natural to actively help others. 

Yes I agree. Please break it down line by line you are good at this.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Pilgrim

[Jeff]

Yes I agree. Please break it down line by line you are good at this.

 

 

Ok...

 

Mathew 5:38-45

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

This is the old law of the Old Testament.  With the coming of Jesus, there is a new realization/understanding.

 

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 

One should not fight, but accept and let go.

 

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 

And if anyone wants to use the old testament stuff (law) to attack you, don't worry about it. Let him have it.

 

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 

And if any continue to pressure/attack, do not try to hide from or avoid it, but continue on facing, accepting and letting go.

 

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

And to any who ask you for help, give it to him.

 

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 

More old testament stuff, that is not accurate with the new realization of Jesus.

 

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 

Love everyone no matter what...

 

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Because a "child of God" is beyond good and bad, attachment and avoidance and the natural compassion shines through on all (like the sun and the rain).

[3bob]

but there is also a war going on and lots of other sayings about it...Jesus is compassionate but he also like a Lion and a indomitable warrior with a two edged sword, thus take care for all is not fuzzy as some would believe. 

[Jeff]

but there is also a war going on and lots of other sayings about it...Jesus is compassionate but he also like a Lion and a indomitable warrior with a two edged sword, thus take care for all is not fuzzy as some would believe. 

 

 

War?  Can you be more specific?  Or do you mean just in general with the old corrupt ways of the established church/religion which tries to hide the key to the "kingdom of God"?

[Pilgrim]

Good with all except for the last one. Where is this ever said anywhere?

 

a "child of God" is beyond good and bad, attachment and avoidance and the natural compassion shines through on all (like the sun and the rain).

 

When I read things like beyond Good and Bad that is disturbing.

 

Beyond Attachment and Avoidance seems like something extra also.

 

45 seems more a continuance of Love everyone so you can be the Children of the Father. The point of making the sun he alone owns rising on the good and the evil and sending the rain on the just and unjust to me says

 

God is in charge.

 

God alone decides who gets what. God alone decides.

 

The Children of the Father are not to be confused with being equal to the Father but like the good and the evil the just and the unjust are subjects of the Father.

 

As subjects of the Father they are equal to the good and the evil the just and the unjust and therefore should love everyone as themselves for they themselves are not above anyone.

 

 

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven

 

This suggests just making the scene being created does not automatically qualify as a condition of being children of the Father.

 

Question what then is the Definition of Children of the Father?

 

It appears one of the qualifying conditions is to love everyone.

 

It also appears that the reason is because everyone has the same potential to qualify and make the grade as Children of the Father.

 

Question what are the Qualifications, what is the criteria for being a child of God?

Edited February 23, 2017 by Pilgrim

[Jeff]

Good with all except for the last one. Where is this ever said anywhere?

 

When I read things like beyond Good and Bad that is disturbing.

 

Beyond Attachment and Avoidance seems like something extra also.

 

45 seems more a continuance of Love everyone so you can be the Children of the Father. The point of making the sun he alone owns rising on the good and the evil and sending the rain on the just and unjust to me says

 

God is in charge.

 

God alone decides who gets what. God alone decides.

 

The Children of the Father are not to be confused with being equal to the Father but like the good and the evil the just and the unjust are subjects of the Father.

 

As subjects of the Father they are equal to the good and the evil the just and the unjust and therefore should love everyone as themselves for they themselves are not above anyone.

 

 

This suggests just making the scene being created does not automatically qualify as a condition of being children of the Father.

 

Question what then is the Definition of Children of the Father?

 

It appears one of the qualifying conditions is to love everyone.

 

It also appears that the reason is because everyone has the same potential to qualify and make the grade as Children of the Father.

 

Question what are the Qualifications, what is the criteria for being a child of God?

 

 

I am not sure where you are getting your concepts regarding the relationship between the Father and the "children". Jesus says nothing like what you are describing.  He is actually very clear in saying the opposite...

 

John 5:20-23

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

 

Or

 

Gospel of Thomas

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

 

On your criteria for being  (or realizing one is) a "child of God", there are many descriptions and pointers in the gospels. But it is basically that one realizes that they are "one with the father". Here is something you might find useful...

 

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

 

...And be a Son (child) of God.

 

Psalm 82: 5-6

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Jeff

[Pilgrim]

Where I am getting it from is from what was written.

 

Beyond good and evil?  Where does it ever say the children of the Father are Beyond good and Evil?

 

 

 

John 5:20-23

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

 

When the Son is referenced that is Jesus.

 

Maybe I am misinterpreting your writing but it seems you are mixing up and interchanging the Children of the Father with Jesus and that is not the same.

 

Yes 22 makes perfect sense. It is what I call Gender Complete.

 

Entering the Kingdom yes but where does it say becoming a son child of God did you add that part? or just separate it for emphasis of a point of view?

 

Where in the Bible is anyone one with the Father other than Jesus so proclaiming he is?