Effort vs no-effort

[Jeff]

Why?

 

 

Your choice. You can "cease" if you want, but some prefer to continue on to help others (Buddha/Christ/Ruler Immortal).

 

The virtual machine can overlay the main machine.  Realize that it is not really separate or virtual. Also the main machine is not some brain dead thing, it is fully aware...

[dwai]

 

"In not being they are not knowing" is a bit ambiguous. Because the statement is true in the case of mistaken identity, but false in that "pure being" is the "state" of "not-knowing". Or, there can be no knowledge known separate from Itself. Or, primordial being is knowledge itself.

 

As Nisargadatta made clear, "pure being" may as well be labeled "non-being", as the Absolute isn't being anything in particular. In theory, it is the "not-a-thingness" which makes "things" possible.

 

Now, this isn't to be mistaken for the "Witness" which believes it can perceive the Absolute. The true witness, the Self of All, is the witness of consciousness. The eye cannot see itself... and even a mirror can only reflect an image.

 

Ramakant Maharaj calls it, your "Unidentified Identity."

 

With this illustration in view, one should be able to imagine how it's possible to remain unaware of thoughts, as there is no mind in this "stateless state."

 

Oh the problems of syntax to describe the indescribable!

 

Since Knowledge is a function of memory, knowing is really not being. But there is another kind of knowing...which is really not-knowing (as you put it), as it is Being. As long as we rely on memory and bounce between past and future, we cannot be present. If we are not present, we don't really know...

 

Hari Om Tat Sat

[Bindi]

Ok. Got it.  So Sri Nisargadatta is not enlightened in your book.  So how do you know that Ramana is?  How do you know that he was not simply "deluded by ego" too? Just not stuck in some zombie like state?

 

How can this -

 

“Nisargadatta is said to be enlightened but he boasts, brags and conducts arrogantly.”

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=4140.0

 

- be ego free behaviour?

 

¹⁶ Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

¹⁷ Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

¹⁸ A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

¹⁹ Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

²⁰ Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:16-20King James Version (KJV)

 

[Pilgrim]

Have any of these feats ever been recorded?

Yes many eyewitness accounts recorded.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Varanasi-Legends-Teachings-Trailingaswami/dp/8190120085

 

The book is very expensive I waited for the price to drop and purchased at $35.00 bu that is the lowest I have ever seen it.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

Oops already covered

Edited February 21, 2017 by Pilgrim

[Jeff]

 

How can this -

 

“Nisargadatta is said to be enlightened but he boasts, brags and conducts arrogantly.”

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=4140.0

 

- be ego free behaviour?

 

¹⁶ Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

¹⁷ Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

¹⁸ A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

¹⁹ Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

²⁰ Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:16-20King James Version (KJV)

 

 

 

 

I am not trying to disagree with your regarding Sri Nisargadatta,  I was just trying to figure out how you differentiate between the two.  In general, I would agree that there is a lot of "grade inflation" with spiritual stuff.

 

So, I assume with your gospel quote, you would say that the proof is in the pudding(living)?  And if so, is that proof in how the world judges people, or maybe instead in how many people that person helps to realize the truth?  As an example, someone can be very saintly when doing nothing and just sitting on a rock.  

[Jetsun]

There is a state beyond ego which very few seem to achieve. For example:

 

In the case of Sri Ramana, the ego ended in the experience in Madurai, and from that moment onwards, Sri Ramana says there was no change in his experience. That is consistent with Sri Ramana’s description of Sahaja Samadhi.

 

The case if Sri Nisargadatta is quite different.

 

Sri Nisargadatta continued until the end of his life to describe the changes that were occurring. For example he said that previously he thought he was free of the ‘I am the body’ identification but that now he could see that some had remained, etc.

 

In Sahaja Samadhi there is no longer an entity that can undergo changes in the level of ‘I am the body’ identification and there is no longer an entity that can go on learning about itself and there are no parts in the Self so that one part can be revealed to another part.

 

Thus the state that Sri Ramana Maharshi was in is called Sahaja Samadhi. The state that Sri Nisargadatta was in and out of and in and out of is called kevala samadhi.

 

Also Sri Nisargadatta had the view that after Self-Realization there is an endless journey of discovering oneself. Both these are consistent with those who go in and out of kevala Samadhi. However those descriptions are completely inconsistent with Sahaja Samadhi.

 

http://albigen.com/uarelove/sahaja.htm

The vast majority of people are like Nisargadatta, they have major shifts of awakening which deepen and widen over time. Even if fundamentally he has seen through the illusion there can be all kinds of pockets of self and self based conditioning remaining within the system to work through and wake up, which is a life long process. This is the way I see it in just about all the awake teachers and people I have met. Ramana is the exception rather than the rule and even he needed 3 years after his shift to adapt and settle into it where he went to live alone in a cave.

[Jeff]

Its better to just be...

 

 

Agreed.  But in that true being, one becomes aware of "all", and hence naturally wants to help "others".  It is more like the opposite of everything just shutting down.  

[Marblehead]

To be or not to be; is that the question?

[Pilgrim]

Your choice. You can "cease" if you want, but some prefer to continue on to help others (Buddha/Christ/Ruler Immortal).

 

The virtual machine can overlay the main machine.  Realize that it is not really separate or virtual. Also the main machine is not some brain dead thing, it is fully aware...

What is there definition of Cease?





The Virtual Machine analogy I made was was in response to Shiva not Buddhism but then again it could fit if one considers Shiva a Buddha universe and all within his virtual realm as Virtual Machines.





You can have a Hardware server but it always requires a primary operating system even for example, bare metal hypervisors like VMware but you are a fool to also have your primary domain controller located there as well.




The operating system is minimal but without it there would be no environment for the files comprising the virtualized operating systmes weither they be Windows based, Linux based etc... there would be no way for the Virtual machines to access or utilize the hardware of the host which by definition is still an operating system.

 

So in my Analogy Shiva is the Hypervisor, but he is not the only one.

 

The Primary Domain Controller acts as authentication control for the network and provides DNS so it should be outside of the Hypervisor.

 

The Virtual Machines achieve network connectivity via DNS and are able to connect to others across the intranet and internet  with one another but can also be granted access rights to one another via the Hypervisor.

 

The internet is the medium operating via DNS that allows seperate Shiviac entities to allow communication between there virtual Machines.

 

But the kicker is that the internet is nothing more than linked Shiviac Entites and thier respective domains.

 

The virtual machines however are not prevented from crossing domains but the access levels and permissions are different in different domains.

 

The Self then is dependant on a domain but able to cross domains at will.

 

I think we as humans are managing to engineer what already is.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Pilgrim

[Jeff]

What is there definition of Cease?





The Virtual Machine analogy I made was was in response to Shiva not Buddhism but then again it could fit if one considers Shiva a Buddha universe and all within his virtual realm as Virtual Machines.





You can have a Hardware server but it always requires a primary operating system even for example, bare metal hypervisors like VMware but you are a fool to also have your primary domain controller located there as well.




The operating system is minimal but without it there would be no environment for the files comprising the virtualized operating systmes weither they be Windows based, Linux based etc... there would be no way for the Virtual machines to access or utilize the hardware of the host which by definition is still an operating system.

 

So in my Analogy Shiva is the Hypervisor. but he is not the only one.

 

The Primary Domain Controller acts as authentication control for the network and provides DNS so it should be outside of the Hypervisor.

 

The Virtual Machines achieve network connectivity via DNS and are able to connect to others across the intranet and internet  with one another but can also be granted access rights to one another via the Hypervisor.

 

The internet is the medium operating via DNS that allows seperate Shiviac entities to allow communication between there virtual Machines.

 

But the kicker is that the internet is nothing more than linked Shiviac Entites and thier respective domains.

 

The virtual machines however are not prevented from crossing domains but the access levels and permissions are different in different domains.

 

The Self then is dependant on a domain but able to cross domains at will.

 

I think we as humans are managing to engineer what already is.

 

 

Ok. Thanks.  What you are describing here is not the classic Self framework.  Is there some broader Brahman thing that everything is inside of?  And does each person have their own discrete Shiviac Entites and domain, or is each domain like a separate universe?  How is a Self different than your Shiviac Entities and domain?

 

On cease, it means the complete shutdown at all levels. Which is what I think others have been saying happens in this thread.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Jeff

[dwai]

The vast majority of people are like Nisargadatta, they have major shifts of awakening which deepen and widen over time. Even if fundamentally he has seen through the illusion there can be all kinds of pockets of self and self based conditioning remaining within the system to work through and wake up, which is a life long process. This is the way I see it in just about all the awake teachers and people I have met. Ramana is the exception rather than the rule and even he needed 3 years after his shift to adapt and settle into it where he went to live alone in a cave.

 

I wonder why we expect personalities to be completely identical? Like this caricature --  with bleating voices and beatific pronouncements!

 

If it doesn't meet the description, then they are judged...

 

I would pose this question to those who claim Nisargadatta Maharaj was ego-deluded - Are you sure you are not projecting your own limitations and value ascriptions on to your perception of the person?

 

Do his words have an impact on you? Or do they not? 

If they do have an impact on you, do you know if that is positive or negative?

If you feel it is negative, do you feel it because it causes some sort of cognitive dissonance in you? Does that make you feel bad?

If you feel it is positive, do you feel it because he says the same thing you believe? Does that make you feel good?

 

If so, then where is the value ascription happening? Whose ego sees these things and labels him as "ego deluded"?

 

[neti neti]

According to this description Shiva would be the host machine and all the JIva would be virtual machines. A software centric approach.

 

Lol you still need substantial hardware in the datacenter to pull this off.

I would say there is only Shiva in regard to the perceptual. Parasiva is the Host of hosts, without so much as a micro-drop of solder. Edited February 21, 2017 by neti neti

[neti neti]

Agreed. But in that true being, one becomes aware of "all", and hence naturally wants to help "others". It is more like the opposite of everything just shutting down.

 

The jnani is in total unawareness. He is all, and from unawareness, sees only himself.

 

There's no wanting to help others, because there is no one there to want. Those in need of help will be drawn to the helper, and helping just happens.

 

Self helps Itself.

Edited February 21, 2017 by neti neti

[Jeff]

The jnani is in total unawareness. He is all, and from unawareness, sees only himself.

 

There's no wanting to help others, because there is no one there to want. Those in need of help will be drawn to the helper, and helping just happens.

 

Self helps Itself.

 

 

Yes, I know in your tradition there is only cessation.  But, for the rest of us...

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.  But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation.

-Lankavatara Sutra

 

Or if you prefer Taoism...

 

Being the valley of the universe, 

Ever true and resourceful, 

Return to the state of the uncarved block. 

When the block is carved, it becomes useful. 

When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler. 

Thus, "A great tailor cuts little." 

TTC - Chapter 28

[Pilgrim]

Ok. Thanks.  What you are describing here is not the classic Self framework.  Is there some broader Brahman thing that everything is inside of?  And does each person have their own discrete Shiviac Entites and domain, or is each domain like a separate universe?  How is a Self different than your Shiviac Entities and domain?

 

On cease, it means the complete shutdown at all levels. Which is what I think others have been saying happens in this thread.

Search me? I don't know. Just trying on some theories for size.  I only know what I know from experience. Really scholarly things like this ism or that are not my thing when something fits it is just known.

 

I think what I am trying to describe is a bit like Riju used to talk about.

 

What does shutdown on all levels mean?

 

Might it not also mean oh I don't know how about actually going beyond there even being a seperate self altogehter.

 

In allot of ways Buddishm seems like a level of mind where people just get stuck. Buddishm has always struck  me as somewhat afraid of death and wanting to continue if not in a vehicle of meat then in a vehicle of energy.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Pilgrim

[C T]

 

In allot of ways Buddishm seems like a level of mind where people just get stuck. Buddishm has always struck  me as somewhat afraid of death and wanting to continue if not in a vehicle of meat then in a vehicle of energy.

on the contrary

[Jeff]

Search me? I don't know. Just trying on some theories for size.  I only know what I know from experience. Really scholarly things like this ism or that are not my thing when something fits it is just known.

 

I think what I am trying to describe is a bit like Riju used to talk about.

 

What does shutdown on all levels mean?

 

Might it not also mean oh I don't know how about actually going beyond there even being a seperate self altogehter.

 

In allot of ways Buddishm seems like a level of mind where people just get stuck. Buddishm has always struck  me as somewhat afraid of death and wanting to continue if not in a vehicle of meat then in a vehicle of energy.

 

 

Ok.  Thanks.  I get what you are saying with the relative levels. Also, I think at a relative level buddhism has the same reincarnation concept that most Hindu traditions do.  The difference to me is more found in the definition of "nirvana" or the nature of realization. 

 

By full shutdown, I mean what neti-neti is describing...

 

 

The jnani is in total unawareness. He is all, and from unawareness, sees only himself.

 

...

 

 

Total unawareness.  Shutdown and completely gone.  In Buddhism, Daoism, Kashmir Shivaism and Mystical Christianity that is seen more as an intermediate state, before one has relearned to differentiate at what you could say is the higher level (of Self).  This is why there is the Zen quote of, first there is a mountain, then no mountain, and then a mountain again.  The mountain is the ability to differentiate.

 

Since one is now all of Self, but still able to differentiate, one has natural compassion for others. This differentiation point is also why buddhas are said to have three bodies.  The dharmakaya is sort of like shutdown Self level, while the Sambkogakaya and Nirmankaya are bodies that work inside the system to help sentient beings.

 

So the text I posted is kind of like saying, don't just stop and hit the complete shutdown, but continue on to further differentiate again so you can help all of those sentient beings realize for themselves.

[Pilgrim]

on the contrary

Please do tell.

[C T]

Please do tell.

In the main, the Buddhist path is one where, if penetrated with wisdom, allows the practitioner to be fully and firmly removed from entertaining extreme ideas of birth and death. Hence the notion of the Middle Way. 

 

On a subtler scale, the buddhist adept penetrates with wisdom the empty yet cognizant nature of phenomenon, seeing clearly the absolute in the relative, and thus enjoy freedom from confusion. 

 

At the secret level, all dualities are reconciled back to the mandala of pervasive great bliss, beyond all conceptual notions of is and is nots, beyond hope and fear... beyond clinging and aversion, as expounded in the Prajnaparamita sutra. 

[Pilgrim]

Ok.  Thanks.  I get what you are saying with the relative levels. Also, I think at a relative level buddhism has the same reincarnation concept that most Hindu traditions do.  The difference to me is more found in the definition of "nirvana" or the nature of realization. 

 

By full shutdown, I mean what neti-neti is describing...

 

 

 

 

Total unawareness.  Shutdown and completely gone.  In Buddhism, Daoism, Kashmir Shivaism and Mystical Christianity that is seen more as an intermediate state, before one has relearned to differentiate at what you could say is the higher level (of Self).  This is why there is the Zen quote of, first there is a mountain, then no mountain, and then a mountain again.  The mountain is the ability to differentiate.

 

Since one is now all of Self, but still able to differentiate, one has natural compassion for others. This differentiation point is also why buddhas are said to have three bodies.  The dharmakaya is sort of like shutdown Self level, while the Sambkogakaya and Nirmankaya are bodies that work inside the system to help sentient beings.

 

So the text I posted is kind of like saying, don't just stop and hit the complete shutdown, but continue on to further differentiate again so you can help all of those sentient beings realize for themselves.

 

I agree what Neti Neti is describing is not it

 

 

The jnani is in total unawareness. He is all, and from unawareness, sees only himself.

 

That in and of itself is a level. This is also not the end.

 

I like the phrase

 

 

before one has relearned to differentiate at what you could say is the higher level (of Self).

 

This has the ring of truth to it and is experientially matching. I have written on this in the past without as clean a vocabulary. In my way of speaking I would say it as follows:

 

One of the reasons I practice Kriya Yoga daily, is to die daily. This would be the shut down. These are the various Samadhi States.

 

An intelligent person will say but Pilgrim you have already come back from the Samadhi where there is no heart beat, where there is no breath, where there is nothing remotly able to be told about it because there is no mind.

 

Why then Pilgrim would you continue??

 

I asked myself this but knew the answer before the question was formed.

 

The answer is because with each entry the ability to be more than just gone increases. More refined ability to be present in those places.

 

Other than that even a corpse can achieve the state without heartbeat and breath, but how many can come back?

 

That is an extreme and dangerous state because you are so far removed from living as a human that there is no interest in picking up a mind and returning.

 

Not dangerous to the self but dangerous to this I typing because there are those I love and care about that would suffer not being able to comprehend and no wife should find a corpse like that.

 

This is how I would explain it as my truest form of expression is sharing experience. Well the parts that can be anyway.

[Jeff]

In the main, the Buddhist path is one where, if penetrated with wisdom, allows the practitioner to be fully and firmly removed from entertaining extreme ideas of birth and death. Hence the notion of the Middle Way. 

 

On a subtler scale, the buddhist adept penetrates with wisdom the empty yet cognizant nature of phenomenon, seeing clearly the absolute in the relative, and thus enjoy freedom from confusion. 

 

At the secret level, all dualities are reconciled back to the mandala of pervasive great bliss, beyond all conceptual notions of is and is nots, beyond hope and fear... beyond clinging and aversion, as expounded in the Prajnaparamita sutra. 

 

 

With your secret level, would you agree that while residing in the "mandala of pervasive great bliss", one is still able to differentiate and hence has compassion for others?

[C T]

With your secret level, would you agree that while residing in the "mandala of pervasive great bliss", one is still able to differentiate and hence has compassion for others?

Yes, compassion is indivisible from all aspects of the path, from the stages of generation thru to completion, just as wetness cannot be separated from water. The seed of wisdom is compassion, and the flower of compassion is wisdom. 

[neti neti]

Yes, I know in your tradition there is only cessation.  But, for the rest of us...

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.  But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation.

-Lankavatara Sutra

 

Or if you prefer Taoism...

 

Being the valley of the universe, 

Ever true and resourceful, 

Return to the state of the uncarved block. 

When the block is carved, it becomes useful. 

When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler. 

Thus, "A great tailor cuts little." 

TTC - Chapter 28

 

Ignore the pointers, ignore what the tradition speaks to, go beneath the surface. Read between the lines, look past the words.

 

When the sublimely blissful state of deep sleep occurs, it doesn't occur with willful intention, it occurs naturally. It just happens. From the sublimely blissful state of deep sleep, one awakens without any willful intention, it occurs naturally. It just happens. Without any question of effort or effortlessness, one's eyes open, and this miraculous universe is on display.

 

There's the experience of bliss, but there's neither bliss, nor not-bliss. There's the experience of supreme consciousness, but there's neither that nor no-experience. Not cessation, just inconceivable. Unawareness is just a pointer. Discard it, and the mind comes to a full stop.

 

The Bodhisattva only appears to attach to these ideas of not giving himself up to bliss, keeping vows, thinking compassionately. He is bliss, He is the vow, and He is compassion. He can appear to be all things to all men, for He is all men, and yet, He is not. You are He. There is no He.

 

Attempt to at least entertain this is beyond the confines of mental modes or definitions. Beyond ideas of advancement or cessation, rest or exertion. Beyond labels. Cancel out the opposites, go beyond that pesky mind which loves grasping even at air until it recedes back from whence it came. Go beyond scales and measures of gain or loss, beyond fuller or lesser realization, beyond all classifications. Beyond, "beyond."

Edited February 21, 2017 by neti neti

[neti neti]

To be or not to be; is that the question?

 

So it seems... to which I would answer both, and neither. (Either or) manifest as they must, and neither is wherein questions do not arise.

Edited February 21, 2017 by neti neti