Bindi Posted February 23, 2017 Jeff, it does seem to me that you are suggesting that 'no effort' is being promoted in the NT, what about 'But seek ye first the Kingdom of God', which must involve intention and surely effort? And presumably one must keep seeking until one finds the Kingdom, is this an effortless task? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) Where I am getting it from is from what was written. Beyond good and evil? Where does it ever say the children of the Father are Beyond good and Evil When the Son is referenced that is Jesus. Maybe I am misinterpreting your writing but it seems you are mixing up and interchanging the Children of the Father with Jesus and that is not the same. Yes 22 makes perfect sense. It is what I call Gender Complete. Entering the Kingdom yes but where does it say becoming a son child of God did you add that part? or just separate it for emphasis of a point of view? Where in the Bible is anyone one with the Father other than Jesus so proclaiming he is? What you call gender complete is only a part of verse 22. Additionally, Jesus is very clear about "sharing the power" and not being the only one as you can see in his following words... John 14:10-13 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. He specifically states that you can do greater works that Jesus did. Simple believe/know Jesus's teachings and you will also be one with the Father. Or as Roman 8 says... 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. A son of God is a "joint-heir with Christ" and hence can do even greater works than Jesus. We are all (or have the potential to be) one in Christ. Similar to the concept that everyone is a potential Buddha. Edited February 23, 2017 by Jeff 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 23, 2017 Jeff, it does seem to me that you are suggesting that 'no effort' is being promoted in the NT, what about 'But seek ye first the Kingdom of God', which must involve intention and surely effort? And presumably one must keep seeking until one finds the Kingdom, is this an effortless task? I am definitely not saying that no effort is being promoted as the path/approach in the New Testament. I only stated that relative to the later or higher states and describing the contrast point with my discussion with 3bob. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pilgrim Posted February 23, 2017 What you call gender complete is only a part of verse 22. Additionally, Jesus is very clear about "sharing the power" and not being the only one as you can see in his following words... John 14:10-13 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. He specifically states that you can do greater works that Jesus did. Simple believe/know Jesus's teachings and you will also be one with the Father. Or as Roman 8 says... 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. A son of God is a "joint-heir with Christ" and hence can do even greater works than Jesus. We are all (or have the potential to be) one in Christ. Similar to the concept that everyone is a potential Buddha. Ah much better, Thanks:) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted February 23, 2017 Discussion on miracles (attention Pilgrim and Bindi) -- 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 23, 2017 Discussion on miracles (attention Pilgrim and Bindi) -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY6NbGoVNfw As he said, the greatest miracle of all is when a yogi can lead someone to God/divine. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) The goldsmith is up and doing while melting gold. As long as the gold hasn’t melted, he works the bellows with one hand, moves the fan with the other, and blows through a pipe with his mouth. But the moment the gold melts and is poured into the mould, he is relieved of all anxiety. - Ramakrishna Exactly! Like the Butcher Ding: http://www.pursuit-of-happiness.org/history-of-happiness/zhuangzi/ Full parable: http://www.taoism.net/chuang/butcher.htm Keep carving our own minds like our friend the skilled butcher! Edited February 23, 2017 by Gerard 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted February 23, 2017 As he said, the greatest miracle of all is when a yogi can lead someone to God/divine. Hi dear friend Jeff, I would say when you with your own effort reveal the Divine that is deeply dormant within you. Butcher Ding once again? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 24, 2017 Hi dear friend Jeff, I would say when you with your own effort reveal the Divine that is deeply dormant within you. Butcher Ding once again? Ahhh... I am not sure that one can find Divine without a little help from the Divine... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted February 24, 2017 Ahhh... I am not sure that one can find Divine without a little help from the Divine... "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able." Luke 13:24 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 24, 2017 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able." Luke 13:24 But efforts only take you to the door, they do not get you through it... “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pilgrim Posted February 24, 2017 Hi Jeff Quotes on iPad. '' What you call gender complete is only a part of verse 22. Additionally, Jesus is very clear about "sharing the power" and not being the only one as you can see in his following words..." A question what comes next after a Gender complete? I can see the end of that phase. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted February 24, 2017 But efforts only take you to the door, they do not get you through it... “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV If Jesus himself speaks of making every effort to enter through the door, is it reasonable to accept that this directive be overturned by either *Paul, or a later author influenced by Paul's thought? Isn't this the birth of a religion that would be unrecognised by Jesus himself? *Ephesians authorship has traditionally been credited to Paul the Apostle but, starting in 1792, this has been challenged as Deutero-Pauline, that is, written in Paul's name by a later author strongly influenced by Paul's thought. (wikipedia) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) I think we have a mish-mash of various teachings going on here which can be useful and informative up to a point through their common ground but after that has been exceeded problems start to multiply - with some (edit: and at times myself included to whatever degree) apparently thinking and or implying that direct or almost direct correlations can continue to apply all the way across the board or as far as they want them to regardless of key differences! Edited February 24, 2017 by 3bob 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 24, 2017 If Jesus himself speaks of making every effort to enter through the door, is it reasonable to accept that this directive be overturned by either *Paul, or a later author influenced by Paul's thought? Isn't this the birth of a religion that would be unrecognised by Jesus himself? *Ephesians authorship has traditionally been credited to Paul the Apostle but, starting in 1792, this has been challenged as Deutero-Pauline, that is, written in Paul's name by a later author strongly influenced by Paul's thought. (wikipedia) I don't see how Paul is disagreeing with the teachings of Jesus at all... “Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:43-44 KJV Combined that with... “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” John 14:6-7 KJV Hence Jesus is saying that no one makes it to the "father" without the "grace of the father" (hath sent me draw him). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Hi Jeff Quotes on iPad. '' What you call gender complete is only a part of verse 22. Additionally, Jesus is very clear about "sharing the power" and not being the only one as you can see in his following words..." A question what comes next after a Gender complete? I can see the end of that phase. The stage that you call becoming gender complete is described in the GOT here... 61. Jesus said, "Two will recline on a couch; one will die, one will live." Salome said, "Who are you mister? You have climbed onto my couch and eaten from my table as if you are from someone." Jesus said to her, "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father." "I am your disciple." "For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness." The two sides become one and then one becomes "filled with light" or forms the light body (the one that lives). But, as Jesus states... 24. His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it." He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark." There is a "deeper" or inner light that "shines on the whole world". This is describing the shift of integrating/being all. Or you could say that becoming gender complete leads to the realization of the soul, but on must continue on to become a son of God/one with Christ. The Tao Te Ching Chapter 28 describes the actual steps/stages well and in a much more orderly progression... Know the strength of man, But keep a woman's care! < Becoming gender complete> Be the stream of the universe! Being the stream of the universe, <Light inside that shines on the whole world> Ever true and unswerving, Become as a little child once more. < Now gender complete, soul realization, light body> Know the white, But keep the black! < relearning differentiation, inside and outside same from GOT 22> Be an example to the world! Being an example to the world, Ever true and unwavering, Return to the infinite. Know honor, Yet keep humility. Be the valley of the universe! <Accept and let go of everything at all layers of form and formlessness> Being the valley of the universe, Ever true and resourceful, Return to the state of the uncarved block. <Sacrifice all for sentient beings> When the block is carved, it becomes useful. <Let the needs of the universe-cause and effect, define the form> When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler. <christhood> Thus, "A great tailor cuts little." TTC - Chapter 28 Edited February 24, 2017 by Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 24, 2017 so here we go again - Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pilgrim Posted February 24, 2017 I think we have a mish-mash of various teachings going on here which can be useful and informative up to a point through their common ground but after that has been exceeded problems start to multiply - with some (edit: and at times myself included to whatever degree) apparently thinking and or implying that direct or almost direct correlations can continue to apply all the way across the board or as far as they want them to regardless of key differences! IDIC http://surak.nu/idic.php Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pilgrim Posted February 24, 2017 IDIC http://surak.nu/idic.php so here we go again - Yes and thank goodness. I for one gain immediate insights kensho,that only declaring one way is the way never can. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenshō Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Right, "new age" and dubious type liberties taken will get one a fair ways down a new age and dubious path. Btw, who said anything about declaring one way or path? Scrambling them all up like mixing oil and water after common ground has been exceeded is what I was getting at. Edited February 24, 2017 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonesboy Posted February 24, 2017 What is getting scrambled up? Also, what do you see as new age? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pilgrim Posted February 24, 2017 What is getting scrambled up? Also, what do you see as new age? Yes I too would like to know. Who says because something is old it is better? Is not even the old stuff new with each new person learning and or practicing it. Have we as a species not improved everything we ever found of value? Sure the rotary dial worked on phones but look at the smart phone now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted February 24, 2017 I don't see how Paul is disagreeing with the teachings of Jesus at all... “Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:43-44 KJV Combined that with... “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” John 14:6-7 KJV Hence Jesus is saying that no one makes it to the "father" without the "grace of the father" (hath sent me draw him). There are two Jesus's in the bible, one is a simple man who asks people to seek for the kingdom of God, and likens it to a treasure hidden in a field that we must find, the other is almost megalomaniacal, saying 'I am the way, the truth and the light, no man cometh to the father but by me.' One says seek within, the other says only have faith in him, which has created the religious division that we know today. The bible is a many layered text, and it seems to me we are reading the layer that most appeals to us. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 25, 2017 There are two Jesus's in the bible, one is a simple man who asks people to seek for the kingdom of God, and likens it to a treasure hidden in a field that we must find, the other is almost megalomaniacal, saying 'I am the way, the truth and the light, no man cometh to the father but by me.' One says seek within, the other says only have faith in him, which has created the religious division that we know today. The bible is a many layered text, and it seems to me we are reading the layer that most appeals to us. Jesus is a very complex and infinitely layered being, but definitely not megalomaniacal. He is also completely consistent, one just needs to realize what it means to be a "one with the Father". 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) Jesus is a very complex and infinitely layered being, but definitely not megalomaniacal. He is also completely consistent, one just needs to realize what it means to be a "one with the Father". I don't think he was a megalomaniac, I think the megalomaniac words just weren't spoken by him but by later Christians with an investment in the doctrine of faith only in Jesus. As another example, the Lord's prayer is addressed directly to the Father, not to Jesus as intermediary. But in your terms and preferably in your words, why can I only find the Kingdom of God through faith in Jesus, why can't I seek it directly? Edited February 25, 2017 by Bindi 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
