Homosexuality in the tao

[Shad282]

I do not see there any insults unless you take my words and beat yourself with them - I have no responsibility for people who insult themselves in that way as nobody else have responsibility of such when I'm doing that.

 

That's some old stuff I read about, you will not hear about healing homosexuals thru herbal medicine as it was in ancient times. You will find those recipes in old bedroom art books. I'm sure there are herbal remedies for homosexual imbalance and it would be nice to test them tho as some smart men can realize this can be problem for their wellbeing especially the HIV/AIDS statistics in gay community is outraging.

 

It is not your fault that you still didn't experience love, because all you are referring to about homosexuality, is sex.

You need to experience more your emotions, and essentially, true love (not attachment). because you would know taking herbals won't make you stop loving a person and sex is just making that emotion physical, making love. A few herbals or energy practices won't alter your feeling of love, because it is a genuine positive and very strong emotion, from which arises all other emotions. 

 

Open up your emotions, so you can see and feel life.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Love is results of hormones and can be affected directly with drugs/herbs. Love to women or men is results of carving. There is no love between people in the way you describe, it's fairy tale. The only love you can get like that (fake) is from washed up women which they are dissatisfied with most of men and will settle even for naive person.

 

What you are referring here is metta/bodhichitta which got nothing to do with sexes.

Edited February 21, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[liminal_luke]

I`d been thinking I needed at least a break from Daobums, but how could I leave now?  You can`t make this s*** up -- hilarious!

[Brian]

I`d been thinking I needed at least a break from Daobums, but how could I leave now?  You can`t make this s*** up -- hilarious!

Aren't you glad you stuck around for the halftime show?

[Mudfoot]

While waiting for a new Mo Pai or Nei Dan thread, this certainly keeps the entertainment level up where it should be.

[Aetherous]

That guy is not stating ANY facts, but just talking nonsense. There is literally nothing like that in TCM.

[silent thunder]

I pity you your road seeker...

[thelerner]

What I find more interesting is androgyny in the advanced.  That in many experienced long time cultivators you find such balance that they seem more.. sexless. 

[Aetherous]

What I find more interesting is androgyny in the advanced.  That in many experienced long time cultivators you find such balance that they seem more.. sexless. 

 

Some would say that happens on the false paths.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Aetherous

[cold]

If we are lucky right path left path all lead to the mountain.

Along the way a lot happens.

If we are lucky and or deserving we grow both in understanding and acceptance.

[thelerner]

What I find more interesting is androgyny in the advanced.  That in many experienced long time cultivators you find such balance that they seem more.. sexless. 

 

 

Some would say that happens on the false paths.

You find it on the 'Monk' path.  Glenn Morris wrote about it in the martial arts.  

 

Probably not for everyone, yet I wonder if it is in someways a return to balance?   A deep dropping of identity on a physical and mental and cultural basis. 

[silent thunder]

Males all start female.  We are one.  Separation is an illusion.

There is gender unity and fluidity in expression.

 

We are not male or female, we are male and female in varying expressions of the two extremes in both physicality and emotional/expressional, subtle aspects.

 

I'm a straight man, who exhibits some very distinctly feminine characteristics.

My wife, a straight woman, has many masculine traits.

 

There are all manner of expressions and combinations. 

We are fluid, not static.

[Orgasmic19]

So is homosexuality accepted in Taoism because I keep on getting mix messages?

[silent thunder]

Who could or would officially accept or deny it and on what authority, is what I'm wondering...

 

I think in these matters, as many taoists as you ask, you would encounter that many opinions on it.

[Mandrake]

So is homosexuality accepted in Taoism because I keep on getting mix messages?

 

Why is this a relevant question for you?

[thelerner]

If you're going 'all the way' and the aim is to be a Taoist Monk or Hermit, then imo you're aiming to become a non-sexual. 

 

For those taking the house holder path, there are many factors into what makes one closer or further from the Tao.  To me, Tao is harmony, harmony with nature, harmony with self.  If the heart of the question is Can a Taoist be homosexual, I assume sure, why not. 

 

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the 'hardcore' priesthoods and monk orders tended to run a bit higher then the social norm in such things.  Probably easier to forsake your sexuality for extreme spirituality when you're in a culture that frowns on the former.

[liminal_luke]

Why is this a relevant question for you?

 

Great question.  I guess I`d mostly want to know whether the original question of energetic balance within homosexual relationships is purely theoretical or comes out of personal experience.  Otherwise, it`s hard to offer a useful answer. 

 

I`m gay and have explored many of the paths people talk about here, and I`m balanced enough I guess.  

[Aetherous]

So is homosexuality accepted in Taoism because I keep on getting mix messages?

 

I think the pertinent question here is: what is Daoism? There are many different types.

 

I'm sure there are Daoist schools that frown on it or prohibit it...just as there are probably schools that don't at all.

 

And the schools can be: magical or ritualistic, philosophical, hermit-like, textual, alchemical, mystical and revelatory, etc. Daoism is a lot of different things, and you choose which way to go. I don't think there is a Daoist who legitimately does everything at once. Within each one of those trainings, there are probably differing schools of thought. I'm sure if you're homosexual you can find a form of Daoism that accepts it.

[Mandrake]

Great question.  I guess I`d mostly want to know whether the original question of energetic balance within homosexual relationships is purely theoretical or comes out of personal experience.  Otherwise, it`s hard to offer a useful answer. 

 

I`m gay and have explored many of the paths people talk about here, and I`m balanced enough I guess.  

 

Liminal_luke,

 

 

For you, it is natural to approach the question, it emerges from your being and path.

 

But in general, I am not for just freely dispensing knowledge to whoever wants to know piecemeal. There are sinister motives out there, and sinister questions when you look behind the words.

 

For example, look at all the topics the OP has asked. How are these cultivation, how are those connected to understanding a solid path for him/her in order to get solid progress?

 

And also - look at all the posters. You've run into it before - I am unfortunately sure - but there's a lot of bigotry and dead morality posturing as knowledge. For this is the thing, people crave vanity and power, and they want to appear as a person who "knows". So later on they can walk out into the real world and discuss homosexuality or something else even though it doesn't relate to them at all. A lot of gurus and teachers fall into this trap as well. They have some knowledge, but then believes they have to be infallible and have answers to everything, and come up with beliefs without any backing at all. Where do these come from? That old, festering ball of prejudice, morals from brainless philosophies and cultures formed by sociopaths (who don't tolerate differences), and lack of rationality.

 

A prime example is female cultivation. Out of all the cultivation litterature out there, a miniscule amount deals with the particulars of women cultivators. An embarassing small amount is about a woman's perspective of walking the path - what you encounter and have to handle in the inner and the outer world. This is the most precious thing to you in the world, you travel and sacrifice to find more insight in this, and there's almost nothing to find. But there are plenty of men there ready to give advice on the mentioned particulars, and how women can't have success due to reasons XYZ. Why? Not because they have direct insight and great enlightenment, but because of power dynamics, greed, prejudice, and cultural habits.

 

Now, imagine a gay cultivator. Tough. There's probably nothing out there because of the percentage of cultivators being so small. But again, because you are different, even people posing as more enlightened falling for the trap of "oh, you're different, and therefore it must be an abberation" will be more than willing to give out untested advice because it makes them feel powerful, needed, and esteemed.

So see through this bullshit. There's a lot of arrogant self-assurance from people who have no real knowledge at all. Worse: they insist that they know more than you who actually cultivate and are gay. Human stupidity is incredible.

 

A lot of the traditions - Daoist and other - was filled with old, straight men who bore a lot of cultural customs, understanding, and view of the world of that time. All that baggage isn't just suddenly dropped because they cultivate. So there's a lot of prejudice, bigotry and ignorance there - heck, I was a prejudiced bigot too.

Just look at some of the input here, "spirit disturbance," and compare with the fundamentalist Southern Baptist "Pray the Gay away," "Demon possession," "Conversion therapy" and similar, that repeatedly fails to be verified empirically and scientifically. It's the same shit, but with a Daoist flower on.

 

So to you liminal_luke, and all other in your and similar positions: Best of luck with your cultivation, and may you find people who are with you, and not well-meaning posers wearing sheep's skin.

 

 

Mandrake

 

 

[liminal_luke]

Mandrake,

 

Thank you for your well wishes on my cultivation, and your thoughtful post. It`s true that in the past I`ve encountered homophobic posts.  Not so much lately, thankfully.

 

In my opinion, your point about people wanting to puff themselves up and seem more expert than they are is spot-on.  There`s a surprising amount of very high level practitioners here willing to share knowledge, but it`s necessary to look carefully among the weeds to find the flowers.  That`s my experience anyways.

 

I don`t mind saying that I`m gay because I generally don`t get snagged into online negativity about that subject.  Been there, done that.  (My track record on other subjects is more spotty.)  

 

If a fellow Bum is gay and has questions about how sexuality integrates in with Taoist practice, I`m happy to share my experience.  

[Orion]

I've had amazing tantric experiences with other men, some of which were not even penetrative, which demonstrates to me that it has more to do with one's energy body than physical anatomy, something that people often conflate together. Lust is lust and waste is waste, doesn't matter who is partaking in it.

 

I feel that when hetero people talk in absolutes about spiritual sexuality, it's because they have been strongly glamoured by their own sexual reality, compounded by societal reinforcement -- just like how homosexuals subscribe to "gay". We are hardwired to feel good about our sex drive so that we copulate. My experience is that cultivation is not limited to one's physicality.

 

A Daoist "master" once told me that tantric copulation can only be achieved by a man and woman, once the tip of the penis touches the tip of the cervix because men are more yang and women more yin. I laughed. People really believe their own narratives about sexuality.

 

The best thing you can do is debunk your own narratives. Ask questions rather than seeking answers and you will find that a lot more is possible than you formerly thought.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Orion

[liminal_luke]

I've had amazing tantric experiences with other men, some of which were not even penetrative, which demonstrates to me that it has more to do with one's energy body than physical anatomy, something that people often conflate together. 

 

 Me too, Orion.  We`re all a mixture of yin and yang, regardless of gender, and when those qualities merge energetically interesting things happen.  

[dust]

My definition of expertness has nothing to do with benevolence and righteousness; it means being expert in regard to your Virtue, that is all.

 

My definition of expertness has nothing to do with benevolence or righteousness; it means following the true form of your inborn nature, that is all.

 

When I speak of good hearing, I do not mean listening to others; I mean simply listening to yourself. When I speak of good eyesight, I do not mean looking at others; I mean simply looking at yourself.

 

He who does not look at himself but looks at others, who does not get hold of himself but gets hold of others, is getting what other men have got and failing to get what he himself has got.

 

He finds joy in what brings joy to other men, but finds no joy in what would bring joy to himself. And if he finds joy in what brings joy to other men, but finds no joy in what would bring joy to himself, then whether he is a Robber Chih or a Po Yi he is equally deluded and perverse.

 

I have a sense of shame before the Way and its Virtue, and for that reason I do not venture to raise myself up in deeds of benevolence and righteousness, or to lower myself in deluded and perverse practices.

 

 

 

Zhuangzi doesn't get the deciding judgement on what is and what is not to be considered 'Taoist' -- nobody does. But he's well worth asking. I believe he would tell a gay person to follow their nature, else risk being perverse. Blind attachment to a simplistic understanding of 'yin' and 'yang' be damned.

[gendao]

A lot of vague notions about "balance" and sexual morality here...

 

But technically-speaking, if men preserve their jing by retaining their semen...then shouldn't they also be able to gain jing by ingesting others' semen?  Should Daoist adepts be chugging espresso shots of cum to kickstart every morning?  And would, say, bull semen have more jing than human semen?

Do promiscuous women or gay men tend to have large reservoirs of jing?

[liminal_luke]

A lot of vague notions about "balance" and sexual morality here...

 

But technically-speaking, if men preserve their jing by retaining their semen...then shouldn't they also be able to gain jing by ingesting others' semen?  Should Daoist adepts be chugging espresso shots of cum to kickstart every morning?  And would, say, bull semen have more jing than human semen?

Do promiscuous women or gay men tend to have large reservoirs of jing?

 

Ummm....I don`t think it works that way Gendao.  If memory serves, Taomeow once talked about the common misconception that the actual substance of semen was jing.  (In the interview section I believe, if you want to go look for it.)  No doubt, how we deal with our erotic energy influences our jing, but it`s quite a bit more complicated than some retaining enthusiasts would have us believe.  No horse semen shots for me, thanks.

Edited March 13, 2017 by liminal_luke